60-Control Changing to Plain English

[res6cue 67]

R-6, just out of curiosity, since you and I have the same idea about nationally standard 10-codes. Would you consider, in this age of interoperability, standard 10-codes to be understood across the board??

I'm not sure I follow (sorry, I'm half asleep ). Are you asking if I think there ARE certain 10 codes that are more or less already understood across the board? Or are you asking if I think it COULD eventually be implemented and work, a universal system?

If you're asking if I think there are some that are already universal, I'd have to say maybe 10-4, but that's about it. I would suspect 10-4 means "acknowledged" just about everywhere, but there might even be exceptions to that one also, who knows. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but NYPD 10-13 is "Officer down", while FDNY 10-48 is "Request PD assistance forthwith", right? This is probably a good example of 10 codes gone wrong. You would think that in the same city they could agree on 10-13 being universal for "SEND HELP NOW!!!" Now certainly if you heard "10-13!" over the fire radio, you'd know what they meant, but I don't believe it's an official code? There isn't even a 10-13 listed on Frank Raffa's page that I can find.

If you're asking if I think we could all eventually agree on a universal 10 code system, I have to be pessimistic and say probably not, no. Again, I believe there originally was a universal system, and it got tweaked along the way to suit the individual agency's needs, and here we are.

So, as much as I think 10 codes have their place within a particular agency, I do agree that they're horrible for interoperability. I mean, if two agencies use the same 10 codes with the exception of just ONE, you might run into a problem, right?

[x242Steve 1]

Just putting in my 2 cents on the "10-4" issue...

Old Stamford Police Radio "10" Code... (We now use plain english.)

10-4: Assault With Weapon

...on the Fire side, if the "Signals" got confused with "10" Codes, then "10-4" would certainly not mean "message received".

(SFRD "Signal 4" means "Fire")

[JohnnyOV 2]

the only problem I can see is in the first few months...what happens when the first arriving unit mistakenly transmits the 10-75, instead of saying working fire....will 60-control ask for that in plain english, or just dispatch the working fire?

[JBE 328]

R-6, I was asking your opinion the feasibility of a nationwide 10-code implementation. Although it isn't listed as a 10-code in FDNY speak, we do have a 10-13 and 10-85 signal in our vernacular. However, it is used for a request by the Fire Marshals for the same thing as NYPD uses it.

Personally I think if it was implemented with subcodes for certain situations, it is doable nationwide. It'll take a while for it to catch on though.

[EJS1810 7]

the only problem I can see is in the first few months...what happens when the first arriving unit mistakenly transmits the 10-75, instead of saying working fire....will 60-control ask for that in plain english, or just dispatch the working fire?

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The Dispatcher would acknowledge the message with "Recieved, on the scene working fire" and dispatch the proper assignment. Durring the incident is not when mistakes are pointed out unless it is a safety issue.

[AFS1970 504]

OK now to jump into the fray:

Plain english, is just that PLAIN. Slang terms like Bus (instead of Ambulance) are not really plain english at all. We have a term in Stamford "Next on theList" which means send a tow truck. It goes back to the days when tow trucks were rotated call by call and you got the next truck on the list. (I should point out that they have been rotating day by day for at least 20 years). This term has also become a joke. When a cat or dog is struck by a car, it is not unusual to hear someone ask if Chins is next on the list today?. We had a Sergeant as for Next on the List at a DOA (He was asking for the local Funeral Home) and a Dispatcher who didn't get the joke sent him a TOW TRUCK. I personally think that a code or signal would have solved this problem, but if we are going to use plain english then it really has to be plain.

As for National Standards, APCO (which is a private organization) tried this a few years ago. I don't know of anyone willing to change to this standard. Stamfords ridiculous attempt at new codes (to comply with NIBRS reporting) was a good example of how not to change. Under the old codes a 10-13 was stolen property, which made it real interesting when Metro North would call on the phone and tell us they have a 10-13 at the Train Station. I guess Plain Language would have helped in that case.

A little know fact is that when FEMA said to get rid of codes last year, that was spread like wildfire. We got copies of the article in communications. A little while later when FEMA told the IACP (International Association of Chiefs of Police) that they could go back to using codes if they wanted, nobody paid any attention. Plain Language was only a national standard until the cops brought up security and brevity issues.

As for being buffy on the radio, I am not sure sounding like FDNY is a bad thing. Isn't FDNY the biggest FD in the world? I would guess they probably have more radio transmissions than anybody else. So if any single agency is in a position to spearhead a national standard, wouldn't FDNY be the logical choice? I have never said 10-75 on the radio, but I have told incomming units that a SIGNAL 4 has been transmitted on the box they are responding to. It's only one sylabel shorter, but isn't brevity why we started using codes in the first place?

As a kid I heard units call a 5,7 & 9 all the time. Now they are "Returning to Quarters from a False Alarm and Recalling the Incident". If that's an improvement, I don't see it. Brevity is more of an issue in these days of increased call volume than it was 20 or 30 years ago.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

OK now to jump into the fray:

A little know fact is that when FEMA said to get rid of codes last year, that was spread like wildfire. We got copies of the article in communications. A little while later when FEMA told the IACP (International Association of Chiefs of Police) that they could go back to using codes if they wanted, nobody paid any attention. Plain Language was only a national standard until the cops brought up security and brevity issues.

As for being buffy on the radio, I am not sure sounding like FDNY is a bad thing. Isn't FDNY the biggest FD in the world? I would guess they probably have more radio transmissions than anybody else. So if any single agency is in a position to spearhead a national standard, wouldn't FDNY be the logical choice? I have never said 10-75 on the radio, but I have told incomming units that a SIGNAL 4 has been transmitted on the box they are responding to. It's only one sylabel shorter, but isn't brevity why we started using codes in the first place?

As a kid I heard units call a 5,7 & 9 all the time. Now they are "Returning to Quarters from a False Alarm and Recalling the Incident". If that's an improvement, I don't see it. Brevity is more of an issue in these days of increased call volume than it was 20 or 30 years ago.

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Not exactly correct. Plain language is the national standard for interagency or interdisciplinary communications in mutual aid and interagency operations. If an agency is communicating internally it can continue to use codes. For example, the FDNY can continue to use its codes on a day to day basis but when they respond to another jurisdiction or in the unlikely event that outside mutual aid is summoned to the city, plain English is to be used. WHen the FDNY communicates with other city departments (Building, OEM, PD, Port Authority, MTA, Con Ed) they use plain English not codes.

If we're talking about brevity, let's start training people to SHUT UP on the radio! There's no need to recap an entire incident on the radio. "Return all apparatus" or "returning to quarters" should suffice. If more info is required, use the phone at the station.

The other problem with universal or national codes is that there are profound differences in the needs of the fire service, police, and EMS. Are we going to have a 10-103 for a car fire, 10-104 for house fire, 10-155 for haz-mat, 10-234 for a burglary in progress and 10-235 for past burglary and a 10-401 for an allergic reaction, 10-402 for car accident, etc. etc. etc. etc. ? Who's gonna remember all that???

You said it yourself, plain English is just that. If someone starts using slang or worse, deal with the INDIVIDUAL - don't change the system because of one or two people who just don't get it!

10-4?

[1075thebox 1]

No more 10-Codes??

What am I going to change my handle too - "Working Fire The Box?!"

Damn you, NIMS!!!!

[EJS1810 7]

No more 10-Codes??

What am I going to change my handle too - "Working Fire The Box?!"

Damn you, NIMS!!!!

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You could just say "I'm Batman!"

[RWC130 594]

How about Standard APCO Ten-Codes?

10-1 Cannot understand your message

10-2 Your signal is good

10-3 Stop transmitting

10-4 Message recieved ("OK")

10-5 Relay information to _________

10-6 Station is busy

10-7 Out of service

10-8 In service

10-9 Repeat last message

10-10 Negative ("no")

10-11__________ in sevice

10-12 Stand by

10-13 Report __________ conditions

10-14 Information

10-15 Mesage delivered

10-16 Reply to message

10-17 En route

10-18 Urgent

10-19 Contact __________

10-20 Unit location

10-21 Call __________ by telephone

10-22 Cancel last message

10-23 Arrived at scene

10-24 Assignment completed

10-25 Meet __________

10-26 Estimated time of arrival is _________

10-27 Request for information on license

10-28 Reques vehicle registration information

10-29 Check records

10-30 Use caution

10-31 Pick up

10-32 Units requested

10-33 Emergency! Clear the air

10-34 Correct time

www.apcointl.org

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Ok. Some of you hang on for the ride but this is getting ridiculous.

I was wondering if some of you have re-read your posts. You make one point, and then a paragraph or a post later you make the opposite side of the argument from what your saying.

One person says like we all don't speak english in emergency services on the radio. Farmer Brown speaks the same language we do. Ten codes in some of your quests to "shorten radio transmissions." Also has a down side to giving a good proper verbal size up report on the radio. You gonna come up with 10 codes for that too? Why not, according to someone its more professional, its buffier sounding and shortens the transmission. "Engine 1 to dispatch, I'm 10-19, ten - nine thousand nine hundred and ninety-nine." Wow. Hold on let me check my list. 10-9999...ok he's on the scene with a working fire in a 3 story wood frame occupied dwelling w/ fire showing from the 2nd floor of side A and he is requesint an additional 1 and 1. Cause that is much shorter then "engine 1 on the scene, 3 story wood frame OMD, fire showing 2nd floor side A, give me an additional 1 and 1. You're all right, plain english would never work.

Some of you what national standard 10 codes in one breath, but when those mention that Dutchess and other counties use plain english you try to say that what works for Dutchess might not work in Westchester or Rockland and vise versa. WELL WHICH ONE IS IT? Standardized 10 Codes nationwide, but what works in Dutchess won't work 2 counties down? Pick an argument and stay with it. National 10 codes, right. Because the amount of 10 codes needed and that would have to be memorized would work in California and here in NY. Or what LA, NY, Chicago, St. Louis, Houston, Dallas, Phoenix would like or need, would really make sense in Witchita, Utica, Burlington, or BumFu(k. Don't forget plain english won't work because apparantly they speak different out there.

WE CAN'T GET STANDARDIZED TRAINING REQUIREMENTS IN THE STATE OR THE COUNTRY AND YOU SAY YOU WANT NATIONWIDE 10 CODES!?! WAKE UP FIRE SERVICE.

What is the priority here? Who gives a real $hit of what is said on the radio other then most of you sound like your worried about tradition and that dumb a** 10-75 that wasn't even on the list but so many have to use because it sounds cool. They want plain english, stop complaining and saying it won't work and make it work, train to make it work. Attitude is a reflection of leadership. If some of you are leaders all you do is make whiners of your members and make them discount something before they can make their own judgement or want to make it work.

I'll tell you what...some of you keep worrying about plain english and cops having blue lights on cop cars and snow. The rest of us will worry about trying to keep your a$$ safer through training, insight, lessons learned and new equipment technology.

[Guest]

I think the overwhelming fact is that plain English works. If everyone is concerned with playing FDNY, then go take their open competitive. The overall goal here (in my eyes) is streamlining. Not only will this make life easier on your average incident scene, but it will make calling for and coordinating mutual aid during larger incidents far easier. Having worked w/ 10 codes and currently working with plain English I cant give the latter enough praise.

Edited October 22, 2006 by 66Alpha1

[JohnnyOV 2]

I'll tell you what...some of you keep worrying about plain english and cops having blue lights on cop cars and snow.  The rest of us will worry about trying to keep your a$$ safer through training, insight, lessons learned and new equipment technology.

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Thank god someone finally said it. In all honesty who really cares how we say something over the radio (still in the professional tone of course). Sure there is tradition and what not, but its time for a change people. Wake up, smell the coffee and catch the bandwagon...If you don't want to jump on, then don't bother chaseing it down.

[emt301 4]

They want plain english, stop complaining and saying it won't work and make it work, train to make it work.  Attitude is a reflection of leadership. 

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Amen Brother !!!!

[Guest WCDES636]

I can not believe that "Very Good" did not make it to the proposed list of acceptable plain english terms for 10-4.

[RWC130 594]

Yes, Let's NOT forget "Very Good" and my personal favorite "No Joy"

[mlfcemt093 0]

......is the horse dead yet?...........