Firefighters and CO

[Captain 402 3]

Lately Ive talked w/ several Firefighters /Officers and there seems to be a some complacency when dealing w/ CO. There was a recent "PUff back" in a private dwelling and a CO reading was never taken, several hours later a young occupant was being treated in the ER for possible poisioning.I know the Officer and crew to be heads up guys,so point being dont forget the basics!

Things to consider: -Does your monitor read %or LEL ? Readig the display doesnt help if u dont know what your lookig at!

-Always have your Scott! u cant help w/your a victim!

-What are the acceptable levels before you take action ie EMS,evacuate, vent

-Be aware of EMS calls especially this time of year!Is it the Flu or CO?

- If there is a reading you must locate the cause if u need help call! Con Ed is always available.

- If vented by occupants have them stand fast and locate the thermostat ,activate thiere furnace/gas app. then take another reading

- Eliminate outside sources- I went to a M/D and found the source to be a temporary boiler paked alongside the building w/ its exhaust at the 3 floor window. Be safe !!! Know your job !

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Great post Captain!

[hudson144 150]

if you are in doubt and are not sure that your co detector is accurate put a call into con-ed. they will come out even if the structure does not have gas. Con-ed calibrates the detectors more often than the fire depts and they are willing to help!

[res6cue 67]

Good info, especially this bit...

- If vented by occupants have them stand fast and locate the thermostat ,activate thiere furnace/gas app. then take another reading

You can have the best meter on the planet, but it's not going to do much good if all the windows are wide open and the furnace (if that's indeed the source) has been off for 20 minutes! My advice in that situation is to evacuate all the occupants, pack up, go inside and turn the furnace back on, button up all the windows and doors and let it sit for a few minutes. NOW you can go back in with the meter to obtain more accurate readings.

Remember, even a small amount of CO can be toxic, so PACK UP AND GO ON AIR BEFORE ENTERING!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Res6cue brings up a good point. What that is called when you can find no source is called creating a worse case scenario where you turn on every fuel burning appliance in the residence. Before getting that far, it is a good practice to talk to occupants to recreate what was occuring when the alarm activated.

The only thing we do different is we do no pack up prior to entering. We open the door and stick the meter in and take a reading. We do not don our SCBA until readings are 35 ppm or above. (This is the level your meter will alarm at also generally) At one point and I do not know if it has been changed, I read Chicago FD's policy and it stated they do not don SCBA until it reaches 100 ppm. We require occupants to leave at any level above 9 ppm and a utility is also contacted at that level. That is in line with EPA standards, which at that level chronic exposure of 24 hours can create symptons. The 45 ppm level that we use in our policy is in line with OSHA's TWA, which protects responders in the event that you respond to multiple CO alarms in a 8 hour period.

The biggest thing that I stress with these types of alarms is patience. For some time before CO detector technology got better, they were looked at as nuisance alarms, because the amount of false activations we received, or perceived to be false from improper investigations. This is and has to be a very methodical investigation to protect the occupants. I wrote a class on CO and CO investigations to better responses to such.

Anyone who wants more info on CO investigations, BC Frank Montagna, covers them very well in his book "Responding to Routine Emergencies." It is available from the Academy of Fire Science Book Store, at the FA in Montour Falls. I believe you may get a discount on it, but either way there is no tax and they ship it free if you buy it from there.

[res6cue 67]

The only thing we do different is we do no pack up prior to entering. We open the door and stick the meter in and take a reading.  We do not don our SCBA until readings are 35 ppm or above.

I think the point I was trying to get across was don't run in there blind. I've seen guys walk right in without letting the meter warm up, or even worse, ahead of the guy who's still getting the meter off the truck! Not good.

Our dept packs up before entering if the occupants are reporting symptoms. The reasoning is that we can go on air, shut ourselves inside and walk around with the meter to get more accurate reading throughout the structure, not just a small sampling at the door. I can recall a few times it was relatively clear near the doorway, but the basement was reading high PPM. The concern is that guys may have a false sense of security in a situation like that, where the reading is low at the door.

[robert benz 344]

we also added co meters to our ems bags so if we get the call for "flu like symptoms" and it really is co the meters go off

[hudson144 150]

what do you have in those bags for hangovers???? lol

[Remember585 815]

Good topic!

Our SOG is pretty simple.

The meter is to be warmed up and zeroed out prior to entering the building.

Personnel entering must be in PPE w/ SCBA on their back.

The officer of the crew must bring in the CO checklist, and document readings in various areas.

Should their be a reading above 35 PPM personnel are to don their SCBA.

After the incident, all meters are to be zeroed out before shutting down.

Findings are to be reported to the occupant / owner.

Apparatus for CO Calls

No symptoms - Rescue & 1 Engine

With Symptoms - Rescue, Engine, Truck, EMS

Keep in mind that CO is very, VERY present during overhaul. Make sure you have a meter with your personnel and if the levels are high - WEAR THE SCBA. There's no reason nor any glory in going home with that "awesome" headache courtesy of the CO we ignored.

[Captain 402 3]

Protect yourself is to turn on your bottle ,even if you dont think youll need it. If u have intergrated pass alarms and go down it will alert.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Bob, we've been trying to get those for us as well and trying to talk more EMS agencies to invest in them as well.

[FirNaTine 370]

Probably one of the most important things with regards to this topic is knowing your meter(s) and how they operate, and that includes knowing how to convert ppm to percentages and vice versa, like Capt.402 mentioned. How many individuals actually even know that the percentage recorded on the meter is the percentage of the LEL of the gas and not the percentage of the gas itself? For instance, if your meter reads 5% of Natural Gas, it's not actually 5% NG, it's 5% of NG's LEL of 5% which means the actual concentration of NG is .25% well below the explosive range of NG which is 5% -15%. Therefore you only have to be concerned of an explosive concentration in this instance when your meter reads 100%, or to play it safe 80%. Tell me this $hit isn't important to know! You'll have guys walking into an explosive atmosphere thinking it's too rich to burn because they have no idea how to interpret their meter. Let's not even get into converting readings into ppm.

Edited November 11, 2006 by TPWS

[antiquefirelt 994]

Our meters read CO in PPM and % LEL is based on the calibration gas (LPG). Our procedures are very similar to ALS Firefighter's. SCBA on back all the time, don mask at 35 PPM. Occupants warned to leave at 9 PPM, requested to leave >35 PPM. We also bought CO meters for all EMS kits to warn us on the flu-like symptoms. Additionally, we run the new Massimo RAD that reads SPCO!! Very cool! Non-invasive CO/blood readings that the Hospital will believe. This could have convinced the pregnant 19 yoa girl who we made leave her apt. after finding reading over 180 PPM! She didn't want to go to the hospital to be checked out. It took about a half an hour to convince her of the dangers of CO to her and her fetus. With the RAD we could show the level of CO in the blood and made a more convincing arguement.

[IzzyEng4 427]

what do you have in those bags for hangovers???? lol

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Two 1200cc bags with a wide open 18 gauge and two Advil AND A VERY BRIGHT FLASHLIGHT, to mess with you!! LOL

But seriously though, how many times have we rolled up to a CO call and think "routine false alarm?" We got bit in the but one night long ago and had readings in the 300+ ppm when we got to a close door and people did not have any symptoms upon dispatches initial report. As soon as they hit fresh air BAM! they started to experience symptoms. My question is how can that happen!?!?!?! It did, unbelivable but it did.

Just for all you to know, yes the people called up 911 and were instructed to leave the building however they did not and lied to the dispatcher (it was winter and they didn't have a warm place to go to as they later explained). All the people there were very lucky. We traced the problem to a oil furnace that was malfunctioning after being repaired earlier in the day. Also there was 100 ppm residual in the neighboring apartment (the "hot zone" was an end unit).

[Jason762 2]

For instance, if your meter reads 5% of Natural Gas, it's not actually 5% NG, it's 5% of NG's LEL of 5% which means the actual concentration of NG is .25% well below the explosive range of NG which is 5% -15%. Therefore you only have to be concerned of an explosive concentration in this instance when your meter reads 100%, or to play it safe 80%.

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While you are right about the fact that on most meters we carry in the fire service the reading on the LEL is a % of the LEL, not the actual % of gas in air, you are completely and dangerously wrong about when it is time to back out. The standard is that at 10% of the LEL inside a building and at 20% outside we vantialte and/or leave the area. Staying inside until you get to the 80-100% range is crazy and irresponsibly dangerous. Do you want to stand in an explosive enviornment? Not me.... This is why FF's get hurt, those that are leading the way, not knowing their job.

The reading you are getting is what the mixture is where you are standing and at where you are holding the meter. It may be at a much higher level only a few feet away from you (possibly up or down not just in front of you, another reason to know the characteristics of the gas you are dealing with, vapor density, LEL to UEL ranges, etc.). That is why the safety factors where built in, to leave at a lower level and stay far away from the danger zone. Also know what gas the meter was calibrated to. Most are not calibrated to methane (many are pentane or another gas) and there are conversion factors that should be used to figure that actual % of LEL. Also utilize your gas companies as mich as possible. Many of them carry gas in air % meters that actually show the % of gas in the air, and they are calibrated to methane, and they are actually calibrated often and properly which I don't know if that can be said for meters in some FD's.

You guys have been right that many people may look at a meter and have no idea what they are looking at, but how many of us really know how to safely use these meters. Educate yourselves before you get hurt.

[FirNaTine 370]

While you are right about the fact that on most meters we carry in the fire service the reading on the LEL is a % of the LEL, not the actual % of gas in air, you are completely and dangerously wrong about when it is time to back out.  The standard is that at 10% of the LEL inside a building and at 20% outside we vantialte and/or leave the area.  Staying inside until you get to the 80-100% range is crazy and irresponsibly dangerous.  Do you want to stand in an explosive enviornment?  Not me....  This is why FF's get hurt, those that are leading the way, not knowing their job.

  The reading you are getting is what the mixture is where you are standing and at where you are holding the meter.  It may be at a much higher level only a few feet away from you (possibly up or down not just in front of you, another reason to know the characteristics of the gas you are dealing with, vapor density, LEL to UEL ranges, etc.).  That is why the safety factors where built in, to leave at a lower level and stay far away from the danger zone.  Also know what gas the meter was calibrated to.  Most are not calibrated to methane (many are pentane or another gas) and there are conversion factors that should be used to figure that actual % of LEL.  Also utilize your gas companies as mich as possible.  Many of them carry gas in air % meters that actually show the % of gas in the air, and they are calibrated to methane, and they are actually calibrated often and properly which I don't know if that can be said for meters in some FD's.

  You guys have been right that many people may look at a meter and have no idea what they are looking at, but how many of us really know how to safely use these meters.  Educate yourselves before you get hurt.

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Where did I say in my post you should stay in an atmosohere that's 80%-100%? What I said was if the guys don't know how to accurately read the meter they're using, they might think it's O.K to be in such an atmosphere because it's well above the explosive range(too rich), not knowing they are actually within the gas' explosive range because that % is a % of the LEL. I think you may have misunderstood my post.

[Jason762 2]

Unless I am misinterpreting this sentence, you are saying right here that you only have to be concerned with LEL readings when they get up to the 80+% range...

Therefore you only have to be concerned of an explosive concentration in this instance when your meter reads 100%, or to play it safe 80%.

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What I said was if the guys don't know how to accurately read the meter they're using, they might think it's O.K to be in such an atmosphere because it's well above the explosive range(too rich), not knowing they are actually within the gas' explosive range because that % is a % of the LEL.

And it is never okay to be in an atmosphere that is within or above the expolsive range...

Edited November 12, 2006 by Jason762

[Fireman488 57]

In addition to CO meters on our EMS bags, all officers have personal CO meters on their radio straps.

Personally, I located a defective oil burner, while in the basement of a commercial occupancy investigating an unrelated incident.

Personal CO meters are worth their weight in gold.

[FirNaTine 370]

Unless I am misinterpreting this sentence, you are saying right here that you only have to be concerned with LEL readings when they get up to the 80+% range...

And it is never okay to be in an atmosphere that is within or above the expolsive range...

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Depends on the circumstances: life hazard, access to control valves, ability to control sources of ignition, etc. etc.