Smooth Bore vs Automatic/Fog/etc

[FirNaTine 370]

Pushing heat and hot gases out a well timed vented window and away from the nozzle team.  Breaking thermal layers, thus negating the chance of flashover.   Placing the nozzle between the fire and any means of egress that must be protected.  All of these help extinguish the fire quickly and effectively.  These are all tasks which are preformed well with a TFT.

If your fires are'nt going out then maybe you have to look at your tactics.  Was it a one line fire?  Could we have used a second line?  Was the fire vented well giving the nozzle team a good chance on making a push?

GPM?  Fireflow?  The Iowa formula?  Even if your gonna do the math, should'nt you just know "we need a second line"  or a third!  Way to often only one line is stretched.  Maybe a delayed second line might show up.  Even if there is fire on an entire floor of a two and a half story.  If the nozzle team makes a good push and the fire is vented well (self vented)  Then I've seen these fires go out.  Nobody will say"we should of had a smoothbore nozzle"  But if the fire goes through the roof everybody blames the TFT for lack of GPM.    But how about asking where was the second or third line?

Adding a new peice of equipment to your arsenal is'nt always the answer.  Tactics and abilitys must be up to par.  No sense in reinventing the wheel, just fix the flat and drive on.

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Well said brother! It's like the guys who can't use a halligan correctly and want to blame the type and design, not the jackass using it incorrectly! Oh, I know the answer, let's go buy the new titanium halligans, they'll get the door open quicker. Yeah Right! Wake up boyz!

Edited November 11, 2006 by TPWS

[FirNaTine 370]

Fellows, check out Firehouse Magazine, March 1992's article by John Norman on Jobs in F/P M/Ds. Not only does he make reference to using a 2 1/2" line w/ a fog tip as a backup line he mentions placing a fan in the F/S on poss.pressure to further push the products of combustion away from the hose team and out the windows. This may have to be done on rare occassions, and is not the norm which I thought I also clarified. As far as the other example I gave, I still haven't found it in the Firehouse Magazine archives yet but I promise I will for all the non-believers. P.S I don't recall myself saying you must use a fog nozzle at all times, whether the job is a standpipe job or not. What I said was you should have the capability of using either at your side and not be looking for the necessary equipment when the $hit is hitting the fan, especially if your 20 stories up Anyway, I better get going to my kids soccer game. Stay Safe!

Edited November 11, 2006 by TPWS

[Guest alsfirefighter]

ltrob. I agree with what you are saying. I am just not a fan of automatic nozzles and I think my points are valid as to why. I've never blamed a nozzle for having to back out during an interior attack, you're right it often involved poor timing on other tactics that needed to be performed or the fire got a good hold without either a timely stretch by the second line or no time due to fire involvement or building construction features that allowed the fire to extend rapidly to other areas. With that, I still have to say nuts and bolts, there are more pros for smoothbore then fog where I work and play.

TPWS...lol. You're right on about sometimes it aint the game its the player. But those Paratech hooligan's suck @ss. Their design is extremely poor, and the forged halligans work much better/efficiently.

[robert benz 344]

I may be somewhat biased here, as my department uses exclusively Smooth Bore for structural fire fighting, and has since long before I joined. I have never had any experience outside of a controlled training environment with Fog Nozzles in a structural environment. I have been at several drills where we have done side by side comparisons, and I much prefer Smooth Bore Nozzles.

As for other topics, a site like this is all about brotherhood, and part of that is sharing meals, discussing differences and similarities between departments (which includes apparatus color). Someone’s like of die cast collectibles or fire photography does not make them any less of a Firefighter or any less dedicated to training hard and coming home alive. But that home would be very boring if I didn't have outside interests to come home to, and the firehouse would be very boring if I didn't share many of those outside interests with my brother firefighters.

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NOBODY PREACHES BROTHERHOOD MORE THAN ME, OR LIKES A GOOD MEAL MORE THAN I DO, BUT DONT YOU AGREE THERE IS A SEVERE LACK OF EXPERENCE IN THE FIRE SERVICE TODAY? WITH THE VAST KNOWLEDGE OF THE MEMBERS OF THIS WEBITE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THE FIRE SERVICE WILL GET MORE THAN ENOUGH ANSWERS. AND THATS THE PROBLEM, SOME NEW FIREFIGHTERS DONT ASK THE QUESTIONS THAT WILL MAKE THEM BETTER FIREFIGHTERS, THEY ACT LIKE THEY KNOW IT ALL, OR EXPECT YOU TO TELL THEM AFTER THEY SCREW UP A BASIC EVOLUTION. YEAH THERE IS A PLACE FOR "STUFF" BUT ONLY AFTER YOU LEARN YOUR JOB, AND PERFECT YOUR SKILLS

REMEMBER WE ARE STILL HAVING FIREFIGHTERS DIE AT ABOUT 1 EVERY 3 DAYS OR SO AND THAT IS THE POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE

[Guest]

NOBODY PREACHES BROTHERHOOD MORE THAN ME, OR LIKES A GOOD MEAL MORE THAN I DO, BUT DONT YOU AGREE THERE IS A SEVERE LACK OF EXPERENCE IN THE FIRE SERVICE TODAY? WITH THE VAST KNOWLEDGE OF THE MEMBERS OF THIS WEBITE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THE FIRE SERVICE WILL GET MORE THAN ENOUGH ANSWERS. AND THATS THE PROBLEM, SOME NEW FIREFIGHTERS DONT ASK THE QUESTIONS THAT WILL MAKE THEM BETTER FIREFIGHTERS, THEY ACT LIKE THEY KNOW IT ALL, OR EXPECT YOU TO TELL THEM AFTER THEY SCREW UP A BASIC EVOLUTION. YEAH  THERE IS A PLACE FOR "STUFF"  BUT ONLY AFTER YOU LEARN YOUR JOB, AND PERFECT YOUR SKILLS

REMEMBER WE ARE STILL HAVING FIREFIGHTERS DIE AT ABOUT 1 EVERY 3 DAYS OR SO    AND THAT IS THE POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE

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hey there robert benz...i totally agree, and brings me back a long time ago to a topic i started discussing new firefighters nowadays, which brought out some very good constructive opinions, as well as some tensions, haha....ah well, it is what it is!

[antiquefirelt 994]

TPWS: Trust me I didn't mean or believe that you can't fight fires with fog nozzles. All said and done, I'm sure more fire is extinguished each day by fog nozzles. I just think we need to try and dispel some of the myths in this age old debate. As has been stated quality firefighters and good leadership make the fire go out better than any one tool.

[MH0109 1]

Ok, guys, you got me. I am one of the lurkers on this board as Mr. Bravo would say. I have no choice but to speak on this issue. I have been in the fire service a few years now, and I have seen this issue from both sides. I joined the Volunteer service in the late 80`s and boy, was fog huge in my dept. I really love all the training that was provided to me as a new firefighter, because you learn how fire will behave in a burning building while training in a parking lot. After I took some classes and met the late Andrew Fredericks in the early 90`s, I was sold on the smooth bore and have been a advocate of the use of this nozzle and this nozzle alone inside burning buildings. I know what you will all say- the automatic nozzle will put out the fire, and you are right, it will eventually go out. All fire will, once the fuel is gone. I have heard all the theories, but I have seen what can go wrong when not used as intended. For example, I have seen members burned because the nozzle was set to fog instead of straight stream. It moved during the stretch to the fire. I have also seen first hand the air created by the narrow fog pattern move the fire from one room to another. This presents a problem when it is the job of nozzle team to protect the stairs and members operating above. You don’t want that fire moving around. I will also add that the maintenance required for the automatic nozzle is troublesome. Not many departments service them. Are you getting the desired flow from you fog nozzle? I highly doubt you are getting what you think you are. When we tested ours out here, we were surprised to see only 100 gpm when we thought it was going to be around 150 gpm. As for the high rise discussion, you must be kidding me if you are using a fog nozzle off of any stand pipe. They we never designed for the use of anything less than 2 ½” hose and the smooth bore nozzle, period. Any other combination in the high rise setting is flat out dangerous. In my Department we have spent the last 3 years changing our SOG`S to show the above changes in High rise Ops. Funny thing about that is that our tallest building currently is only 5 stories. We use 2 ½” hose with the peoples’ choice nozzle- “Smooth Bore” and the engine staffing is only 3. It can be done- we do it. I will have you reference Fire Engineering May 2005- “Engine Company Standpipe Operations: Tactical Use of the 2 ½” Hand Line, Part 1” by Chief David McGrail. Lastly, I leave you with a part of a presentation we just did as a committee to our Chief Officers for required fire flow in a burning structure. We have to be flowing 180 gpm inside a burning building, period. A true smooth bore will provide this flow with only 50 psi at the tip. A fog nozzle is not able to achieve this within a manageable pump discharge pressure. We have placed on our number 1 crosslay a true Smooth Bore, and the number 2 crosslay will have a automatic nozzle for that outside fire stuff that is a break apart nozzle with a 15/16” tip. The last 1 ¾” line we now have for interior structural firefighting is on a complex hose load. This is a static bed with 600’ 2 ½” gated wye down to 150’ of 1 ¾” with a smooth Bore Nozzle. I have spent a better part of the last 15 years of my life studying and trying new things out on the topic of Smooth vs fog, and I can say we have a lot of things to do on the fire ground. The best way I have found to do them safely is put a lot of water on the fire early, and most of your problems start to go away. Remember the old saying, “A hose line that is not moving, is losing.” The fog nozzle offers you very little in protection in, on or around a burning building regardless of what you have heard about that. Use the reach, penetration and knock down power of the Smooth Bore Nozzle and put the fire out. Now you can go to your favorite deli and grab that sandwich everyone has been talking about. Thank you all for your time.

[FirNaTine 370]

Check out the 2nd paragraph down on page 405 in FDNY DC John Norman's book, "Fire Officer's Handbook of Tactics" with regards to jobs in F/P, M/Ds. that may occassionaly need to be faught using unusual tactics, due to unusual circumstances. On that note, GOOD BUY and GOOD LUCK.

[Scottyk107 9]

I saw that someone mentioned the diffrence on pre piped ladders or tower's using a fog or smooth bore. From what it seems smooth bore is the choice on interior firefighting but what about on master streams? The pre piped ladders and towers seem to be split 50/50 on what kind of nozzle they carry. Seeing as I live in florida most of the year we dont have many aerial's here so never hear to much about it. All of our ground monitors are also split between fog and smooth bore any reasoning for it?how about exposure lines? Our deck guns and monitors are rarely used so dont know much about them. thanks for the info in advanced guys

[res6cue 67]

We carry both smoothbore and fog tips for our master streams. I like having the fog for exposure protection, but nothing beats the smoothbore for penetration and hydraulic overhaul.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Scotty, as far as master streams go, many of the same principles still apply. There are good articles out there that discuss this and I prefer again, stack tip smooth bore over a fog nozzle for a master stream device due to the following.

Nozzle pressures again:

Smooth bore master stream: 80 psi

Automatic/Fog Nozzle: 100 psi

Penetration again. Fog nozzles create water droplets that are severly effected by wind and they will convert to steam before much of it hits the base of the fire. I've heard every excuse as to why to have it on there, but facts are it just doesn't give you as good of a quality, deep penetrating stream due to numerous factors and again, there isn't any tactic that you would have to perform with a fog nozzle on a master stream that wouldn't work with the smooth bore. The only exception I can think of is if you had to conduct a hasty mass decon operation.

Figures don't lie: 200' 5" hose, flowing to a deluge gun flowing 1000 gpm through a fog nozzle: PDP: 112 psi

Same lay with a 2" smooth bore tip delivering the same flow: 62 psi

Now, don't get overly into this, but the moral of the story is your pump doesn't have to work as hard. Your still flowing the same water, but your gonna be able to do more with the water you're delivering with a better stream. Particulary with elevated master streams. More pressure doesn't equal more volume, that is a common misconception.

Additionally, our pumpers are rated at 100% at 150 psi total pump discharge pressure. If you don't utilize LDH to feed an aerial or a deluge gun, you will need mulitple 2 1/2" or 3" supply lines to the device to achieve higher gpm rates. With these smaller lines, you will be lucky to get close to 1000 gpm's if you need it with a fog nozzle, because you will start to get above the 150 psi range and you will start to lose a percentage of your flow.

[res6cue 67]

there isn't any tactic that you would have to perform with a fog nozzle on a master stream that wouldn't work with the smooth bore.  The only exception I can think of is if you had to conduct a hasty mass decon operation.

As I stated in my post right above yours, I've used a fog nozzle master stream as a water curtain to protect a nearby exposure. You definitely cannot accomplish that with a smoothbore.

[Guest]

while operating with a department that has a TL. i saw that they had a fog nozzel in one of the compartments. when i asked what it was used for i was told that it is really only used for decon.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

A water curtain? Your right I can't accomplish that with a smoothbore, and I wouldn't want to attempt it. Radiant heat can only be absorbed by a solid object, that is why actual water curtain devices don't exist, they were found to actually magnify the electromagnetic energy (radiant heat) making it worse. The way to protect an exposure is with direct water contact. If the impinging fire has more energy then those fancy little drops of water in a fog pattern, it will win. Smoothbore to me wins again, water will run down the wall, and at a greater flow, with less nozzle reaction on a 2 1/2" line. Again, exposure protection is on the high priority list under incident priority #2: incident stabilization. What are you going to do when your "fog" won't reach from the apparatus mounted deck gun to the exposure?

Recently had a fire which involved the under construction 2nd floor addition of a building that formed the rear section of a "L" shaped structure. It was all exposed framing that was fully involved and I'm talking 100% involvement, not the "fully involved" that some of us have seen called out anymore. The front seciton that came to the road, roof was visibibly starting to offgas. What was used by me to protect that exposure? a 1 1/2" tip off my deck gun at 600 gpm. Would have had a hard time making a fog nozzle on straight stream reach that back section of the roof at the corner because of where we were positioned due to the radiant heat and staying out of the collapse zone.

Edited November 12, 2006 by alsfirefighter

[ny10570 745]

When you talk about a job requiring handlines to cover multiple exposures this usally means a a pretty significant fire. Thats alot of work for not alot of hands. I'd rather be able to cover each exposure with one man on a 21/2" with a smooth bore than two guys fighting a fog tip.

[Guest LAGRANGEFF40]

all i can say is there's not much to argue when it comes to tactics, and fire ground ops when alsfirefighter is in the discussion. ALS ITS ALWAYS GOOD TO READ WHAT YOU PREACH STAY SAFE BROTHER !

4-2

[MH0109 1]

I want to thank alsfirefighter for his words of wisdom on this issue. I will restate what he already said in a minute. First I read the fire officers’ hand book of tactics, and he recommends the fog tip in conjunction with the smooth bore in a fire proof m/d. I will still have to ask why? If the fire is overpowering the first smooth bore and he wants to stretch a second line, why not use another smooth bore? At 286 gpm per line, depending on the tip, size why waste time with a nozzle that has no business being up there anyway? As mentioned before, stand pipes were never designed for the use of 100 psi fog nozzles. Now, for the Master stream question. Like Als said, Smooth bore for the application of copious amounts of water. The use of a fog nozzle as I stated in my above post offers no protection in, on or around a burning building. When fog is used as an exposure protection line, all you are achieving is an increase in the relative humidity on the fire ground. It is the job of the Engine Company to put water on the fire and on the Exposure, if that is what’s tactically needed to be addressed on the fire ground. You achieve this by using a smooth bore nozzle with the direct application of water on the object being protected.

Thank you all again for your time

Stay safe

FTM PTB DTRT EGH

[hudson144 150]

whats a 2 1/2????? where i work its rare to see a deuce n a half used,manpower is the answer that I have heard for years, 1 3/4 attacking a heavy involved structure is like peeing off my boat into that nw wind which is always blowing!!! if you don't flow enough people will get hurt and the fire will not go out.

[RWC130 594]

I use a WATER CAN!