Smooth Bore vs Automatic/Fog/etc

[ny10570 745]

Sorry, but I've got to drag this dead horse out here once again. I keep on seeing people go back and forth between what seems like smooth bore vs everyone else. Me, I'm in the smooth bore camp, so I'm trying to find out what it is that I am missing. Here's what I know...

Flow - All things equal you will always get more water out of a smooth bore. It is a clear opening to the hose line. I have yet to see any other nozzle that can match the flow of a smooth bore given equal pump pressure.

Reaction Pressure - Reaction pressure is generated by the friction of the water passing through the nozzel. In a smooth bore the friction is generated by the narrowing of the waterway. It is also this pressure that propels the water and gives the stream its reach. With an automatic there is significantly more reaction pressure due to the more complicated waterway.

Pump pessure - When faced with a weak hydrant or a long stretch the 50 psi difference between smooth bore and automatics can go a long way. 180 gpm through 1 3/4" gets an extra 100'. Not bad for those of us out there that love our mile long cross lays out there. And for those with garbage hydrant pressure who can barely fill a hand line without collapsing the water mains, it also makes a difference.

Reach - I always hear about how automatics and TFT's maintain a great stream with good penetration even at low pressure. But at low pressure you don't have the GPM to make a difference in the fire. I'll go as far to say that you are going to get into trouble and get hurt if you go into a fire without enough water.

Heat absorption - Water puts fire out by removing heat and cooling the environment. The larger the surface area of the water being introduced into the area the more heat the water absorbs and the faster the environment is cooled. The smaller droplets from automatic nozzles absorb too much heat and convert to steam. This conversion does little to remove heat from the environment and will cause a thermal inversion. The large drops created by bouncing a solid stream off a ceiling are effective at absorbing heat and since they do not convert to steam; they can remove the heat without disrupting the thermal balance.

Deploying - Now this is more subjective, but it is definitely easier to move a charged line with 50psi less pressure in it. The debate is over kinks in the line. Personally I would rather have a line I can operate effectively alone so that with two we can move it with little effort. Then you can send the third man to ensure there are no kinks. With the harder higher pressure line sure, you can handle it on your own, but how well can you advance it. With water flowing you're going to need three people and it is much harder.

Maintenance - Unless you break the bail clean off you can do whatever you want to and flow what ever you want through a smooth bore. Debris can kill an automatic and you have to ensure they are properly adjusted.

Versatility - The automatics and combination nozzles can flow straight streams, fog, and anything in between. In a fire you only want a straight stream. If you open up the fog you are going to kill a victim in the room and you're going to steam you and your crew. If you want to vent the room a partially cracked smooth bore can still do the job. I have even heard people say they want the fog so they can put up a curtain of water to protect themselves when things go bad. IT DOES NOT WORK. All it does is convert instantly to steam and cook you. Ask anyone who's been around 15 or 20 yrs about the water curtain device. They were suppose to protect exposures. They are gone for a reason.

If you’re still reading, thanks for putting up with this. I look forward to your replies.

[robert benz 344]

thanks for a good read, every firefighter should be aware of the tools he has at his disposal, and why!! there are still dept using fog nozzles in apt/ standpipe packs. and i hear the "fog' theory alway come up. Put the fire out and then worry about venting not the other way around.

THERE ARE A LOT OF YOUNG FIREFIGHTERS READING THIS WEBSITE YET MOST OF WHAT I SEE IS ABOUT WHAT COLOR A RIG IS AND WHAT KIND OF LIGHT IS ON YOUR CAR, NOW IT IS ABOUT BEST FOOD SPOTS!!

WAKE UP LEARN YOUR JOB EVERYBODY GOES HOME

[Captain 402 3]

I agree w/ Benz lets get good info out for each other . NOT nonsense try "MY SPACE " for food listings!

[capt36 9]

thanks for a good read, every firefighter should be aware of the tools he has at his disposal, and why!! there are still dept using fog nozzles in apt/ standpipe packs. and i hear the "fog' theory alway come up.  Put the fire out and then worry about venting not the other way around.

THERE ARE A LOT OF YOUNG FIREFIGHTERS READING THIS WEBSITE  YET MOST OF WHAT I SEE IS ABOUT WHAT COLOR A RIG IS AND WHAT KIND OF LIGHT IS ON YOUR CAR,  NOW IT IS ABOUT BEST FOOD SPOTS!! 

WAKE UP    LEARN YOUR JOB      EVERYBODY GOES HOME

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Nice article Bobby and I would have to agree with you. Twenty plus years ago we were sold a lot of B.S. about TFTs and adjustable flow nozzles. We tested them on day one and our biggest guy was lifted off his feet. And this was in the parking lot of quarters, let alone advancing the line into a building. I think it's time to re-think our position on fog nozzles and their use on the fireground.

P.S. Graduation day on Dec. 8 at 1000 hours. Thanks for your assistance.

[DCurtis 1]

Benz is absolutely correct, its time to get our priorities strait and do things the right way.

[res6cue 67]

THERE ARE A LOT OF YOUNG FIREFIGHTERS READING THIS WEBSITE YET MOST OF WHAT I SEE IS ABOUT WHAT COLOR A RIG IS AND WHAT KIND OF LIGHT IS ON YOUR CAR, NOW IT IS ABOUT BEST FOOD SPOTS!!

Another unfair and gross over generalization of what goes on around here. There are plenty of threads containing valuable information, as well as the spinoff fireemsalpha.com site that is specifically designed to introduce thought provoking topics.

If you (or anyone else here) aren't satisfied with the quality of the content that is being posted on this site, then you have two choices as I see it:

1. Contribute some threads yourself instead of criticizing the existing ones. I see only two threads that you've started, and only one of them was thought provoking (according to your standards).

2. Don't visit or post here.

Incidentally, I find some irony in the fact that you yourself started the "Firefighter Recipe" thread.

[robert benz 344]

YOU ARE RIGHT I DID START THAT THREAD AND IT WENT NOWHERE, BUT AS A MEMBER OF THE FIRE SERVICE FOR OVER 25 YRS AND DAMN PROUD OF WHAT I HAVE DONE TO BETTER MYSELF AND EVERY FIREFIGHTER I HAVE TRAINED I THINK IT IS TIME TO PUT OUR PRIORTIES IN ORDER AND I WILL START THREADS ON TIPS AND TRAINING FOR THE FIREFIGHTERS WHO WANT TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THE JOB BUT ARE AFRAID TO ASK.

I DIDNT THINK A THREAD ABOUT A DELI WAS WHY THIS SITE WAS DEVELOPED

BUT HEY, MAYBE I AM THE ONE WHO IS WRONG

[EMTbravo 312]

Thanks, res6cue. You hit the nail on the head.

I, or we, do everything we can to encourage professional, insightful, and constructive discussion on this forum. There are a great deal of different topics being discussed here, and just because some of them are off-topic, please don't generalize the entire forum that way.

The "Younger Firefighters" are more in tune with using the computer, that's why you see them here so much. I try hard to recruit and retain the more experienced vetrans of the fire and EMS service, to keep a balance and so that everyone can keep learning. However, a lot of the older members have trouble using a computer or the forum, which keeps them from posting as much as the younger members.

YOU ARE RIGHT I DID START THAT THREAD  AND IT WENT NOWHERE, BUT AS A MEMBER OF THE FIRE SERVICE FOR OVER 25 YRS  AND DAMN PROUD OF WHAT I HAVE DONE TO BETTER MYSELF AND EVERY FIREFIGHTER I HAVE TRAINED I THINK IT IS TIME TO PUT OUR PRIORTIES IN ORDER  AND I WILL START THREADS ON TIPS AND TRAINING FOR THE FIREFIGHTERS WHO WANT TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THE JOB BUT ARE AFRAID TO ASK.

Capt. Benz, I am glad to have you on this forum. Thank you! That's what this forum is primarily here for. If you want to write an article for FireEMSAlpha.com, please contact me at EMTBravo@EMTBravo.com

I DIDNT THINK A THREAD ABOUT A DELI WAS WHY THIS SITE WAS DEVELOPED

BUT HEY, MAYBE I AM THE ONE WHO IS WRONG

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I agree w/ Benz lets get good info out for each other . NOT nonsense try "MY SPACE " for food listings!

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Please don't bash this site's intentions or motives. The forum section you are referencing is called "The Lounge". It is intended for off-topic discussion. Off topic discussion forums are practially standard on many forums besides this one. It gives the members the chance to discuss other things amongst the community on this forum. This is a popular forum section, and provided to compliment the rest of the forum.

If you don't like it, then you can toggle "The Lounge" off, or don't read the threads.

Additionally, if you have comments or concerns about this forum, you can always contact me EMTBravo@EMTBravo.com. And please include a suggested solution to your complaint or concern. Please do not bash me or this site without giving me a chance or the benefit of the doubt.

And it seems no matter what I do with this forum, I cannot win or please everyone. But please know that I try. This forum gets bashed, all the time, mostly by those who are misinformed. I, and the moderators, spend hours and hours working on this site for everyones benefit, and it's only as good as the members make it to be.

[exmrvfc 0]

For a great history on smooth bores and why a lot of people think they are superior, read Andy Fredericks article "Little Drops of Water-50 years laters" in Fire Engineering (2/1/2000). For those that didn't know him, he was avid proponent of the smooth bore and FDNY Member in Squad 18. Andy also made a instructional video on the same topic that is available thru the OFPC training library. This information should be required training for all. Automatic nozzles have their uses but I am a firm believer in the smooth bores for all of the reasons stated earlier.

[robert benz 344]

Thanks, res6cue. You hit the nail on the head.

I, or we, do everything we can to encourage professional, insightful, and constructive discussion on this forum. There are a great deal of different topics being discussed here, and just because some of them are off-topic, please don't generalize the entire forum that way.

The "Younger Firefighters" are more in tune with using the computer, that's why you see them here so much. I try hard to recruit and retain the more experienced vetrans of the fire and EMS service, to keep a balance and so that everyone can keep learning. However, a lot of the older members have trouble using a computer or the forum, which keeps them from posting as much as the younger members.

Capt. Benz, I am glad to have you on this forum. Thank you! That's what this forum is primarily here for. If you want to write an article for FireEMSAlpha.com, please contact me at EMTBravo@EMTBravo.com

Please don't bash this site's intentions or motives. The forum section you are referencing is called "The Lounge". It is intended for off-topic discussion.  Off topic discussion forums are practially standard on many forums besides this one. It gives the members the chance to discuss other things amongst the community on this forum.  This is a popular forum section, and provided to compliment the rest of the forum. 

If you don't like it, then you can toggle "The Lounge" off, or don't read the threads.

Additionally, if you have comments or concerns about this forum, you can always contact me EMTBravo@EMTBravo.com. And please include a suggested solution to your complaint or concern. Please do not bash me or this site without giving me a chance or the benefit of the doubt.

And it seems no matter what I do with this forum, I cannot win or please everyone. But please know that I try.  This forum gets bashed, all the time, mostly by those who are misinformed. I, and the moderators, spend hours and hours working on this site for everyones benefit, and it's only as good as the members make it to be.

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dont get me wrong you guys run a very good site, and i am not faulting you or any of the moderators, yes there is a place for "stuff".

I see too many young ffs starting topics or responding to topics that dont benifit them as firefighters. I have been talking to other veterans of the fire service and we agree we have to do our part to start threads relating to the job. That is more of a fustration on my part, i dont care what color a rig is, who makes it , or what bells and whistles are on it can we drive it safely, pump it correctly, and place it where it is supposed to be.

so maybe it more of what isnt being asked by the younger members than what is

sorry for the rant

[Guest]

I can atest to Instuctor Benz being a great instructor. I took a class with him and took so much out of it as well as the rest of my class.

as for nazzel choice, i like smooth bore. one of the biggest reasons is that while crawling around with the hose i dont have to worry about changing the pattern of it. There have been times where i have seen firefighters checking to make sure the fog nozzel is set to straight stream outside before they enter, and by the time they reach the fire, the nozzel has worked its way towards the fog pattern.

Also if you have not seen or felt the affects of steam, then go to the flash over simulator in rockland and watch how fast everyone comes crawling out when the instructor opens the nozzel in a fog pattern. This was done purposely to show us what happens when a fog pattern is used. everyone came crawling out low and fast, no one wanted to be in there after the nob was opened in a fog patern.

now i have a question, i know fog nozzels can be used for venting and things of the sort. However, in every situation where i have witnessed a large fire, like a car fire or structure fire, straight streams have been used. Once the fire was mostly out and it was time to overhaul i have seen fog patterns used. In many of those situations where a smooth bore was used, and a fog type pattern was needed, the guy on the knob was able to get the job done by simply cracking open the knob a little. i have seen fog patterns used in very limmited activities, like for the propane christmas tree, for venting, and for protecting exposures from heat.

Are there many other situations where the fog pattern is used as the primary means to knock down the fire. and if not why do so many depatements have them on every rig and on some of the preconnects. i see fewer and fewer smooth bore nozzels and more and more fog nozzels but why. i know it is newer tecknology and more advanced because it can change from streight to fog but a very valubal lesson i was taught was, "old is better than new." yeah i know that doesnt apply to every thing but in a lot of cases the basics are better than what we have now.

Edited November 10, 2006 by eng158

[EMTbravo 312]

dont get me wrong  you guys run a very good site, and i am not faulting you or any of the moderators,  yes there is a place for "stuff".

I see too many young ffs starting topics or responding to topics that dont benifit them as firefighters. I have been talking to other veterans of the fire service and we agree we have to do our part to start threads relating to the job.  That is more of a fustration on my part, i dont care what color a rig is, who makes it , or what bells and whistles are on it  can we drive it safely, pump it correctly, and place it where it is supposed to be.

so maybe it more of what isnt being asked by the younger members than what is

sorry for the rant

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I absolutely agree with you. Believe me, I wish more of the younger members and those "lurkers" would participate in more of the professional and educational discussions as well, but that's up to them and beyond my control. I'm doing everything I can to encourage it, though. I too feel that some aren't really truely interested in learning more, but that's not just an issue on here......

[Guest BrotherFF]

I don't know what firehouse you guys are from, but in mine, besides the firematic stuff, food is a big part of the day as well!

I enjoy all aspects of this forum! Keep up the good work EMTBravo!

[Captain 402 3]

Benz is right on target . Most of the ? about smooth bore vs adj nozzles are answered when u enter into a legit structure fire , im not talking about a trash fire but a P/D with multiple rooms going . Most would agree that there is no comparison . I would choose a smooth bore . Next time u are training try it out and see/feel the difference.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Once I got the chance to use a smooth bore nozzle during a live fire burn I was hooked. It was less energy spent fighting the nozzle reaction, and got better penetration, and knock down. Getting them in my old dept took some time, but it happened. A lot of our old timers were hooked on the combination/fog nozzles. We got all the arguement about protecting yourself with a fog stream/ ventilation potential. My other draw to the smooth bore nozzle was it for some reason your stretch of hose was too short, it was possible to shut of at the nozzle, not the pump panel, remove the nozzle tip and add on an apartment pack, and keep going.

[ex-commish 490]

Benz is right on target . Most of the ? about smooth bore vs adj nozzles are answered when u enter into a legit structure fire , im not talking about a trash fire but a P/D with multiple rooms going . Most would agree that there is no comparison . I would choose a smooth bore . Next time u are training try it out and see/feel the difference.

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You have to eliminate the hazard by getting to the seat of the fire and to do that you need penetration which you will get with a smoot bore.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

NY10570...explain what...your post pretty much said it all.

I prefer smooth bore for all the things mentioned above. Penetration, lower pump discharge pressures and lower nozzle reactions are a plus. With personnel shortages being a critical issue on both career and volunteer departments I'm surprised I haven't seen the shift back to smooth bore nozzles with the lower nozzle reaction.

The only thing I can say, I was at a training conference about 10 years ago, and a group of instructors who were very pro smooth bore, showed that the reach of the stream didn't vary much or at all between a smooth bore and a "combo/fog" nozzle. One nozzle that I cannot stand are TFT's. They require calibration that I've never seen anyone perform, and I had heard through the instructor realm at a national fire service conference of problems they had with a southern departments batch of nozzles, that they quietly replaced all of them because they couldn't hit their target flow rates even well above the 100 psi nozzle pressure requirement.

In addition I still see many aerials with fog nozzles on their elevated master streams. Why? Again, lesser nozzle pressure...80 for smoothbore vs. 100 still for the fog, You get a better penetrating stream that is not as severely effected by wind and evaporation by the fire.

One final note, now there are these combo of all combination nozzles of both smoothbore and you can get like 95 gpm's with a fog selector that is screw on and off to use and the bail is the smooth bore part. This leads to confusion for those not familiar with it, and the company that makes it, recommends the normal 50 psi nozzle pressure for the smooth bore which is the main firefighting component, however the weight of the fog portion causes the hose to easly start to fold over creating a kink right by the coupling. It sucks...period.

[AFS1970 504]

I may be somewhat biased here, as my department uses exclusively Smooth Bore for structural fire fighting, and has since long before I joined. I have never had any experience outside of a controlled training environment with Fog Nozzles in a structural environment. I have been at several drills where we have done side by side comparisons, and I much prefer Smooth Bore Nozzles.

As for other topics, a site like this is all about brotherhood, and part of that is sharing meals, discussing differences and similarities between departments (which includes apparatus color). Someone’s like of die cast collectibles or fire photography does not make them any less of a Firefighter or any less dedicated to training hard and coming home alive. But that home would be very boring if I didn't have outside interests to come home to, and the firehouse would be very boring if I didn't share many of those outside interests with my brother firefighters.

[ny10570 745]

OK, so far we have a few pro food and acouple anti food. But I only have pro smooth bore. Most every truck I see out there and on alot of these forums people use automatics, tft's, and fog nozzles. Why?

[FirNaTine 370]

There's both pros and cons with regards to both nozzles. I think like with any other tool it depends on the operator's knowledge on how to use it correctly. A nozzle is no different than any other ff. tool. I know one thing for a fact and that is there have been numerous occassions in FDNY where they had to switch over to fog nozzles in Standpipe Jobs because of the amount of fire blowing down the hallway at them. Just like there's no one size hoseline to be used at all jobs, I believe the same holds true for nozzle selection. And guys let's face it, you don't have to be a friggin rocket scientist to switch an adjustable nozzle from fog to straight and back again. Even if you do use a fog pattern, it should be a narrow fog(30degree), and no more, and to go back to a straight stream only requires about a 1/4 to 1/2 turn clockwise(that means to the right ). $hit, if guys can't figure this out once inside with lights out, the fire service is no place for them. I just hope guys aren't jumping on the FDNY band wagon with regards to smooth bores because that's what the Varsity uses, like some have done with the 10-75 code! Never mind I won't even go there. Personally, I like having the option of switching to a narrow fog or even a wider fog pattern if need be. You don't have that option with a straight tip, and maybe that's why so many FDNY guys get burned especially on their lower extremities. You can cool alot more of the floor area with a tight, narrow fog pattern, than you can with a 15/16"or 1 1/8" diameter solid stream. Think about it. Don't get me wrong, I think straight tips have their place, especially in standpipe jobs on an upper floor where pressures are generally low, but you should at least remain flexible in your attack and have the necessary equipment in your arsenal, to switch over to a fog pattern if need be. Don't wait until a strong wind is creating blast like furnace conditions in the hallway on the 20th fl. to call for a fog nozzle or tip to attach to the smooth bore. It's too late my BROTHERS. Anyway stay SAFE out there BOYZ!

[antiquefirelt 994]

I know one thing for a fact and that is there have been numerous occassions in FDNY where they had to switch over to fog nozzles in Standpipe Jobs because of the amount of fire blowing down the hallway at them.

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WHAT????? More fire requires more water, not more psi! Fighting with fog in this situation would be like climbing down the breach of a loaded gun. Please provide something to back up this claim. I have yet to hear anyone from the FDNY say they would ever use a fog nozzle off a standpipe. Using fog on a standpipe requires a low pressure nozzle, unless you specifically buy them, fog as are not low pressure!

Don't wait until a strong wind is creating blast like furnace conditions in the hallway on the 20th fl. to call for a fog nozzle or tip to attach to the smooth bore. It's too late my BROTHERS.

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Whats the pressure on the standpipe at the 20th floor anyway? Hows the TFT gonna work at 40 psi? Trust me, it'll look good, but looks aren't everything.

Personally, I like having the option of switching to a narrow fog or even a wider fog pattern if need be.

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What would the need be? Ever watched the fog nozzle on a LPG fire attack? The vortex created sucks the heat and flame right up to the nozzle teeth! Or maybe you dip the fog down and the heat and flame comes up over the top and is sucked in by the intense air movement? This can happen in a building too! While fog does have its place (LPG, gas, hairspray) years of misapplication of Lloyd Layman's teachings have done our job a great disservice. It was nover intended for direct attack!

I just hope guys aren't jumping on the FDNY band wagon with regards to smooth bores because that's what the Varsity uses, like some have done with the 10-75 code! Never mind I won't even go there.

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Jumping on the smooth bore band wagon should have nothing to do with anything but "because it works!". So FDNY is the varsity team? I guess I'd agree, you don't make varsity sitting on the bench. Likewise, FDNY uses what works for them, which should work for many others since fire burns the same way in NYC as in Boston or Podunk! Some people need to get rid of their petty jealously of the FDNY guys and realize they do see more fire than most of us and have a much larger R&D effort that can try out new things in actual fire conditions, not the artifical burn room in your concrete trainig tower. Why must we learn all these lessons for ourselves? Can't we learn from each other? Do we have to have LODD's to realize the same tactical issues others have?

Sorry brother but I had to call BS on this one.

Edited November 11, 2006 by antiquefirelt

[x134 46]

I think that some Departments need to remember that not all areas have hydrants and a secure water source when they deploy their hose lines. Some just operate off their tank water how ever much it may be. They are depending on the second engine to secure the water source, shuttles tankers etc... That takes some time. The wrong deployment of a smooth bore and getting too committed in the building and spraying at smoke can use up your water pretty quickly. Then what do you do ? Different nozzles work better for different departments for different reasons. I also agree you need to be versatile. Its not wrong just different. Old school officers say that they would rather hit a fire with everything they have all at once ( 2 inch hand line smooth bore nozzle) than to sit inside with an automatic nozzle under gunned. Just some more things to think about.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

The wrong deployment of a smooth bore and getting too committed in the building and spraying at smoke can use up your water pretty quickly. Then what do you do ?

While you can generate higher gpm flows with smoothbores with lower nozzle reaction then fog nozzles. 150 gpm is 150 gpm whether it comes out of a smoothbore or a fog nozzle, if that is your target flow. If you have poor stream management, it doesn't matter what the water comes out of, you will have the same problem. This isn't a nozzle problem, its a technique and training issue.

You can cool alot more of the floor area with a tight, narrow fog pattern, than you can with a 15/16"or 1 1/8" diameter solid stream. Think about it.

OK. I've thought about it and....what? One sweep of the floor and its cool, the water is going to cool plenty of area out of a smoothbore. How much of any area do you really need cooled?

As far as the FDNY comments. I could give a $hit less what any department uses, I base by opinions and statements based on experience, facts and published information. Fire is fire and smoothbores work for numerous reasons. If receiving burns to lower extremities is a plague in FDNY, then they need to investigate as to why this is occurring to better protect our brothers/sisters. Perhaps it has nothing do to with the nozzle, perhaps its a technique or even an equipment issue. If this was such a problem don't you think fog nozzle manufacturers would jump on the bandwagon and use this as a selling tool? Would we hear it as a problem from other departments utilizing smoothbores?

Other then the occassional need for hydraulic ventilation, what other flexibility would I need? I can even perform that with a smoothbore with the bail cracked.

How about the adjustable gallonage fog nozzles? How many times, or how many of you keep it set at 95 gpm? While your pump operators and many of you are taught that 150 gpm should be your target flow in accordance to NFPA standards for interior structural firefighting? Or even worse how many times have you found one of those nozzles on "flush?"

[sr71 1]

since joining my dept almost a year ago i have used both smooth and adjustable/tft nozzles. i perfer the smooth bore in interior attack and fires of that nature. but it flows a hell alott of water. the task force is great for car fires and little room and contents fires. there also good if your running on tank water and your trying to conserve water.

theses nozzles are apart of the fire service and there here to stay

(this is coming from a probie whos been in the historic fire service since feb)

(and yes i have a myspace for my other crap)

[hudson144 150]

DID YOU EVER SEE HOW A HOT DOG FLYS OUT OF A SMOOTH BORE NOZZLE AND PUTS OUT A FIRE? AMAZING HOW MUCH KNOCKDOWN POWER A SABRETT REALLY HAS! LOL! OK, I HAD TO TRY TO MAKE A FUNNY HERE.

[FirNaTine 370]

Guys no need to get your bowels in an uproar. Whatever works for you use it . I'm just telling you what I've been told by FDNY members(retired LT. James Curran to be exact) at their seminars at the Rock and by reading and talking to guys that operated at some pretty good highrise jobs. One job for example, was back I believe in the late 80's early 90's I believe in Harlem, where it took FDNY members operating 3- 2/12 handlines w/fog nozzles to get down the hallway into the fire apt.. This I read with my own 2 $uckin eyes in an issue of Fire House Magazine, but unfortunately have absolutely no clue what issue it was. As far as pressure on the 20th fl Antiqueff, that's why FDNY has high pressure eng.cos to supply enough water to the upper floors of these high rises, whether your using a straight tip or fog nozzle. I know one thing for sure, in my 23yrs. in the Vern I haven't had to many problems using a fog nozzle no matter what type it was. Generally if there was a problem, it usually was attributed to the nucklehead MPO having no clue what he was doing or like I mentioned in another post the clueless wonder stretching too much hose too close to the fire and giving the order to charge it. Other than that, I have to say adjustable nozzles have proven themselves time and time again. On a side note we placed a smooth bore on one of our Eng. Co's. 1 3/4" attack lines which the guys got to use at a good job 2 weeks ago and they honestly weren't too happy with it. They said it had great reach and penetration but had to work the room alot more with it to cover every nook and cranny because of the tremendous amount of heat. The fire was vented too and before anyone blames the members themselves, including the MPO, we were flowing plenty of water, approximately 180gpm. Anyway go with what you feel is best for your Dept. and as far as me sitting on the bench Antiqueff., I can guarantee you I've seen more work in my years in MT.Vernon than alot of those Glory Boys from FDNY, especially those from Riverdale, Staten Island, Queens and Midtown. $hit Midtown has mostly Automatic Alrms and Relocations. Give me a friggin break please! Remember they're taught how to ride one or two positions and that's it for 20yrs. unless they get promoted. Ex. I was out the other night with a LT. from Harlem who told me in his 18yrs on the job he never even drove a rig, because he never went to Chauffer School at the ROCK! Let's not forget the one bottle and out rule either. Anyway brothers, no matter what your fancy is remember to stay safe.

[lad12derff 283]

I just hope guys aren't jumping on the FDNY band wagon with regards to smooth bores because that's what the Varsity uses, like some have done with the 10-75 code! Never mind I won't even go there.

You guys are unbelievable with the varsity crap. Try coming to work for a job that has 3 guys on an engine ( Boss, Nozzleman, Driver) and 3 guys on a truck ( No boss most of the time, driver , front seat, jumpseat). And we are better off than some other jobs. Guys, until you show me facts that the fires are hotter in NYC than in other parts of the world stop blowing smoke up FDNY's BUTTS. They fight fires just like everyone else. And just to let you boys in on some facts they are living off the old days like everyone else in the fire service the work is not there like it use to be. As far as fog nozzles in high rise jobs, TPWS please tell me what companies were stupid enough to switch to a fog nozzle downtown because there was to much fire blowing on top of them. And if they did switch I will bet my last dollar they didn't make it to far down the hallway without severly burning themselves. Now stop talking Crap here guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Captain 402 3]

Fog Nobs in high rise ??? Must be a typo

[TimesUp 148]

Pushing heat and hot gases out a well timed vented window and away from the nozzle team. Breaking thermal layers, thus negating the chance of flashover. Placing the nozzle between the fire and any means of egress that must be protected. All of these help extinguish the fire quickly and effectively. These are all tasks which are preformed well with a TFT.

If your fires are'nt going out then maybe you have to look at your tactics. Was it a one line fire? Could we have used a second line? Was the fire vented well giving the nozzle team a good chance on making a push?

GPM? Fireflow? The Iowa formula? Even if your gonna do the math, should'nt you just know "we need a second line" or a third! Way to often only one line is stretched. Maybe a delayed second line might show up. Even if there is fire on an entire floor of a two and a half story. If the nozzle team makes a good push and the fire is vented well (self vented) Then I've seen these fires go out. Nobody will say"we should of had a smoothbore nozzle" But if the fire goes through the roof everybody blames the TFT for lack of GPM. But how about asking where was the second or third line?

Adding a new peice of equipment to your arsenal is'nt always the answer. Tactics and abilitys must be up to par. No sense in reinventing the wheel, just fix the flat and drive on.

[RWC130 594]

Hudson144,

I will have to try that! Does the Chili help? LOL!

OK, down to business here....

I think this is one of the most positive threads from a training and experience standpoint I have seen in a while. We need more like this!

Seasoned Firefighters, Officers, and Instructors giving input and experiences.

Something ALL of us on here can learn from.

Smooth Bore Vs. Automatic / Fog / Etc.

TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING!!!

I have used the "Combo Nozzle" and I have had incidents where

you have a need for the Straight Stream and a need for a Fog. I think it's

very important to know your equipment and various situations where you

might need either one. Options are nice!

I know of some departments in Westchester where if you mention a Smooth Bore Nozzle they will look at you like huh, what's that? Reason... ALL they were ever trained on was Combo Nozzles again back to TRAINING not good.

I would have to say I think Capt Benz said it best worry about "PUTTING THE FIRE OUT FIRST"

Why is it better? ALSFirefighter made some great points.

Overall I would have to agree with using a Smooth Bore!

On the topic of Nozzles... How about what line to pull?

1" 3/4 or 2" 1/2?????

How many FF's here have seen a wrong line pulled?

Just my two cents.

BE SAFE BROTHERS!

Everyone Goes Home...