Wires Down, FD Left Scene?

[RWC130 594]

LIVE WIRES DOWN

Recently, I heard a Fire Department being dispatched for Wires Down.

The FD remained on scene for some time making numerous requests to the Dispatcher for an ETA on the power company.

I could hear the urgency and frustration in the Chief's voice when he radioed in "Live Wires Down" and was told repeatedly by Dispatch "They are enroute no ETA available"

Shortly after the Chief got on the air and stated "All FD units clearing the scene, cones have been set up"

What kind of LIABILITY is on the Fire Department, City, Town, or Village now that the Fire Department has left a Hazardous Scene unattended?

(John Doe comes walking along with his dog and gets cooked)

Any thoughts?

[res6cue 67]

Well, while I wouldn't advocate taking up from a scene that is still "active", sometimes you have to draw the line somewhere. How long is long enough tying up a truck and manpower babysitting downed wires while waiting for the power company? I don't have the exact answer, there are too many factors. First of all, we've had situations where it was pretty clear that the power company didn't exactly rush out to us because they knew we were there and there was little urgency on their part to respond in a timely manner. Also, maybe these lines were down in a remote area or the road was already closed off with trees down or something. Maybe the PD remained on scene, or told the FD to take up and they'll keep an eye on it. Hard to really say this dept did the right or wrong thing without having all available facts.

[mikerabbit 2]

would leaving one member at the scene to make sure nobody touches wire sufice in limiting liability?

[res6cue 67]

I would think so. A scene can be secured with just one person, especially if it's a small, isolated scene. Obviously the person left behind should have either a radio or cell phone so they can advise someone if the situation escalates. We've had our fire police babysit situations like these in their POVs if we needed to clear for another job.

[Guest]

Good question to ask your town attorney. I actually was in a jury once in a personal injury case. The defendant won the case because they did identify a hazard and set out signs and barricades to help the public avoid the hazard. The plaintif chose to ignore the warning signs and got injured. The defendant won because the extent of their liability was to let the public know of the hazard. If the public chooses to ignore it, then it is their liability.

That said, we try to leave some member from a public safety agency on scene as well as to flare, tape and/or barricade the scene. But, you may not always be able to do this.

Sometimes, having someone remain on scene during the height of a storm just increases the risk for that person. So, you may be forced to barricade until safer conditions prevail.

If your department is totally tapped out, then you may need to barricade and temporarily leave.

Our community is fortunate in that we have a very active CERT (Community Emergency Response Team) program in town. They are very good at relieving fire and police at such incidents. You may want to look at starting up a program in your town.

[helicopper 1,050]

On a similiar note, today's little breezes makes inspired me to ask:

Does any agency around here have policies that state when they will stop responding to calls during a storm? I know that in Florida when weather conditions reach a certain point (usually near hurricane conditions) police and fire/ems return to designated safe havens until after the storm passes and they can safely resume operations.

Just curious!

Good question to ask your town attorney.  I actually was in a jury once in a personal injury case.  The defendant won the case because they did identify a hazard and set out signs and barricades to help the public avoid the hazard.  The plaintif chose to ignore the warning signs and got injured.  The defendant won because the extent of their liability was to let the public know of the hazard.  If the public chooses to ignore it, then it is their liability.

That said, we try to leave some member from a public safety agency on scene as well as to flare, tape and/or barricade the scene.  But, you may not always be able to do this.

Sometimes, having someone remain on scene during the height of a storm just increases the risk for that person.  So, you may be forced to barricade until safer conditions prevail.

If your department is totally tapped out, then you may need to barricade and temporarily leave.

Our community is fortunate in that we have a very active CERT (Community Emergency Response Team) program in town.  They are very good at relieving fire and police at such incidents.  You may want to look at starting up a program in your town.

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[ny10570 745]

Babysitting wires down calls is something I really only see in the volley end of the service. If the wires are down and apear to be dead, tape it off mark it and go home. If they're live and pose an active threat to life or property then you have to stay. I have no problem giving up my time to serve my community, but there's a limit.

[John Meeker Jr 0]

Sound like the scene up here yesterday. What people listening to the radio would not be aware of is that those live lines found a good ground and blew the circuit. the wires were not in the roadway and the house in question was free and clear of damage. Is there liability? Yes.

We all know how well the public responds to taping off a scene, putting the cones up was just to mark a possible tree hazard left as the power was no longer a real danger. we all know that fire scenes change, our did.

[IzzyEng4 427]

You never assume that electrical lines that are not arcing are dead, first mistake make by all public safter officials. Having worked and knowing electricians, you can never assume that any electrical line (doesn't matter if it is a service or a transmission line) does not have any power to it. Any exposed power line must be monitored and people kept back from it (an electrical current once it is grounded can still travel several feet throught the ground and still shock you).

Another problem is the "its only a cable / telephone line", who says that thes lines might not be touching an electrical power line? Are firefighters, chiefs or other public saftey personnel qualified enough to make this decision, the answer is no (even if you work for the local power company and are operating as a firefighter.)

Now having said that, the liability of leaving the scene. Technically if the hazard is not mitigated and the units all cleared the scene, then the FD is liable for its actions for lack of mitigation. But wether you leave a truck and crew, the IC stays on scene or a fire-police member or police office, then you are covered so that the rest of the units can return to service. The problem is still being monitored. This way if you have atleast one public safety servant monitoring the problem, the fd can go still check other hazards, especially during a storm whemn we get the most calls for downed wires.

The best bet for anyone is to have a the saftey team from your local power company come out and have a class with them, they are more than willing to do so. My department has a few guys that work for UI and they set up a training session since we have several transmission lines going through the town and also because of the way an incident was handled and the members needed to have a refresher.

[EJS1810 7]

Lets look at this another way. Live wires down in the street. No Fire, no arcing. Who is responsible for "Securing" the hazard?

If you notify the utility company that "their" wires are down in the street, should they be responsible?

How about a "paid" agency like the Town Police. If they are sent and have to "babysit" the wires, who will handle the other calls in the town? Will they have to call someone in on "overtime"?

Or if we call the local fire department which in this area is probably a volunteer agency will their members be responsible for " babysitting" the wires. They will now have to sit there awaiting the arrival of the utility company while the Town Police end their shift and go home.

I say mark off the hazard area with caution tape. If necessary get "Road Closed" signs from Highway or DPW and close the street. If the public chooses to ignore your warnings, the local agency should not be responsible. It is the same as if you were actually there and told them that they cannot go down the street and they ignore your warning.

[Remember585 815]

From what I recall during training one time or another, as long as you mark it off and clearly point out the hazard so that the "normal, reasonable citizen can recognize the potential hazard," we may leave.

I think our best answer may lie within someone from either Con Ed or NYSEG instead of all of us speculating the solution. We can leave that to the thousands of others posts we already do that on....

[helicopper 1,050]

I don't think that caution tape and/or barricades will carry the same weight as an emergency vehicle and/or first responder(s) if someone gets hurt in your absence and the matter is reviewed by a court. If you leave, how do you know the tape or barricades remain as you intended? How do you insure that people understand the hazard? If you're there and someone ignores your warnings that an area is closed, at least you can request the PD to respond and take further action. If they get hurt in the interim at least you've done what you could to protect the idiot.

I agree with one of the earlier posts - consult your department's and/or municipality's legal counsel for guidance before allowing your emotions (tired, frustrated, bored, etc.) to influence a policy decision.

It really doesn't matter whether you're paid or volunteer, police or fire - the liability is going to be the same!

Look at it another way, if McDonalds can get sued and lose because someone gets burned by a hot cup of coffee, we can certainly get sued if we leave a hazard!

Lets look at this another way.  Live wires down in the street.  No Fire, no arcing.  Who is responsible for "Securing" the hazard?

If you notify the utility company that "their" wires are down in the street, should they be responsible? 

I say mark off the hazard area with caution tape.    If necessary get "Road Closed" signs from Highway or DPW and close the street.  If the public chooses to ignore your warnings, the local agency should not be responsible.  It is the same as if you were actually there and told them that they cannot go down the street and they ignore your warning.

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[FirNaTine 370]

Like I've said once before, Con Ed and NYSEG should start using their own employees like their meter readers to babysit these downed lines. Let them sit there in their little blue cars with their yellow teardrop lights instead of tying up a piece of fire apparatus with manpower that may soon be needed for a more serious incident. Especially if your Dept. is inadequately staffed and equipped to begin with.

[RWC130 594]

I posted this topic to get some POSITIVE feedback which most of you have done.

Those of you that did comment in a positive way THANK YOU!

Now for the rest of you that did not I will NOT tolerate any bashing of

Paid FF vs. Volunteer FF!

It's about WIRES DOWN.

This topic is now CLOSED!