Should Trucks have pumps on them?

[Guest]

This probably has shown up before on this forum, but I was reading another local forum. There was recently a working fire, and the box called for a mutual aid truck that was about 2 miles farther out then the closest truck, because it had a pump, there is many differences between the trucks besides the pumps. The one without the pump is a 110 ft ALF midmount with a platform, and the one with the pump is a 75 - 80ft seagrave(I think) rear mount (its more of a quint) . The arguments on the other forum were That calling in a truck without a pump will tie up and engine as well if you need to raise the boom, and the other one was the primary resposibilty of the truck is search and rescue, and the primary resposibilty of the engine is to pump water so in that sense it wouldnt be tieing up to peices.

[firefighter36 52]

Do trucks need to have a pump? No, trucks, by virtue of their name have no water and no pump. This dillema is along the same line of CAFS, among other technological advances firefighting.

Do I believe in quints? ABSOLUTELY! We are short manpower where I work (combo. fd w/ 4 FFs to run 2 ambulances, 2 engines and a quint!!) and in several instances, the quint (truck, ladder, whatever..) has proven itself invaluable, especially on college campuses, large buildings, etc. In fact, our quint has a larger pump than our engines! Most of the time, however, we stick to tradition with engines pumping, and here is why:

The only real drawback is that the ladder runs slower when the pump gear is engaged, even with high idle, which in theory, could interfere with a quick rescue if a handline is in operation. Though these instances are rare, all it takes is one to make you wonder.

Anyhow, the pre-piped waterway and the ability to quickly get water into it is great for watering the back lawn of the firehouse when we do checks, or for knocking down a fair amount of fire very quickly.

Obviously, engines and trucks are different for purposes of doing the job, there really isnt a big problem with having a pump on a ladder, unless you are in a larger city where rescues would be slowed down by pumping water, something politicians and penny pinchers may not take into account when trying to "streamline operations" or "increase efficiency."

Moral of the story: every dept. is different, and if it meets your needs, use it! Tradition is great, but stick with what gets the job done!

"America's Fire Service: 100 years of tradition unimpeded by technology and progress"

[Scottyk107 9]

I agree with the above it all depends on what fits your needs. A truck needs to perform truck tasks suck as searches, forced entry, or venalation. I think that having a pump and having to act as an engine my somethine impede on what their functions are. But again it depends on your department and needs.

[res6cue 67]

This is always such a hot button issue. The "To Quint, or not to quint..." thread on the firehouse.com forums is over 240 posts, some of them a bit hostile. Feelings definitely run deep on the topic.

Personally, coming from a vollie background, I like having a pump/tank on our aerials. Both of our aerials are quints, the 75' single axle rearmount stick and the 95' tandem axle midmount tower ladder. They each have a 1500 GPM pump and 340 and 300 gallon tanks, respectively.

What I like about them is that as a vollie dept, it gives you great flexibility. You don't have to worry about having an engine tied up just to pump the pipe. You also have another vehicle that is capable of extinguishing a fire if need be, especially if there is no engine immediately available. I like that self sufficiency. As of right now, all our trucks are wet, including the rescue. That will change when our new rescue is delivered, however, as there is no pump/tank on it. So in a way, we have gone away from the self sufficient philosophy, but we felt is wasn't any great loss on a rescue truck.

There are a few things I don't like about quints, however. There is definitely more maintenance involved with them, and more moving parts that can put the truck out of service. They are almost always heavier than their dry counterparts, which can pose additional problems. Although this doesn't affect me, I don't like when they're used in a career dept to reduce staffing requirements by combining an engine and truck company. I do not like them to take the place of an engine at a scene, I think they're very ineffective when used that way. Especially if the driver doesn't position the truck for best use of the aerial rather than stretching lines. We all know once those lines are deployed, you're anchored in place. Our dept flirted with using the stick as first due back when it was brand new. That was a very short lived experiment though.

Of course it comes down to individual needs and preferences. For our vollie dept, I think they're great, but only because we use them 99% of the time as a truck. We made sure not to sacrifice too much compartment space and we still have a big compliment of ground ladders on them (the 75' even has a 40' Bangor on it). We can get away with some reduced compartment space also, because we don't carry extrication equipment on the aerials like many depts do. We have a separate rescue and rescue-engine for that.

Incidentally, neither of our trucks really experience any slow down of ladder ops when the pump is engaged. Even performing all three motions simultaneously when the truck is at idle is still pretty quick. The newer tower ladder is better, which I suspect is due to better gearing of the hydraulic pump PTO or just a more efficient hydraulic system design.

Edited October 9, 2006 by res6cue

[IzzyEng4 427]

Mutual aid call for a truck company with a pump by passing another truck comapny just because it has a pump?!?!?!!?! Not cool in my opinion. If you are calling for a truck, they get a truck reguardless of pump or no pump. I just don;t see why but that could be another discussion.

Quints / Trucks with pumps are good but depend what a department needs. Rochester NY has several Quints in service and run side by side with a Midi-pumper (1000gpm pumps). I think it depends what a department's set up is. My department we have five engines in town so the new tower that came in had no pump. The department north of mine got a tower with a pump, they have four engines and they saw the need for a fifth "pumper". A department has to remember that whith a pump, should you carry water especially in a 100 ft aerial ladder or a tower and loos compartment space or ladder storage? I think quints are good and a very versital peice of equipment but depnding on a response area and what is best for a department.

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

some of the other post have stated each department has it's own needs and equipment should be purchased that meet those needs. Our dept has a tower with a pump. it works out well. there is no slow down in the movement of the aerial while it is pumping, it is even a little faster. The only draw-back is using the high idle when pumping, that messes up pump pressure big time.

Having it's own pump during the "big one" allows us to have the aerial lays its own supply line and not tie up an engine to supply it. We tend to run it second due in the hydrant district and it lays a supply line to the first due engine. this allows us to get a LDH line in place and the aerial in front . IF THIER IS A RESCUE SITUATION THEN IT IS USED PURELY AS A RESCUE DEVICE.

Having a pump will also allow you to use it as a back up when your engine are out at another run, tied up for maintainece or just out of service.

Back to the mutual aid question... not understanding the location of your concern. just my expierence. When we respond our tower to danbury... it is usually for surround and drown or protecting an exposure, we secure our own water supply and pump our own water. This set up does not tie up another engine company to feed us. Trucks with pumps have thier advantages. Remember, you dont have to be in pump to use the aerial.

It gets back to the simple rule... what are the dept needs and what works for you and how you use it.

[Fireman488 57]

Both Elmsford ladders have pumps, which works very well for us.

Our 75 foot stick has a 1750 gpm pump with a 500 gallon water tank and 30 gallon foam tank. Can operate as an engine or a truck. Very versatile.

Our 100 foot tower ladder has a 1500 gpm pump with a 300 gallon water tank.

Does not need engine company support to operate. Also very versatile.

Each district has different needs. This has been most effective for us.

[sr71 1]

my depts truck is a true truck. buts thats because we have 2 engines in my dept and there are plenty of engines in town of its needed to flow water. quints are a good system if your short on manpower in norwalk(the next town over and were i live) both trucks and there reserves have pumps. they have it to supply there own water and if the engines are out on ems runs(which they do around the clock) than they can act as an engine untill one gets there.

but its all up to the depts needs some need them some dont

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Special requesting a unit mutual aid is not a problem in my opinion. Even skipping some units mutual aid, in this case was only 2 miles, also isn't a problem so you do not strip the surrounding areas as well.

Perhaps the IC of that fire called for the quint because they typically carry 2000 gpm pumps and he had the water system to deliver to it. The only way the height of the ladder would come into play is if the building is high or set back from the road significantly where the 75' wouldn't be able to get above the highest level for use with the building height or the operating angle. Which, isn't always as big of a problem because if the building has openings use them. On strip mall fires the best place to have the master stream operating is up into the void, not down.

I believe quints are great, as long as you have a set system in place with policies and training to ensure you maximize their usage. Some departments have gone to a total quint concept and while many had some problems in the beginning, they worked through them by discussing them and making changes to get it to work. The key is strong SOG's/SOP's and training to back them up. If you're a quint and you're first due, position as if you are going to use the ladder regardless. I just highly recommend you ensure you grab a water supply being many only have 200 to 300 gallon tanks on them. In most instances it may be enough, but if your 2nd and 3rd due units take some time getting there, you may need the hydrant.

[Guest]

It wasnt a special call for the quint, it was on the original box alarm. Its about 2 miles into the 1st dues trucks coverage area then about 4-5 after, the first 4 or 5 depts closest to the fire ground do not have a truck, then there is us, then the dept with the quint. So being the quint so far out why would even have to act as an engine?

My opinion about should trucks have pumps is that there is no need. If your going to use the truck to wet down the fire its going to be an outside operation, if its an outside operation all the hand lines will be pulled and they will be plenty of engines around to supply the truck. Thats my thought, if anyone has another opinion please share.

I talked to some people and the 2nd truck is classifed as a truck and not a quint.

On a seperate but kind of on point topic, I dont think chiefs of depts should make there own box calls. I think the county should say on _________ type of calls this this and this go from the closest depts. Kind of making a standard like 3 engines 2 trucks and an rit on a structure, the closest 3 engines 2 trucks and rit go, if you need more you can always call it. The politics also have a role and I think we need to get over those as well, we dont go to 2 neighboring depts because the cheifs have beefs with eachother and they dont come to us. I think its a shame that were wasting resources like that. We recently had a working basment fire and all the depts came from north of us, and easily one of the 2 depts could have came from the south and hit a hydrant coming from the south. Actually that is kind of off topic and Im done with my rant now.

Edited October 11, 2006 by explorer21

[res6cue 67]

You're talking about two different things now. If you want to b**** about mutual aid companies favoring each other, or companies skipping over each other because so and so doesn't like the other Chief, that's one thing. Discussing whether or not aerial ladders should or shouldn't be quints is quite another.

The two points are these:

1. Some depts prefer quints, some don't. Some need that kind of apparatus because they can't guarantee they'll get many engines out, or they just don't have many engines to begin with. That's their choice and they go with what works for them. Just because it doesn't work for your dept doesn't mean a thing. As similar as we are with most things, we also have needs that are specific to ourselves that have to be addressed.

2. An Incident Commander should have every right to special call any unit he wishes, for any reason he deems it necessary. There may be reasons a certain piece is called for, or a certain company is skipped over, that might not be readily apparent. There are times we skip over a dept completely for mutual aid because we know given a certain day or time of day, calling them would create a manpower or apparatus void should there be another incident. On paper, mutual aid seems easy and it seems logical that you should pull from the nearest depts, but that's not always the best approach. The IC must retain the ability to run his operation as he sees fit. Now, if a pattern develops where it's readily apparent that he's purposely skipping depts because of a grudge, then perhaps a sit down is in order. But, in the end, he calls the shots. Period.