High-Rise Firefighting In Westchester County

[x635 4,066]

Excellent article with an awesome graphic illustrating high-rise firefighting in the Journal News today (Thursday, October 19th 2006) And a fire service front page story.

Here's a link to the great graphic, a MUST view "Fighting High Rise Fires" drawn by Bill Beccera with input from fire officials:

http://www.lohud.com/assets/swf/BH456411019.SWF

And here's a link to the article itself:

As cities add skyscrapers, fire officials say planning is key to safety

I was glad to see that all the cities involved were at least considering adding staffing. According to Doc Kiernan, New Rochelle's even planning on going full time with Rescue 4, and re-opening a downtown company disbanded in 1976 and doing a strategic study. This comes a long way from a few years ago, when Engine 24 faced a shutdown and members faced layoffs. Very progressive.

Which brings me to thinking, New Rochelle, Yonkers, or White Plains don't have any "High Rise Units" like FDNY, that carry special equipment just for high rise firefighting to my knowledge. I wonder if things like these exist or are in the works, and if it would be reasonable for the developers to "donate" this apparatus or equipment.

[jloftus 28]

New Rochelle should be commened for there realistic and progressive thinking, the biggest problem with these jobs is just getting to the floor without your nozzle team being wipe out by the climb. ( up the stairway ).

Add searches , venting a real problem with high rise , and accountabilty.

I noticed Mount Vernon was not mentioned which makes sense since were going backwards with a " when and if it happens attitude " .

2006 and a 1960's attitude:

New Rochelle is becoming a department that is growing with there infrastructure and the needs of there members. Safety.

I wish them well.

[Scottyk107 9]

thats a great visual for the public to know what its like to attack fire in a high rise and posibbly make getting more manpower eaiser from a financial point of view.

[firecapt32 282]

The article was well written--"Doc" has a lot of great ideas and New Rochelle is putting them to work- useing federal money is the first step-getting the developers on your side is a second step. But getting the manpower and getting them on line and trained is the biggest step.

Again great article all departments should be developing high rise tatics-- even small departments get called into thise cities. How many times does Greenburgh go into White Plains (Greenburgh has a 6 story height limit) or Pelham or Eastchester into New Rochelle We all have to work togeather.

[FirNaTine 370]

While on this topic, what size hoseline does your Dept. utilize off of a standpipe for its initial attack, whether its in a highrise or not? We switched over to 2-75' lenghts of 2" with smooth bores a couple of yrs. back, finally replacing the 3-50' lenghts of 13/4" with a TFT fog nozzle that use to make up our standpipe paks. FDNY uses nothing less than 21/2" line with straight tips, on all standpipe jobs, whether it be in a highrise or not. Just curious, as to what are other Depts. protocols are and also, what are other Depts. sops. with regards to using elevators to gain access to upper floors whether they're in a highrise or not?

[Monty 35]

Excellent article with an awesome graphic illustrating high-rise firefighting in the Journal News today (Thursday, October 19th 2006) And a fire service front page story.

Here's a link to the great graphic, a MUST view "Fighting High Rise Fires" drawn by Bill Beccera with input from fire officials:

http://www.lohud.com/assets/swf/BH456411019.SWF

.....

Not being picky but an interesting illustration of a K Tool

Great piece - thanks for posting.

[Pudge3311 5]

What company in New Rochelle was closed in 1976?

[Jason762 2]

While on this topic, what size hoseline does your Dept. utilize off of a standpipe for its initial attack, whether its in a highrise or not? We switched over to 2-75' lenghts of 2" with smooth bores a couple of yrs. back, finally replacing the 3-50' lenghts of 13/4" with a TFT fog nozzle that use to make up our standpipe paks. FDNY uses nothing less than 21/2" line with straight tips, on all standpipe jobs, whether it be in a highrise or not. Just curious, as to what are other Depts. protocols are and also, what are other Depts. sops. with regards to using elevators to gain access to upper floors whether they're in a highrise or not?

←

Stamford FD uses 2-75' lengths of 2" hose with 15/16" tip on all standpipe jobs. As for elevators, if its below the 7th floor we're walking, above 7 floors, taking the elevator until 2 floors below the reported fire floor, with safety stops every 5 floors and always checking the shaft for smoke, water, etc. Also no more than 6 members in the elevator at one time, and preferably leaving one member in the elevator to act as the elevator operator to pick up other crews/equipment. Check how the apartments are lined up 2 floors below and the location of the standpipe hookup on the floor below the hookup (very important in scissor stair buildings). All members need a radio, irons, and SCBA in elevator. Also use FD elevator service when available.

[Guest]

The lost NRFD company...

To the best of my fading memory, 6 Engine (county number 26) was stationed on Harrison Street (along with 1 Engine) and responded second due everywhere in the city. The assignment in those days was only 2 & 1. It was an open cab American LaFrance with a large dry chemical extinguisher mounted with an attached hose near the driver side jump seat. It was jokingly referred to as TR 6 for "Turn 'round 6" because by the time it got to some further parts of the city (north end) it was told to turn around. Prior to Harrison Street opening, it was probably in the Church Street firehouse which still stands today. I also believe it was the first NR company to be equipped with SCBA, which made it a logical choice for being second due everywhere. I still remember members riding out on the back step.

There was a photo of it posted on EMTBravo a few months ago under old NR appartatus photos.

I may have some facts incorrect, and will not be insulted should any NRFD member clarify what I've posted.

[HFD23 37]

My dept use's 150Ft of 1 3/4 inch with a TFT low flow nozzel, we also supplement with 50ft of 2 1/2as the 4th length when needed due to some long hallways. This 150ft is kept in a high rise pack and includes a inline pressure gage and reducer off the standpipe outlet.

We also have 3 50ft flat packs of 2 1/2 totalling 150ft for larger fires with a smooth bore nozzel.

[RWC130 594]

VERY ENJOYABLE!!!

I think HIGH-RISE Firefighting is something we should all train on

City, Town, or Village. Even if your department does not have a single

High-Rise you might be called in M/A.

While on this thread, What does your Fire Department carry in a

High-Rise Bag? Do you use 1" 3/4 or 2" 1/2? Nozzle type?

Any suggestions from seasoned Firefighters on extra things we should

carry in a High-Rise Bag that maybe was not mentioned?

Monty, You grab the "K-Tool" and I will grab the "Fast Light" OK? LOL

[lad12derff 283]

From what I understand from the old salts who have almost all retired by now, 6 engine in New Rochelle was the "flying squad". They went to all jobs in the city and crawled in with their tanks to relieve the guys at the nozzle without tanks. From what I have been told was they very rarely used the tanks because of the cost to fill them at Allens sports shop. I was also told by a retired deputy chief that they lost 6 engine to put in all new sidewalks on Main st and they took the money from fire to pay for that project. Nice to see wa are appreciated for what we do.

Edited October 19, 2006 by lad12derff

[gss131 212]

VERY ENJOYABLE!!! 

I think HIGH-RISE Firefighting is something we should all train on

City, Town, or Village. Even if your department does not have a single

High-Rise you might be called in M/A.

While on this thread, What does your Fire Department carry in a

High-Rise Bag? Do you use 1" 3/4 or 2" 1/2? Nozzle type?

Any suggestions from seasoned Firefighters on extra things we should

carry in a High-Rise Bag that maybe was not mentioned?

Monty, You grab the "K-Tool" and I will grab the "Fast Light" OK? LOL

←

doesn't hurt to carry monkey wrench,comes in handy when the wheel is either missing or stripped.

[lad12derff 283]

New Rochelle uses 2- 75 foot long 2 inch hose with a smooth bore nozzle per engine company. All engines are required to bring them in. I think anything less would be dangerous to all companies operating. All standpipe bags contain a plumbers wrench for missing wheels, 2 1/2 by 1 1/2 adaptors for standpipes, gate valves, and spanner wrenches. Lets not forget to flush the standpipe before connecting because you never know what the creatures have been shoving up there that will now get stuck in the nozzle. All truck companies are required to bring in a length of 2 1/2 to a high rise fire and give it to the engines if needed. The goal is to put out the fire boys not piss it off. So put away your task force tip nozzles and 1 3/4 lines and let the trucks worry about venting. We don't need no stinkin' fog nozzle to vent

Edited October 19, 2006 by lad12derff

[HFD23 37]

No set nozzel is the solve all end all, each department use's different things for a reason.

ladder 12 how much pressure do u get on avg outa your hydrants?

[Guest]

I like the picture of the K-tool in the graphic version

[hudson144 150]

the article was informative to the lay person, however-alot of info was not presented or barely touched.Wouldn't it be nice to see a following article pertaining to the citys of westchester addressing issues such as manpower,mutual aid etc.Lets put the facts on the table without pointing fingers or bashing a dept. If a multi alarm fire happened on the upper floors of an high rise in some of the citys in westchester can they be handled? I am not talking about a room and contents fire but a good job on the upper floors with victims trapped and or missing. Reality is reality, are we prepared? Lets hope we do not see it. In many cases it is hard enough to bring a blaze under control in a 2 1/2 story woodframe structure. Manpower is a primary concern for all of us,lets put that on the front page of the Journal news mainly because it effects all of us here in westchester!!!

Edited October 20, 2006 by hudson144

[RWC130 594]

Hudson144,

AMEN BROTHER!

[FirNaTine 370]

From what I've heard from experienced members in FDNY, your best bet is to use a smooth bore nozzle, especially for an upper floor job where for the most part pressures are usually fairly low even with standpipe fire pumps installed or high pressure engines supplying the standpipe. However, you should always have a fog nozzle or at least a fog tip that can be connected to your straight tip if need be, for those rare occassions where a fog pattern is needed. That's why breakaway tips for smooth bore nozzles is a must. Not only can you change the nozzle tip right at the nozzle without shutting the line down at the standpipe outlet or the engine for that matter for normal operations, but you can also add additional lenghts of hoseline if need be without having to do the same. As for standpipe bags are concerned, how about adding something as basic as door chocks to your appliance bag for the fire stairwell doors. As far as White Plains FD and FDNR are concerned with regards to all the new highrises being built, are either two of these Depts. equipped with high pressure engine cos. for supplying the standpipes of these monsters. If not, it's something to think about when specking out further engine apparatus.

[cas2383 22]

In Port Chester on E-60 we carry since there are so many co-ops in our district, 4 50' lengths of 2 1/2 with a smooth bore, and in the standpipe bag, flashlight, F tool, few assorted adapters incase, inline pressure gauge as well as a couple of door chocks. Other Engines in town are similiarly equipped.

[Guest]

Oops, NRFD 6 Engine was a Mack.

http://www.emtbravo.lunarpages.com/SpecFea...ewRochelle.html

[ny10570 745]

My dept use's 150Ft of 1 3/4 inch with a TFT low flow nozzel, we also supplement with 50ft of 2 1/2as the 4th length when needed due to some long hallways.

←

What kind of flow do you get from the TFT at low pressure?

[HFD23 37]

What kind of flow do you get from the TFT at low pressure?

←

the low flow is designed to give u a Decent stream even with less then 100psi at the tip as most normal TFT nozzels require.

They make TFT's designed to operate at 50psi or 75psi and still give you in the range of 150-180 gpm..

Edited October 20, 2006 by HFD23

[Jason762 2]

the low flow is designed to give u a Decent stream even with less then 100psi at the tip as most normal TFT nozzels require.

They make TFT's designed to operate at 50psi or 75psi and still give you in the range of 150-180 gpm..

←

The problem with these nozzles, and it has been discussed here before a while ago, is that although these TFT automatic nozzles are designed to appear to have an effective, proper stream at low pressures, they are in fact not producing the GPM that is needed to effectively attack a fire. To the eye everything looks fine but you are flowing less GPM than you may think. This is just one of the problems with TFT nozzles, departments should look into using smoothbore nozzles for all hi-rise applications. I'd rather use a nozzle that is designed to be used at 50psi and whose GPM can be easily calculated, rather than one that appears to flow effective streams but does not in fact.

[FDNYDCHI 38]

Also don't forget if there are PRV (pressure reducing Valves) on the hose outlet to take them off. Your Control man can always gate down the pressue by closing the hose outlet a little.

NYC over 85 psi for 2 1/2" line and 55 PSI for 1 1/2" are requred for standpipe systems if there are occupant hoses on the outlets.

Chris

[FirNaTine 370]

Another disadvantage of the TFTs is the cost to repair them. Not so with smooth bores.

[lad12derff 283]

No set nozzel is the solve all end all, each department use's different things for a reason.

While I agree with this statement to a certain degree I must stick to my guns in what was being discussed and that was high rise firefighting. There is NO good reason to use a TFT nozzle in a HIGH RISE FIRE. we are not talking about a 2 1/2 story frame or a 4 or 5 story walk up. The GPM's, the penetration, the low nozzle reaction with 50 psi @ the tip of a smooth bore are nothing to compare with the ineffective GPM's and reach of the TFT. Not to mention the probie who didn't check the nozzle pattern before the tour started and has it on fog and has sent guys to the burn unit from steam. Just ask the Brothers from the Bronx who had to deploy a fire blanket from the floor above at the 3rd alarm on 2/26/06 if they wish they had a low pressure TFT nozzle that day. The pictures can be seen on nycfire.net.

And for your question on psi in hydrants, the lower part of the city has around 125 psi while some other parts can be as low as 75psi.

Edited October 20, 2006 by lad12derff

[Guest alsfirefighter]

While I'm not a fan of automatic nozzles or any fog/combo nozzle in general. There are some other departments in the country that utilize the low pressure TFT nozzles with success.

Another thing to remember is that you should do lead-outs with a smaller size line then what you are using. For example you should not use a 1 3/4" to feed a

2 1/2" line. As far as tools to carry. The most important thing is someone has to carry it. I've seen high rise packs that weigh a ton. We operate in teams. Split some of the stuff up. Monkey wrench I have to say is great. If your valves are standardize you can also get a couple extra hand wheels for them.

One last point I want to make is just remember that a high rise pack isn't just for high rises. It is also an extended lay pack. There are large single story buildings that often have a standpipe system in them also, like single story malls because of the lays that would be involved from the main entrances.

[ajsbear 11]

the article was informative to the lay person, however-alot of info was not presented or barely touched.Wouldn't it be nice to see a following article pertaining to the citys of westchester addressing issues such as manpower,mutual aid etc.Lets put the facts on the table without pointing fingers or bashing a dept. If a multi alarm fire happened on the upper floors of an high rise in some of the citys in westchester can they be handled? I am not talking about a room and contents fire but a good job on the upper floors with victims trapped and or missing. Reality is reality, are we prepared? Lets hope we do not see it. In many cases it is hard enough to bring a blaze under control in a 2 1/2 story woodframe structure. Manpower is a primary concern for all of us,lets put that on the front page of the Journal news mainly because it effects all of us here in westchester!!!

←

What Hudson said has a lot to it. If there was a good size job in the upper floors of a high rise it would be M/A. Lets say god forbid what just happened in NYC with a plane into a building happens here. We have a lot of new high rise buildings scattered that stand out. The new Trump building in New Rochelle, A plane in trouble over White Plains trying for the airport. The list could go on. Each one of those could and would be multi department response. We all need to be working together. It's going to be a nasty job. We need some standards in how we would approach this type of alarm. Just think of all that would be involed, fire suppression, rescue, evacuation, scene security.................

[16fire5 693]

Couple of things here

#1 if you are using 2" hose your sooth bore should be 1" by using a 15/16 you are limmiting yourself to 180gpm and might as well use 1 3/4" hose. The 1" tip on the 2" hose will give you i believe around 210gpm which is a damm good flow.

Tactics at these fires

The bag: in the city we use the numonic CAP SONG to remember what should be in the bag: Chocks, addaptors (FDNY to pipe & NH), pipe wrench, Spanners, outlet wheel, nozzle, and inline pressure gauge. For 3 legnths of 2 1/2" the control man will supply 70psi at the outlet with water flowing and 80psi for 4 legnths. Another good thing I think should be in there is an elbow which is helpful especially if the outlet is in a cabinet in the hallway.

I'm a smooth bore advocate myself but I entitle everyone to their own opinion. The thing you will find out in these fires is that over 95% of the time the fires are relativly easy to put out. But the one thing that can really screw things up is the wind. Wind driven fires are nearly impossible to beat even with 2 2 1/2's. Most of these fires will put themselves out after the wind driven fire consumes everything and dies down.

Bring the TIC this is one place where it really shines. If someone left an apt door open and the hall is charged the camera will help you quickly find the fire. Since the buildings are usually concrete there is a lot of heat and its hard without the camera to discern where it is comming from. Also if you are venturing out of the stairway before the line strongly consider the search rope even if conditions seem ok. If the windows fail conditions will deteriorate immediatly and your ability to follow the rope back to the stairway may save your life.

Always hook up below the fire. Don't vent windows until the fire is out. That's all I have for now.