NIMS

[calhobs 110]

With the NIMS clock ticking down how many FD's are NIMS ready? To be honest with you I have seen very few Fire Departments taking any ICS classes. Hopefully you all been doing it online. I have been teaching ICS 200 & 300 since April here in the county and other places, and all the classes I would have to say I have had about a total of 10 Fire Fighters, and 3/4 of those were Career FF's. Now keeping in mind all my classes are during the daytime so I hope most of you are doing it at night and on line. This is something that is not going to go away. If anyone needs information on who needs what classes just ask and I will post it.

[JBE 328]

We're using a modified version of NIMS, it's called CIMS. We're working out the bugs with it. The new terminology is a little more long winded than what we used to use. I think if we stuck with some of the old terminology, or if our terminology was adopted by others, or modified a little bit, it would be a little more advantageous. Some of them are more concise than the NIMS stuff.

[exmrvfc 0]

Our dept is handling NIMS online. Since 300 is not required until next year, those who are required to, will take the classes. 100,200,700 & 800 are easily taken online.

[EMT1094 0]

anyone remember what the website is for the classes?? thanks

[Guest]

here you go:

http://virtualcampus.fema.gov/learningspac...endall/Main.asp

[subband 0]

http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/IS/is100.asp that is the link hope it works for you. http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/IS/is700.asp

[EMT1094 0]

Thanks!

[Guest]

You know the most important lesson I learned taking the NIMS stuff online?

NIMS = Useless waste of Gov't money

Edited September 28, 2006 by lfdR1

[Guest WolfEMT]

You know the most important lesson I learned taking the NIMS stuff online? 

NIMS = Useless waste of Gov't money

←

I couldn't agree any more! Personally, I wouldn't voluntarily take a class so that I could get qualified in the Incident Management skills that were oh so carefully honed in Louisiana last summer; but since I was forced to do so, I had to waste a Saturday afternoon by sitting in a classroom and learing crap I already knew. What I don't understand is that since NIMS is considered ICS-700 and is a required class, why is 300 being required in addition to the 700 class? Logically speaking, wouldn't ICS-700 supercede ICS-300??

[calhobs 110]

You really cant blame the Feds on this, NIMS and ICS has been mandated since 2002. Its not the feds problem if agencies did not start switching over then when it was mandated, its the local agencies fault. since no one switched over in four years now everyone complaining that feds are holding money over there head to switch. This has been in place since 2002, we all had the chance to take these classes and prevent then from holding back money, now everyone is complaning that the feds ar enforcing this when we all could of prevented it over a four year period just by taking three to five simple classes, We just have ourselves to blame

[FirNaTine 370]

You know the most important lesson I learned taking the NIMS stuff online? 

NIMS = Useless waste of Gov't money

←

Your absolutely 100% correct and the sad thing is, if 9-11 never happened, there'd be none of these requirements in order to obtain Fed. money. In fact there'd be no Federal funding. I'd much rather my Dept. comply with NFPA 1710 than with this NIMS B/S, which ends up being nothing more than another paper trail which seems to go right out the friggin window at every incident and results in Depts. both Career and Volunteer receiving equipment that will never be used and will just collect dust, like everything in our Squad Trailer. What also kills me is how some of these NIMS courses can be taken online and members and their Dept. actually get credit for them. Are you kidding me? Yeah, this is a legitimate program!

[Remember585 815]

What irritates me is that so many of us took the old ICS class BEFORE our fearless government saw an oppurtunity to turn it into a matter of money. I took the ICS course in 1995, with Ray Rush. It was a little boring but I got the basic concept. Now, we have to take I-100, I-700 and more for Officers - but it almost seems like it is redundant! All of these classes are pretty much the same, right?

Nothing for nothing, I really think the old ICS class we took covered our day to day stuff just fine....

Anyone else thinking the same thing I am?!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

While I agree with some of your comments. ICS isn't BS and its time that we've gotten on board with the program like most departments down south and out west. ICS when followed works wonders for emergency operations and for safety on the fireground. The way most of us have been operating and calling incident command is a joke. ICS is not a paper trail. In fact most of the operations we do involves no paper. Its about putting people in positions to better manage an operation and to improve span of control which is a huge problem in most departments I've been a part of and have witnessed. ICS also allows the growth of line officers and allows them to be used in the system in a more positive manner because they are clearly put in a position with a title to perform.

What is sad and B/S is that it took mandating by the federal government to get departments to train personnel on the system and now we just need to get them to buy into it and use it. It won't happen overnight and it takes time to get used to it and to see its benefits but it does work. Ask anyone else whom has ever operated under a true ICS system and they will attest to it. Additionally the 9/11 Commission report identifies that the Pentagon operation ran more efficiently becasue all responders utilized and understood the ICS sytem the way that NIMS outlines it. Obviously a different scope in size however the overall management of the incident was smoother. I am also a I 100/200 instructor and plan on delivering some courses in the coming months and I am hoping more departments will seek assistance in implementing and training with the system to get it going on all emergency scenes. The best way to get used to it, efficient with it and good at it is to you use it, on all types of calls.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

I couldn't agree any more! Personally, I wouldn't voluntarily take a class so that I could get qualified in the Incident Management skills that were oh so carefully honed in Louisiana last summer; but since I was forced to do so, I had to waste a Saturday afternoon by sitting in a classroom and learing crap I already knew. What I don't understand is that since NIMS is considered ICS-700 and is a required class, why is 300 being required in addition to the 700 class? Logically speaking, wouldn't ICS-700 supercede ICS-300??

←

1 - NIMS and ICS weren't used in Louisiana, that was a MAJOR part of the problem! Another big part of the problem was the politics but that's another topic.

2 - NIMS is NOT another ICS course. ICS is only the way NIMS requires us to manage incidents. The FEMA Independent Study (Independent Study = IS, not ICS) Course on NIMS Awareness is IS-700. The ICS course structure is I-100, 200, 300, and 400. The ICS training curriculum ends in the 400's with specialty position training.

3 - To be NIMS compliant, we have to do more than just take this training. There are several other sections of NIMS besides "command and management" where ICS lives.

4 - If ICS is such crap, why did the FDNY develop two incident management teams and send them out west to work with wildfire teams at wildfires?

[velcroMedic1987 330]

What irritates me is that so many of us took the old ICS class BEFORE our fearless government saw an oppurtunity to turn it into a matter of money.  I took the ICS course in 1995, with Ray Rush.  It was a little boring but I got the basic concept.  Now, we have to take I-100, I-700 and more for Officers - but it almost seems like it is redundant!  All of these classes are pretty much the same, right?

Nothing for nothing, I really think the old ICS class we took covered our day to day stuff just fine....

Anyone else thinking the same thing I am?!

←

You don't need to retake ICS if you took the 100 or 200 previously. If it was the old OFPC fireground ICS, the objectives are different from the national training curriculum (that predates NIMS) and you should take it.

I gotta say that if you took the course 10 years ago and don't really use ICS on a daily basis, a refresher isn't such a bad idea!

Every level of ICS (100, 200, 300, 400) is based on the same principles but the courses all vary in their focus. The 400 is geared for major incidents and command staff (Commissioners, Chiefs, Department Heads), the 300 focuses on developing a plan for extended operations, the 200 is about basic concepts and initial ICS and the 100 is just an orientation. They're all different!

Maybe the "old ICS class" covers day to day stuff but we very seldom actually apply the concepts in it and what about the NON-day to day stuff? Tornados, Microbursts, larger fires/haz-mats, MCI's, etc.????

We're not all that well prepared and practiced when it comes to using ICS!!!

I've been to plenty of incidents where we're supposedly doing ICS and nobody has a freakin' idea of where people are or what they're doing!!!

[FirNaTine 370]

In my opinion, what it really comes down to is having a well stuctured and Professional Dept. for any of the ICS/NIMS teachings to be applied. You have to have all the pieces of the puzzle before anything can work, but when your Dept. is constantly operating without the proper resources, whether it be equipment and/or manpower, including line officers for each apparattus, it becomes once again, nothing but a friggin smoke screen. If your Dept. doesn't have line officers, how can you expect them to grow and be utilized to a stronger extent within the System. The only Depts. that are able to follow these protocols from what I've seen are the big City Depts. and all the rest that once again, comply with NFPA1710. If your Dept. lacks the resources, the most important being human(manpower), to carry out the roles and responsibilities which are outlined for members within the ICS/NIMS Courses, the puzzle will never be complete.

[Guest]

If you can take these online why would anybody need to take a class on it. Just go to the web site and become compliant.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

If you can take these online why would anybody need to take a class on it.  Just go to the web site and become compliant.

←

Most classroom presentations are better than sitting in front of a computer that you can't ask questions to or interact with. You also learn from other participants in a classroom - you can't do that with a computer.

Don't forget, training is not the ONLY requirement for compliance!

[Guest WolfEMT]

1 - NIMS and ICS weren't used in Louisiana, that was a MAJOR part of the problem!  Another big part of the problem was the politics but that's another topic.

2 - NIMS is NOT another ICS course.  ICS is only the way NIMS requires us to manage incidents.  The FEMA Independent Study (Independent Study = IS, not ICS) Course on NIMS Awareness is IS-700.  The ICS course structure is I-100, 200, 300, and 400.  The ICS training curriculum ends in the 400's with specialty position training.

3 - To be NIMS compliant, we have to do more than just take this training.  There are several other sections of NIMS besides "command and management" where ICS lives.

4 - If ICS is such crap, why did the FDNY develop two incident management teams and send them out west to work with wildfire teams at wildfires?

←

OK VelcroMedic, take a Nitro and calm down a bit. It's my opinion. Whatever FDNY did, then good for them. Maybe they have their own version of it, for all we know. But when I sat in that classroom, I felt as if I wasted a day re-learning something that I already knew; thus, my opinion that NIMS is a bunch of crap. If you would like to discuss my opinion further, feel free to PM me.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

OK VelcroMedic, take a Nitro and calm down a bit. It's my opinion. Whatever FDNY did, then good for them. Maybe they have their own version of it, for all we know. But when I sat in that classroom, I felt as if I wasted a day re-learning something that I already knew; thus, my opinion that NIMS is a bunch of crap. If you would like to discuss my opinion further, feel free to PM me.

←

Don't take it personally, I hear both sides of the argument all day long. I don't think NIMS is a waste but I do think making almost everybody in the Country learn about it is a waste...

I can't take a Nitro, it reacts with my Viagra!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

If you feel you wasted a day going over something you already knew, why not work with the rest of your personnel to implement actually utilizing it. It works.

Having everyone learn is not a waste. Everyone needs to be on the same page so we can actually do what many keep telling themselves they are doing it and are so far off its utterly ridiculous.

Taking in a classroom environment is much better with interaction. I add on a small scenario to the 200 curriculum to get those to interact with each other to show the difference of what is occuring with the "incident command" as it is known throughout much of Westchester and actual NIMS based management and the difference it can make.

[sr71 1]

its the bigest pile of bs

[Remember585 815]

You don't need to retake ICS if you took the 100 or 200 previously.  If it was the old OFPC fireground ICS, the objectives are different from the national training curriculum (that predates NIMS) and you should take it.

Already did, enjoyed it, got the t-shirt. (Well, no shirt...but you get the point).

I gotta say that if you took the course 10 years ago and don't really use ICS on a daily basis, a refresher isn't such a bad idea!

For the most part, the FD I am a part of is pretty good about using Incident Command / Management. I agree with you too that if it is something you don't regularly use, you forget it. For example, ask someone about friction losses two months after thier class...

I've been to plenty of incidents where we're supposedly doing ICS and nobody has a freakin' idea of where people are or what they're doing!!!

The problem with the whole ICS / IMS thing is that so many people are afraid to change. It's amazing that people gripe over stupid things like calling it an "A-side" or the "1 side" - how people can't grasp the idea that we can survive without ten codes and - my personal favorite - God forbid the IC stays put at one place instead of roaming around. Some scenes are so bad you almost need an "ICFAST" to go find the person "In Charge."

One Department I've listened to and am impressed with is the White Plains FD. Just by thier radio designations at a scene you can tell who is where and what they are doing.

PS - good luck with the whole Viagra / Nitro thing....

Edited October 2, 2006 by Remember585

[ex-commish 490]

Taking in a classroom environment is much better with interaction.  I add on a small scenario to the 200 curriculum to get those to interact with each other to show the difference of what is occuring with the "incident command" as it is known throughout much of Westchester and actual NIMS based management and the difference it can make.

←

I agree and do the same thing when I do the I-200. I like to make my students think about delegation, accountability, etc. Also, interaction is sometimes the best way to learn.

For my department...I simply ran the I-100 and I-700 and had the members take the test. Wasn't a hard task just time consuming.

[Fireman488 57]

I agree and do the same thing when I do the I-200. I like to make my students think about delegation, accountability, etc. Also, interaction is sometimes the best way to learn.

For my department...I simply ran the I-100 and I-700 and had the members take the test. Wasn't a hard task just time consuming.

←

We did the same thing in Elmsford and had 100% membership compliance by September 30th.

Members who couldn't attend the classes took them independently online.

We have also implemented the ICS terminology on all of our runs. Still in the learning stage, but little by little the members are getting used to it.

Our goal is to make the system and its terminology second nature.

We are planning to do I-200 over the winter.

[Guest]

Double posted....sorry

Edited October 2, 2006 by lfdR1

[Guest]

Since I seem to have sparked some debate with my comments regarding NIMS being BS, I'll throw in my 2cent ellaboration.

I feel that this particular NIMS program is a waste of time and an over thought mess. Do we need a universal incident management system? Yes and very badly. This certainly isn't the way to do it. This is a silly online program that allows people to just blow through the test by pusing next as fast as possible. What should be in place is a fairly generic, non-specific chain of command. One that allows interoperability in the most basic form.

K.I.S.S. -Keep It Short and Sweet or in our case, Keep It Simple Stupid.

And with that, I'm going to go back to drinking my coffee out of a cut that leaks. Can't someon design a friggin' coffee cup that doesn't drip from under the lid at the seam?!!

...................uh, and thats what really grinds my gears. (reference anyone?)

[Guest WolfEMT]

Gotta love Family Guy

[Doc 11]

I think NIMS is latest set of burning hoops, smoke and mirrors compliments of the federal government.

Do we need a standardized incident command and management system... yes.

But NIMS is just poorly executed and inadequately planned.

I'm heavily involved in the municipal disaster planning and management side of things and it's much worse than the side firefighters, police and EMS people see. I doubt any municipality has a workable disaster plan that actually fits the NIMS requirements. I get the feeling from reading the updates and press releases that they're making it up as they go (except for the parts they steal from the wildfire coordinating group). And I fear that the whole program will get dropped as soon as a new moron moves into the white house, cleans house and appoints his own favorite patsies to FEMA and NFA.

[fire2141 33]

Since I seem to have sparked some debate with my comments regarding NIMS being BS, I'll throw in my 2cent ellaboration.

I feel that this particular NIMS program is a waste of time and an over thought mess.  Do we need a universal incident management system?  Yes and very badly.  This certainly isn't the way to do it.  This is a silly online program that allows people to just blow through the test by pusing next as fast as possible.  What should be in place is a fairly generic, non-specific chain of command.  One that allows interoperability in the most basic form.

K.I.S.S. -Keep It Short and Sweet or in our case, Keep It Simple Stupid.

And with that, I'm going to go back to drinking my coffee out of a cut that leaks.  Can't someon design a friggin' coffee cup that doesn't drip from under the lid at the seam?!!

...................uh, and thats what really grinds my gears.    (reference anyone?)

←

I couldn't agree more with that statement . I've been taking NIMS, CIMS and ICS classes for several years now, at first for my fire dept. and now for my NYC job. You are 100 percent correct in your accertion that it is an over thought mess. Each progressive class is just redundancie from a prior class with just a little more elaboration. It is micromanagement in its best description. If any of you took the old Hazardous Materials Incident Command class, in my estimation, it taught you all that you need to know about Incident Management. As for the different roles and types/classes ect... I really think that when things escalalte to that level the command structure then evolves to a state then federal level. Those officials are the ones that need to now the micromanagement. Us grunts in the field, operations or command structure are best at orchestrating the task at hand, having intimate knowledge of ones own department and area resources. If FEMA really wanted to help us they would have recognized and corrected the biggest problem emergency services face today and that is lack radio communications and interoperability. They know the problem and are reluctant to fix it due to the dollars it would cost to fix it. I beleive that if another Katrina like incident happens with NIMS/ICS educated responders will yield the same results, which were confusion and lack of communications. This by no means reflects negatively upon the responders, only the system.

Just my two cents.