LED Lights

[gpdexplorer 46]

OK, so i have to admit that I LOVE LED lights. They are awesomely bright and energy efficient, and have better flash patterns then strobes. But recently, I have noticed that most new apparatus and chief's cars are having more and more LED's all over. At some point, doesnt someone say enough is enough. If you cant be seen with 1 pair of LED's in the grill, a dual talon on the dash, and a lightbar, is it really necessary to but another pair of LED's in the grill, LED's in the foglights and another dashlight?

This is just an observation and isnt aimed at anyone specifically. And dont get me wrong, I love LED lights and they are a great asset, but at some point, I think we have to draw a line.

[sr71 1]

ok heres my two cents. in todays world where people talk on there cell phones and cant hear sirens like they used to. so people are putting more lights on the trucks thinking well if i cant be herd than im gonne be seen. thats my rational thought.

and for my pv im putting as many lights as possible because we cant have sirens. so i might as well blind them into pulling over

haha lol

but thats why i think there on there.

oo and people spec for looks now and not for function.

[x134 46]

Some police agencies shut they're rear strobes off on their vehicles at scenes because they blind traffic and the officer can't be seen in the street. So as far as too many lights I agree. Depending on the pattern, and the light ,it can cause some people to go into fits.(see seizures) for you non - technical people.

[JBE 328]

I think a nice mix is the best way to go. LED's for some lights, strobes and flashers for others, and rotators for others.

[RWC130 594]

Anyone who has taken EVOC or watched some Emergency Vehicle Training Films

remember the part about the CARNIVAL EFFECT? NOT good!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

GPD explorer...excellent topic lad. And YES...you there comes a time when enough should be enough. On accident scenes the best way to protect your personnel is to block the scene correctly and adequately and at night is to light up the scene as much as possible. Particulary with light towers and tri pod lights that sit elevated, making it easier for your crews to see and work and for you crews to be seen easier making iti safer all around. On another thread I posted an experience that I had on a day with drizzle that as I approached a flycar and a chief's car they both had LED light sticks in the rear and when I got within about 100 feet of both cars I was blinded and I wouldn't have been able to see if someone was standing on my hood. It shouldn't be about what looks good, it should be visibility, particulary at 90 degree angles which new products over the past 10 -15 years has made marked improvements. Amber in 3 directions is huge for safety. I have the ability to shut off my forward facing strobes in my lightbar and can dim them with a hi/lo switch which I often do for safety. In fact I often only leave on my rear facing amber strobes if other vehicles have their lights on to reduce the amount but give more amber.

[res6cue 67]

I have to say, in most ways I'm a fan of the lighting requirements in NFPA 1901, but I do think it could be a little better.

What I like:

- No clear/white light to the rear of the vehicle EVER

- All clear/white light to the front (except headlights) has to be disabled when the maxi brake is set (blocking mode)

- The way the apparatus is broken up into zones in order to ensure good coverage and visibility

What I don't like:

- The minimum candlepower requirement for the rear upper and lower zones, I think it's too high/bright

I'm of the school of thought that too much and too bright lighting to the rear of the vehicle is actually detrimental, not helpful. I believe it attracts driver's attention, but not necessarily in a good way. It's more of an "ooo look at the pretty lights!" thing, and we all know that where your eyes go, your hands go, which means your car goes also. As far as at night, aside from the obvious potential to temporarily blind a driver, I'd almost rather have all rear facing lights off so when my guys are walking around, the car's headlights and driver's eyes will more effectively hit and pick up on the turnout gear reflective striping. I would actually love if NFPA rewrote the standard to call for all rear lighting to be shut down during blocking mode except for an amber ArrowStik type device, and with an automatic dimmer for night operation. That'll never happen though.

As far as specifically related to LEDs, I have mixed feelings about them. I prefer halogen lightbars over strobe or LED lightbars without question. As far as lightheads, I think strobes are generally more effective than halogens, but LEDs are pretty impressive as well. They're certainly a hell of a lot more durable and draw next to no amperage. I'm also a fan of using Code3 OsciLasers in the front bezel. They project very effectively in a wide pattern. I'm just not sold on the projection power of LEDs as compared to halogen rotators.

Our new Rescue should be interesting, as it's 100% LED except for (thank God) the MX7000 lightbars. Even has one of them fancy Whelen SmartArrow messenger bars in the rear with all the preprogrammed traffic messages.

[gpdexplorer 46]

Thanks for all of the input guys!

res6cue, I must say that I like the oscilaser type lights as well. On the back of both TVAC's rigs, there is one center mounted above the loading doors, 81-B1's in amber and 81-B2 is red. I feel that between the 4 halogen flashers and the oscilaser, there is a lot of light. However, I hoped that when we got our new rig two years ago, we would have gotten the halogen rotators that were on the demo we saw because the strobes that are on our rigs can barely be see, especially during the day. And seeing as how we respond to the thruway and TZ Bridge, it seems that that would make sense to me.

[res6cue 67]

The only thing that sucks about the OsciLasers is they tend to accumulate moisture inside of them once you break the seal to change the bulb or whatnot. Once that happens, you'll probably run into problems with the contact pins corroding or the ground going bad, causing the bulb not to light. You really have to watch when opening them up that you seal them back up nice and tight. When they work though, they're great.

[IzzyEng4 427]

The only thing that sucks about the OsciLasers is they tend to accumulate moisture inside of them once you break the seal to change the bulb or whatnot. Once that happens, you'll probably run into problems with the contact pins corroding or the ground going bad, causing the bulb not to light. You really have to watch when opening them up that you seal them back up nice and tight. When they work though, they're great.

←

Almost any light that the seal has broken gets this way. You need to buy a new seal every time. it stinks but it worth the hassle.

[Guest resqstuff]

Let's not miss the true problem - it's not the lighting - it's the fact that you can have 2 Engines and chiefs vehicle, some police cars and whatever else you want to throw in there - and people will try to see what is going on inside of the scene without even thinking about stepping on the brakes. So the problem isn't so much the lights - but the stupidity of people who just don't care about the safety of people that may be working on or near the roadway, cuz let's face it - if people slowed to a reasonable speed they would still be able to stop prior to running over an emergency responder or hitting an emergency vehicle.

Edited November 7, 2006 by resqstuff

[AFS1970 504]

I think LED's have become their own worst enemy. For years every one had flashers and t\some rotators. Then Strobes came out and everybody went strobe crazy, but these lights still drew allot of power. Still studdies were saying to have more lights, because cars were becomming soundproof, and sirens were less effective. Then LED's came out and we all thought, hey more lights....less power this is great. Now we have had to coiin terms like Carnival Effect because we collectivly went LED crazy. Now we are begining to change colors because the trend is to blame the responders for getting hit. resqstuff hit the nail onthe head, if motorists would slow down, they would be able to stop better.

LED's have added a host of new options, on both apparatus and personal vehicles. The trouble is every time a new light comes out, we expand the deffinition of enough, because technology allows us to. At some point enough will be enough but there will always be those of us who will stretch the limits.

[mfkap 0]

The problem with blaming the motorists is that they are something out of our control. If I have the option of adapting my lighting scheme to reduce the chance of me becoming roadkill, or turning my car into one big light bulb and then blaming the motorist after I am hit, I know what I am going to go for. Saying you have to change how people drive is like saying your approach works except for in the rain/snow, so it is the rain/snow's fault if your plan doesn't work. You have to have a strategy that is useful in real world conditions, and this includes correct scene placement, blocking, safe methods by your crew (like staying out of the traffic lane), and lighting that lets you been seen without blinding everyone behind the wheel of a car within a mile. Really, if you think that the person is going to crash into you because you didn't have LED's 19 thru 35, you need to consider something else as your problem.

[Scottyk107 9]

I think that there deff can be too much lighting. People think that if they look like a christmas tree that people will move and not get hit, but sometimes is the opposite. a person passing on the other side of the road may take a double look at the rig,car, or bus, because it was lit up like crazy. I think you have to use your judgement on what your responding area is. Also the new reflective backs on rigs I think provide a great new addition to reduce the need for lighting by using the other motorists head lights to show were you are rather then blinding them. Just a thought.

[Guest paramedico987]

Good call on the amber ALS! DEFINATELY THE BEST TO DISPLAY ON SCENE!

I would personally like to see the VTL amended to allow the use of blue and or green beacons concomitantly with the standard red and white.

As it stands there are a few agencies who already do this and I've noticed that their vehicles stand out much better becuase of the blue lights.

HOWEVER, they do put themselves at risk, legally, by doing this. If they were ever in a serious accident some lawer would likely argue that they are at fault for displaying the wrong signals, and would likely think that he or she is actually doing the public a great justice by pointing it out.

I firmly believe that RED is a piss poor choice for an emergency beacon color. Although it does maintain its brillaince over longer distances due to its wavelength, it is psychologically ignored because it is found so commonly on our roadways in traffic lights and tail lamps. Whereas BLUE is out of the ordinary and therefore very eyecatching.

I recently moved to CT where all PD vehicles are RED/BLUE and I see them coming from much farther away than I do emergency vehicles in NYS. From long distances [i.e. straight highway] I first notice the RED signals. In more congested areas, however, my eye is first taken with the brilliant BLUE. For this reason I firmly blieve that a combination of RED/.BLUE would help make us ALL safer on the road.

In terms of SCENE SAFETY I think we can all agree that we just need to be able to turn off most of our light package and then block any personell with a tanker, off of which cars will bounce in a moderatley humerous manner!

[gpdexplorer 46]

I may be mistaken, but I think the VTL was amended to allow PD's to use blue lights rear facing only (although there are most certainly are department's that use blue forward facing)

[xfirefighter484x 234]

I may be mistaken, but  I think the VTL was amended to allow PD's to use blue lights rear facing only (although there are most certainly are department's that use blue forward facing)

←

No, you are right. If memory serves me correctly, it was within the past 2 or 3 months the V&T changed. As of then, most NYSP I have seen have at least one, or 2 Blue LED flasher in the rear of their lightbars, and ALL new NYSP cruisers have them.

I traveled up 17 this past weekend to visit my brother in Binghamton, and was cruising behind a NYSP Tahoe when he lit up and pulled the vehicle over in front of him. The blue LEDs were INSANE as compared to the old Red/Amber flashers.

A good addition to the VTL...now if we could only get them to allow ALL emergency vehicles for rear blue facing lights...

[res6cue 67]

I may be mistaken, but  I think the VTL was amended to allow PD's to use blue lights rear facing only (although there are most certainly are department's that use blue forward facing)

←

Correct, as of June 7, 2006.

http://www.nysgtsc.state.ny.us/bluelite.htm

I have one big problem with the new law. Instead of limiting it to "police vehicles", they should've expanded it to say "authorized emergency vehicles". There are very few other distinctions in NYS V&T law between a police vehicle and other emergency vehicles, and there shouldn't be here either. It's kind of absurd to think that the police can use blue lights now, but fire apparatus cannot, especially considering blue lights in NY are indelibly linked to the fire service.

[mricorp 12]

Correct, as of June 7, 2006.

http://www.nysgtsc.state.ny.us/bluelite.htm

I have one big problem with the new law. Instead of limiting it to "police vehicles", they should've expanded it to say "authorized emergency vehicles". There are very few other distinctions in NYS V&T law between a police vehicle and other emergency vehicles, and there shouldn't be here either. It's kind of absurd to think that the police can use blue lights now, but fire apparatus cannot, especially considering blue lights in NY are indelibly linked to the fire service.

←

I believe the reason for that has a lot to do with that fact that the police were the ones fighting for the change to blue while the FD was lobbying against it.

[Guest bibbles10504]

I would have to agree with res6cue I love LED's but i'm not convinced about their projection power. About the law above, other than it not being stated in the new law, what is wrong with displaying blue lights in the front?

I also think blue stands out the most, I live in NY but go to school in IN, and the police here have blue and red, the blue is definetley very visible

[JM15 386]

I go to school in NH where police use blue lights. The cops here use all blue LED lightbars. They are pretty bright but most of all very noticeable and eye catching.

[ems731 0]

I agree, enough is enough, more lights does not equal better. The LEDs are brighter and when you have alot of them it becomes blinding espicially at night. Also another thing I dont like is white or clear lights in the back of the vechile (like in the back-up lights) because at night it is blinding.

Just a side note, your car/truck might look sweet and cool with all your lights in it but how sweet is it gonna look when its wrecked cause someone was blinded and hit it.

[Guest bibbles10504]

that is a very good point... I know we cant change the way people drive, but it doesnt make sense to me. If you ae blinded by something, you should slow down and move away from the blinding lights. Not just be like "ohh lights, lets go towards them even though we cant see what is there."

Thats just my thought

[res6cue 67]

I believe the reason for that has a lot to do with that fact that the police were the ones fighting for the change to blue while the FD was lobbying against it.

←

You're absolutely correct. The various associations, led by FASNY, has lobbied the State for DECADES not to allow anyone except vollies use blue lights. Well, after introducing legislation just about every single year for the past who knows how many, the SP finally won the battle. You certainly can't blame them for making sure the bill specifically said "police vehicles" only, why should they play nice and include us? After all, we were the roadblock for so long, proving yet again that we are indeed our own worst enemy. We should've co-sponsored a bill years ago allowing ALL emergency vehicles to use blue, front and rear. Just as long as it didn't take away the right for vollies to still use them. It would've been a win-win for all involved.

[Remember585 815]

A good topic and a lot of good opinions.

We can't blame the lights themselves - we are the morons that over-do it and load vehicles to the gills with a million lights.

LEDs are by far the way to go for most because they are bright, and more importantly create a low power draw. You guys remember all those rotating lights and 100 watt halogen flashers that used to adorn so many rigs - they're almost a thing of the past. I remember many times when we would be responding to a call at night and the warning lights were dimming the headlights so bad we couldn't see!!

Speaking of energy loads - I also notice to this day (well, 3 nights ago) that when you have a ton of halogen and rotating lights going when parked on scene, other important things - like headlights and scene lights - dim to the point of uselessness.

The best thing we can do is utilize scene lighting for our night ops. What are we achieving when we are on the scene of a call on a relatively slow and/ or dead-end road and we leave everything on?! I strongly oppose leaving warning lights on at scenes AT NIGHT when proper traffic control, scene lighting and apparatus placement is there. During the day I still think our warning lights couples with apparatus placement and traffic control is our best approach.

[res6cue 67]

You guys remember all those rotating lights and 100 watt halogen flashers that used to adorn so many rigs - they're almost a thing of the past.  I remember many times when we would be responding to a call at night and the warning lights were dimming the headlights so bad we couldn't see!!

←

Our ladder had 4 mini bars, each with 2 belt driven rotators containing 4 sealed beam halogens for a total of 16 bulbs. Talk about amp draw! As soon as you wound the Q up, the lightbars would literally stop rotating. Finally I ordered 8 new lightweight 50 watt halogen rotators and swapped all the guts out. Problem solved. Got a great deal on the cost of the rotators (Galls definitely quoted/billed the wrong amount) so I wound up swapping out 4 trucks worth of the old belt driven/sealed beam bars.

[unleashedff248 3]

CAUTION: SCIENCE AHEAD...

LED light projection is higher by the nature of the LED light beam. LED lights only emit light at one wavelength (which determines color), whereas halogen and strobes emit white light (a combination of many wavelengths) and then filter out the ones they don't want to project. This creates a beam that has many so called "holes" in it, and is easily refracted/scattered by air and suspended particles in the air. Every time light passes from air to another material and vice versa it gets bent a little bit (refracted) due to differences in the speed light travels in different mediums. Narrow, single wavelength beams are less subject to scattering by refraction than wide multiple wavelength beams. It also creates a ton of heat from the light that is filtered out (since light is energy and energy cannot be destroyed but rather only converted in form). LED lights form a tight collimated beam. This is the reason LED's were/are so bad at off axis lighting, but with the new "Gen 3" lights the use of internal reflectors has made them spread light at off axis angles much more efficiently. LED's offer many advantages over halogen and strobes, but I do agree that a combination of all 3 types is the most effective, as each has it's advantages and disadvantages.

Halogen/strobe:

color

white filter colored light little light intensity projected

--------------l------------>------------------------------------------->

--------------l (absorbed as heat)

--------------l------------> H2O (refracted and scattered by water in the air)

--------------l------------>------------------------------------------->

--------------l (absorbed as heat)

LED:

colored clear colored light (most light intensity projected)

--------------l------------>------------------------------------------->

--------------l------------>------------------------------------------->

--------------l------------>------------------------------------------->

--------------l------------>------------------------------------------->

--------------l------------>------------------------------------------->

...hence the need for 100 watt/50 watt halogens as compared to 1 or 3 watt LED's that exceed the light output of said halogens. LED's are not zero loss, as there is no such thing as a zero loss "energy converter" in this universe. Every light will create some heat, but halogens and strobes create much higher heat outputs than LED's.

So I hope this answers some questions on why LED's are so much more popular than strobes and halogens. It not merely for looks and low current draw, there is some science behind it. And LED's will always project further than strobes and halogens do, but may not project as wide of a beam, hence the misunderstanding. Moving off-axis of a LED creates a much larger intensity difference than moving off axis of a strobe or halogen light. Any questions class?

Edited November 14, 2006 by unleashedff248

[IzzyEng4 427]

CAUTION: SCIENCE AHEAD...

Any questions class?   

←

WHEN WILL THEN BE NOW?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

lol

Edited November 14, 2006 by IzzyEng4

[hudson144 150]

EVER SEE A LED LIGHT PUT A FIRE OUT? GUYS- DON'T TAKE THIS THE WRONG WAY BUT THERE HAS BEEN SOME STRONG TOPICS IN THE LAST DAY OR SO PERTAINING TO REAL INCIDENTS AS WELL AS SOME SERIOUS DAILY TYPES OF INCIDENTS YOU MIGHT BE CALLED TO.THE POST ON LED LIGHTS IS UP TO 25 ALREADY. I READ THEM ALL AND THERE IS SOME GOOD INFO HERE,THE POINT THAT I AM TRYING TO MAKE IS TO TRY TO GET INVOLVED WITH SOME OF THE OTHER POSTS THAT DEAL WITH MORE IMPORTANT ISSUES. AFTER READING SOME POSTS DEALING WITH INCIDENT COMMAND,CO CALLS ETC THIS IS ANOTHER AVENUE TO LEARN FROM.USE IT AND GET INVOLVED! BE SAFE!

[res6cue 67]

EVER SEE A LED LIGHT PUT A FIRE OUT? GUYS- DON'T TAKE THIS THE WRONG WAY BUT THERE HAS BEEN SOME STRONG TOPICS IN THE LAST DAY OR SO PERTAINING TO REAL INCIDENTS AS WELL AS SOME SERIOUS DAILY TYPES OF INCIDENTS YOU MIGHT BE CALLED TO.THE POST ON LED LIGHTS IS UP TO 25 ALREADY. I READ THEM ALL AND THERE IS SOME GOOD INFO HERE,THE POINT THAT I AM TRYING TO MAKE IS TO TRY TO GET INVOLVED WITH SOME OF THE OTHER POSTS THAT DEAL WITH MORE IMPORTANT ISSUES. AFTER READING SOME POSTS DEALING WITH INCIDENT COMMAND,CO CALLS ETC THIS IS ANOTHER AVENUE TO LEARN FROM.USE IT AND GET INVOLVED! BE SAFE!

Alright, enough is enough with posts like this. I'm only going to post this once, so pay attention:

1. Stop lecturing the membership on just what threads and topics are and aren't "more important". We do not need to be told or reminded of what you happen to think the purpose of EMTBravo is. Only one man can speak to that, and he already has. Seth has made it very clear that while he hopes people will learn and share "important" information, he is also determined to allow people to feel comfortable here without feeling pressured that they have to make every one of their posts a "productive" one. If someone wants to post only in the Apparatus section about buff stuff, that is their right, period.

2. Pay attention to the fact that the members who post in these here "useless" threads are the same members posting and taking part in the "more important" threads also.

We are all very aware that fireground tactics are more important to firefighting than recipes and LEDs, we don't need to be lectured on it. This is a very diverse forum with many different "rooms" for different topics. The staff is not going to tolerate members going into certain rooms and chastising others for not posting in what they deem "more important" areas of the forum, period. Many of the same members that are doing the lecturing have little to no notable contributions themselves, which puts you in a hypocritical light. Put up, or shut up.

(This is not specifically directed at you per se, Hudson, but in general. There has been way too much of it going on of late.)