EMS carrying protection?

[ems-buff 81]

Date: 10/20/06

Time: 2320 HRS

Location: Hudson Valley Hospital ER

Frequency: 155.505

Units Operating:  New York State Police, Westchester County Police

Description Of Incident:  PD units dispatched to HVHC ER after rec'd a call

from Security reporting family members of a PT in the ER are Assaulting Security

and Hospital staff.

Writer: RWC130

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You know i saw that once in St.joe's Er in yonkers where the guy wigged out and hit a gard, YPD was called and pepper sprayed the whole room with like 5 or 6 cops plus the gards at the hospital. Which Brings up a good point. Does anyone here think that EMT's and/or Medics should carry mase or some sort of Excue the word protection with them For your own saftey. I mean 9 time out of 10. The police or there before ems is even called but for the 1% It could mean life or death. Yes We are all tought that scene safety is our first thing you do, but what about if everythign seems ok and then changes at the drop of a hat. It has happen before. So what do you guys think?!?

Also this might get move to ems Forum. I put this here b/c if the incident

[helicopper 1,050]

You know i saw that once in St.joe's Er in yonkers where the guy wigged out and hit a gard, YPD was called and pepper sprayed the whole room with like 5 or 6 cops plus the gards at the hospital. Which Brings up a good point. Does anyone here think that EMT's and/or Medics should carry mase or some sort of Excue the word protection with them For your own saftey. I mean 9 time out of 10. The police or there before ems is even called but for the 1% It could mean life or death. Yes We are all tought that scene safety is our first thing you do, but what about if everythign seems ok and then changes at the drop of a hat. It has happen before. So what do you guys think?!?

Also this might get move to ems Forum. I put this here b/c if the incident

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The downside of EMS carrying any type of weapon (impact or chemical) is that once you use it on someone you're going to be the same person treating them for it and it could very easily be taken away from you and used against you - happens to cops too, so EMS'ers wouldn't be immune.

Also, using a chemical agent in an ER is bound to annoy the staff when they can't use the room while it's vented and cleaned up. Most hospitals have in-house procedures for violent or combative patients - if you're in their house I'd let them resolve it. If it's your a** - beat a hasty retreat. If you can't retreat, do what you gotta do with what you've got.

I was taught years ago that if you've got your stretcher, put it between you and the offender. They either have to go over it or around it giving you time (hopefully) to retreat to a safe location and await PD.

Stay safe!!

[20y2 43]

ALWAYS remember the most important rule when you get to work: GO HOME IN THE CONDITION YOU WENT TO WORK IN. I don't pretend to know every department's policy, but I would assume that almost all of them have protocols stating that weapons are not to be carried on duty. I don't know about you but I would rather make it home at the end of the night and have to worry about the breaking of a department rule then end up in the hospital because the 'Psychological First Aid' and Verbal Judo route didn't work.

Again, I AM NOT ADVOCATING THE CARRYING OF A WEAPON IN VIOLATION OF YOUR DEPARTMENT'S RULES AND REGULATIONS.

[Guest]

no need if you ask me. If dispatch info is shoddy, stage away until pd arrives. If the pt or third party becomes violent remove yourself from the situation and request pd (if not already o/s). If the pt is a potential edp, have pd ride in the back w/you.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

The best protection and weapon you have is your brain. There are many things you can avoid by thinking and there are many techniques to protect yourself as well.

Do I think EMS person should carry protection. Absolutely not. Should they know how to protect themselves with what they have and some self-defense manuevers. Yes!!

[Guest X963toOEM9]

alsfirefighter... I know we think on the same page... That is the last thing EMS providers need... You are exactly right we have all the pretection we need in our head... some just need to learn how to use it....

I know EMS providers who carry OC or retractable batons, etc... It is ridiculous. Those forms or defense require classroom training and yet people run around with them... putting themself and their agency at a huge liability....

The only EMS provider that should carry, are those who are qualified and train consistently on a Tactical team....

I have worked for years in Shady area's for years and never had an issue...

[Amato122 0]

There is no need for EMS to carry any weapons. If a situation is dangerous or violent walk(run) away. We don't get paid enough to deal with this nonsense as it is, or in the case of vollies you're not getting paid at all. Getting home to your families is priority #1. Getting felony assault charges or worse getting injured or killed is not. If you feel a need to get in confrontations, or are uncomfortable in the streets w/o a weapon than maybe EMS is not for you. I suggest seeing a psychiatrist and/or pursuing another career.

[STAT213 332]

I agree that we should not be carrying any sort of weapons as EMS folks. While there are a lot of mutts out there, there are people who respect that we are not cops. Now, some of us may look like cops with our uniforms - that is a whole different issue - but once word gets out on the street that we are carrying weapons, and word will get out, we lose something. I think ALSFirefighter said it best...use your brain. Know when things are gonna go bad and have an out.

[Guest bibbles10504]

I do not think EMS people should carry protection against patients. If a scene is too unsafe to get into, it is best to wait for the police to take care of it. Your personal protection is the most important, and you dont want to be another patient.

[Guest WCDES636]

I agree that we should not be carrying any sort of weapons as EMS folks.  While there are a lot of mutts out there, there are people who respect that we are not cops.  Now, some of us may look like cops with our uniforms - that is a whole different issue - but once word gets out on the street that we are carrying weapons, and word will get out, we lose something.  I think ALSFirefighter said it best...use your brain.  Know when things are gonna go bad and have an out.

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I guess the IAFF has changed you. Epecially in your area where the crazed moose or rabbid racoon may wonder into your scene. Remember your state motto!!!!!!!

[Guest]

We're allowed Bullet Proof Vests (at our expense). We're put in harms way enough times to know when it's time for us to step out and the "hut hut boys" to step in. Many of times I have wished that I had a Taser or OC spray. Where I work, the cops are either already on scene or two steps behind us.

There are those of us that have trained to defend ourselves. Ans sometimes we have to implement what we have learned. BUT ONLY AS A LAST DITCH EFFORT WHEN ALL ELSE HAS FAILED......or the cops arent here yet and we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Again, as always, ALS FF's wisdom and Fung Shui prevails.

Our brain is the bes weapon of them all. Don't put yourself in a place where you absolutely know that someones bones will be broken. SCENE SAFETY!!!!! We all learned that the first day of Basic class.

[Scottyk107 9]

Someone mentioned it in the post about the young emt getting the dog attacking a woman to stop. What about instances like this? He thought on his feet but if he wasnt so lucky that it would be a diffrent story. A taser surely could have been of help im guessing it would have the same effects on an animal. I dont think ems should have holsters with desert eagles but i think that some sort of protection should be there. Most departments have policies in place where the scene has to be safe but there are always those surprise calls.

[Guest bibbles10504]

I'd have to say a taser is a bit much. I think if anything were to be allowed it would be a minimal amout of pepper spray. I dont know about tasers, but i'm pretty sure you can have a small amount of pepper spray on you as a civilian, so I dont see how a dept could restrict that... but maybe they can (correct me if i'm wrong)

Also, about the dog, it seems like he went to the scene alone, which is a debate in itself (there is another post on this site about that) I think that if he went with the rest of the crew he would not have been able to go and get the dog to stop. It's all about scene safety, and using your head. But overall good job to him for stepping up

Edited November 13, 2006 by bibbles10504

[John Meeker Jr 0]

You dont want to walk in on a patient who could take your tool (Knife, taser, or whatever else) and apply it to you. An edp can be calm one moment and then while you are attending to them they could use it against you. This is why the police when traveling in our ambulances our required to go unarmed. this may mean that the patient must be restrianed. your safety is key but we don't escalate the situation.

I belive in being phsically trained to protect yourself, no weapons needed.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

John you got some good points...but it comes down to training. Also a knife wouldn't work, that is a deadly weapon. The other things discussed are either "less then deadly weapons" or incapacitants (pepper spray, mace).

Funny enough, with the guys I work with, I have the opposite, I fear for any idiot that might want to pull a weapon on us. lol. Chances are they will be weaponless pretty fast.

Are there surprise calls...yes..lets look at why. Can you get those "unknown medicals" thanks to our wonderful 911 system in Westchester...we all know the answer to that. But it still comes down to not acting like John Wayne and paying attention to your surroundings. Ride with any EMS provider that serves in an urban area and watch how they are aware of their surroundings, where they stand when they knock on the door and where they place themselves on certain calls when assessing/treating a patient.

For those that are pro defense and want to carry "self-defense" equipment. Show us the numbers. How many EMS providers are killed/murdered/maimed every year by perps, dogs, and whatever. Justify it with numbers and sell me it.

[Scottyk107 9]

Think of all of the things in the back of a bus that someone could use on you. Needles, o2 tanks, iv poles, anything can really become a weapon used against you. Its true about not having extrodinary number about hom many ems providers are killed/ hurt because I wouldnt even know where to look but I think that one life is worth the 15$ of mase.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I'm not putting a dollar and cents approach to the issue. I never do with any safety issue that involves the fire service or EMS. My point was show me where it is such a big need period. Is one life worth a can of $15 mace. No. But when often we can limit even being in that scenario, or putting OC or Mace in the hands of persons who might be a little more apt at putting themselves in a situation because in their mind they have it.

[SBVFD524 0]

I am on a EMS squad on a college campus. a handful of us have personal pepper sprays on our belts because we have had so Manny situations where you get caught up in a dorm room or " U GOT MU HOMEBOY IN TRUBLE" university police are most likely at least 3 min if not 5 min out from when we would call them. i have yet to decide weather its good or bad but its more of a safe feeling. i deff would not cary at home.

[Scottyk107 9]

als I agree with you and the point that when people are given something like that they all of a sudden become superman and their little can of mase is a m-16. Never thought of it that way till now it would cause more harm then good. thanks for helping me see that

[Guest]

carrying mase is going to come back to bite you in the a$$. the protocols and common sense should be pretty clear - stage away until PD arrives, its their job to secure a scene. Working in a city where stabbings, shootings, and gang violence are (unfortunately) common, staging away has never failed me.

[ny10570 745]

I am on a EMS squad on a college campus. a handful of us have personal pepper sprays on our belts because we have had so Manny situations where you get caught up in a dorm room or " U GOT MU HOMEBOY IN TRUBLE" university police are most likely at least 3 min if not 5 min out from when we would call them. i have yet to decide weather its good or bad but its more of a safe feeling.  i deff would not cary at home.

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I've seen too many people just shake off a good blast of OC right between the eyes and keep on comming. I will never let anyone I work with bring something with them that would escalate a bad situation. If I'm in an apt, stair chair holds the door open, my back is to the door, and my partner and I are between the door and everyone in the room. You wanna act a fool, you can do so without me being there.