Beyond The Jaws......

[x635 4,066]

This is a spin off of the thread "Who Carries The Jaws".

On that thread, everyone is posting about who has the jaws. I have a question.

Who is RESPONDING with the jaws?

Do they have enough properly trained manpower, in protective gear? Do they have enough cribbing to properly secure the vehicle? Do they have EMS in an appropriate timeframe to get the patient to the hospital? Are they properly blocking and lighting the scene to protect themselves? Are they caring for the needs of the patient? Are they calm, organized, and professional?

You can have 1 set of jaws or 1 set on every apparatus, it's still not going to make a difference if you don't have the proper system in place. In my opinion, slapping a tool on an engine and taking AVET isn't the definitive solution for pin jobs.

Yes, we can all be proud of the equipment we carry. However, we need to keep in mind that it's the skill along with proper staffing, equipment, and continued training that saves lives, not the tool. It seems to me that some think that just because the tool is there, that it's good and they anf the community they protect are safe.

It also seems pin jobs are the cause of much tension between agencies and personel. And it seems everyone nowadays needs a tool on their apparatus.

Rescue is a specialty, and extrication is part of that. Everyone wants to do it, yet there's not much work to go around, and the more tools there are, the worse it makes the situation. Not only does it cause fights, but those who should be getting the experience aren't, because their are so many hands in the pot.

We can take all the thousands that are being spent on extrication tools and systems that are sometimes overkill in some communities, and invest that money in other lifesaving equipment. Yet, more and more we see the dollars going to the "tool" and even apparatus being designed around it and not firefighting.

A normal pin job should be a routine task for the designated agencies rescue company, and them only. Other units should provide supportive functions, such as scene lighting, traffic control, fluid managament, etc.

Just some scattered thoughts...

Edited November 8, 2006 by x635

[res6cue 67]

There's no competition here. We and we alone carry the Jaws and perform rescues. Our dept is also an integral part of the County's Technical Rescue Team, which means we have guys with advanced level specialty rescue training. That knowledge gets passed along to everyone else during training and drills, as well as on the job when need be. Finally, our Chief works at R3, so believe you me he is not going to sit back and allow us to become complacent when it comes to rescue training and keeping our skills proficient.

One other thing: We don't buy a ton of fancy tools just for the sake of having more equipment than the next guy. We buy what we need and what we use. Function over form. Our new Rescue will fall far short of being the biggest rescue truck in the area, but then again it won't be filled with heaps of useless equipment and mobile command centers either.

[ny10570 745]

Do they have enough properly trained manpower, in protective gear? Do they have enough cribbing to properly secure the vehicle?  Do they have EMS in an appropriate timeframe to get the patient to the hospital? Are they properly blocking and lighting the scene to protect themselves? Are they caring for the needs of the patient? Are they calm, organized, and professional?

←

Outside of a very few communities the answer is no. I usually don't agree with you, but I completely agree with you. This is an area of our job that requires alot of skill and practice, not more toys. In fact the dpets I've seen extricate best don't have all of the toys. They are simple and well practiced operations. Many dept's I see are out there buying all this stuff for the big job that they haven't had yet but could happen. You absolutely must be prepared for the worst case senario, the extreme 1%; but first lets get good at the 99%. What good are all the airbags, support systems, and heavy lift tools in the world if you can't pop the door, remove the roof, and roll the dash fast enough to get the patient to the ER within that golden hour?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I agree as well. The biggest thing I often see is those whom rush and are running around and not looking at the big picture. Cribbing properly or at all goes out the window. As well as good technique in utilzing the tool and the car construction to maximize efficiency for what you want to achieve. Everyone just wants to cut and pry and I often wonder where the "management" of these incidents is when this goes on and the IC and other officers stand there and watch this go on.

[Remember585 815]

This is a spin off of the thread "Who Carries The Jaws".

On that thread, everyone is posting about who has the jaws.  I have a question.

Who is RESPONDING with the jaws?

Do they have enough properly trained manpower, in protective gear? Do they have enough cribbing to properly secure the vehicle?  Do they have EMS in an appropriate timeframe to get the patient to the hospital? Are they properly blocking and lighting the scene to protect themselves? Are they caring for the needs of the patient? Are they calm, organized, and professional?

You can have 1 set of jaws or 1 set on every apparatus, it's still not going to make a difference if you don't have the proper system in place. In my opinion, slapping a tool on an engine and taking AVET isn't the definitive solution for pin jobs.

Yes, we can all be proud of the equipment we carry. However, we need to keep in mind that it's the skill along with proper staffing, equipment, and continued training that saves lives, not the tool.  It seems to me that some think that just because the tool is there, that it's good and they anf the community they protect are safe.

It also seems pin jobs are the cause of much tension between agencies and personel. And it seems everyone nowadays needs a tool on their apparatus.

Rescue is a specialty, and extrication is part of that.  Everyone wants to do it, yet there's not much work to go around, and the more tools there are, the worse it makes the situation.  Not only does it cause fights, but those who should be getting the experience aren't, because their are so many hands in the pot. 

We can take all the thousands that are being spent on extrication tools and systems that are sometimes overkill in some communities, and invest that money in other lifesaving equipment. Yet, more and more we see the dollars going to the "tool" and even apparatus being designed around it and not firefighting.

A normal pin job should be a routine task for the designated agencies rescue company, and them only. Other units should provide supportive functions, such as scene lighting, traffic control, fluid managament, etc.

Just some scattered thoughts...

←

What kills me is if you look at a Department running a Rescue, that rig has all the tools, cribbing, chains and other goodies needed to carry out this job. And that's good.

BUT...

How many departments (GUILTY) carry a "jaws" on another rig, but NOTHING ELSE TO GO WITH IT?! Who are we kidding? I also get a kick out of hearing departments take their Rescue out for service and put the JAWS ONLY on another rig. Or even better, leave it on the floor of the firehouse or leave it on the rig. WHAT GIVES?!

If you take your Ladder out of town, in most cases you have an automatic response or a will-call in place to cover it. But so many of us don't do squat about covering our jaws calls. Why is that? If you go to any parade in Westchester, you see a buttload of rescues - so what's that leave in town?

As for training - everyone considers themselves "qualified" when they take AVET. It can't end there. Periodic training is the only way to become proficient in this skill. Every Chief should see to it that any member of theirs responding to a pin job, whether on the Rescue, Engine, Truck - whatever - is trained and proficient in this skill. As one of my instructors once told me, vehicle extrication is an art. Knowing vehicle dynamics, tool capabilities and proper stabilization techniques isn't something that can be taken for granted.

*And - for the record - the two Holmatro manual tools carried on Engines 118 & 119 are for backup use and don't get utilized primarily. They actually are on these units for the FAST.*

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Outside of a very few communities the answer is no.  I usually don't agree with you, but I completely agree with you.  This is an area of our job that requires alot of skill and practice, not more toys.  In fact the dpets I've seen extricate best don't have all of the toys.  They are simple and well practiced operations.  Many dept's I see are out there buying all this stuff for the big job that they haven't had yet but could happen.  You absolutely must be prepared for the worst case senario, the extreme 1%; but first lets get good at the 99%.  What good are all the airbags, support systems, and heavy lift tools in the world if you can't pop the door, remove the roof, and roll the dash fast enough to get the patient to the ER within that golden hour?

←

Wow, this is great. Tthoughtful, rational discussion about tactics in the industry and not how can I get MORE lights jammed into the grill of my 93 Toyota!

You and Res6cue are so right! This isn't about the toys its about the talent!

The one other point I'd like to make is the necessity of discussing the operation with the EMS provider responsible for the patient. And I don't mean that you're a CFR and AVET qualified hero. I mean the EMT or paramedic that's going to be in the ambulance all the way to the hospital. Discuss the urgency, discuss the best means of removing the victim from the car, discuss what injuries are likely and how best to treat during the extrication. That 30 second or 1 minute exchange can mean a lot if you cut 20-30 minutes off the extrication time!

I wish I had a nickel for every time I said, let's just take the door off and remove the victim only to be told "no, we're going to take the whole roof and both doors off". The victim could have been out with simply the door off, but noooooooo....

Tell you what, you want to cut up the car - do it after I leave with the patient!

Good topic, guys! Thanks.