Turnoat Coats- Which Fastening System Is Best?

[Guest]

any strong opinions on which is better?

[Bunkers 0]

I personally like the zip and velcro. its faster.

While doing a bail out drill, sliding head first down a ladder, the clips kept getting hung up on the rungs.

[res6cue 67]

I've worn them both (even in combination) and have never had a problem with either. My first coat was the traditional snaps under the flaps with hooks on the outside. My second coat was a zipper inside with velcro on the outside.

Here are my thoughts about each closure:

Zipper

Pro: Quick and easy to operate and provides a full seal

Con: Sometimes they get stuck or jammed or can split open under enough force

Velcro

Pro: Generally they use a wide enough strip of industrial strength type that it holds closed very well and provides a full seal

Con: It sticks to itself (obviously), but sometimes before you've had a chance to line it up properly. More of a hassle than a problem though.

Snaps

Pro: Easy to operate

Con: Leaves you exposed as there is no seamless seal. Can pop open under enough force.

Hooks

Pro: Easy to operate and very strong

Con: Leaves you exposed somewhat. Also, when put on the outside of the coat, they can get snagged while you're crawling around.

[Firemn2742A 14]

Both are ok , never had a problem with zipper and velcro ,,seems to last.

When given the an option ,, go with zipper velcro QUICK & EASY, no gaps

Edited August 25, 2006 by Firemn2742A

[Firefighter57 0]

id have to agree. the zipper and velcro i like better because they are quicker and to me, less of a hassle. the snaps and hooks take to much time and are just a pain to me.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

I have found that zipper and velcro are much more effective. They are most definitely quick and easy to use, as well as they form a complete seal. Of course, this is all when they are used properly, as with any equipment.

With that said, as with any equipment, problems will arise, but IMHO, zipper and velcro are so much more effective than snaps and hooks.

[IzzyEng4 427]

I had the worst coat, velcro inside and hooks outside. Well, I was issued this coat, I went from my old Globe snap and hook coat to this one, needless to say my department at the time "didn't realize" that you need to spec out turnouts and just bought what ever was available. Needless to say we had a major fire and I got some exposure due to the inside velcro opening up!!! GO FIGURE!!!!

Well thankfully I still had my old trusty Globe coat, though much old but I trusted it more with the snap in, hook out closure and put it back in service. I still have that coat that opened up on me and only use it for shoveling snow, since that is what is is only good for.

The department smartened up with new chiefs and new complete sets of turnouts came in. My coat now has a zipper inside and velcro outside overlap (the way it shoud be configured with velcro being used) and i like it. I haven't had any problems though I do like the old d-hooks since you know they were secured but there is advantages to the zipper / velcro sytle.

[Guest SQUADco119]

Me personaly i like the snap and hooks better I think its quiker and sometimes your zipper gets stuck doesnt realy matter that much but if i had a choice hooks.

[Guest]

Call me a traditionalist, but I don't like zippers, just think they can be tricky getting stuck and what not. I prefer the snap/velcro combo with a hooked flap over that.

[DMA327 12]

I like the snap and hook because it will never get stuck and it doesn't too much harder than the zipper and velcro. The snap and hook wont fail to come off either but i know people whose zippers have come off. what a drag!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I'm a hook and "D" man myself. My experiences with PPE with zippers are after a while they don't like to stay zipped up all the way and you get a V at the top that exposes you. Plus IMO the hooks are more substantial then the zipper for some FAST maneuvers for moving a downed firefighter. I have yet to see a zipper fail during these operations I must point out, but to me the other just looks stronger.

With the way most turnout jackets are made today you don't get much of a gap wtih the hooks when you use the snaps on the interior and then the hooks are on a flap that cover that.

When I've had to get either one repaired the hook was reparied quicker on the spot, where when a zipper style jacket I had wore out it took a few days until a new one was sewn in.

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

I prefer the zipper and hook&D myself.

[Guest]

After growing up with the snap and hook system, I am now a convert to a zipper system. Both hooks and zippers are velcro closures now so I have no comments on velcro.

Here is my rationale:

1. The hooks give you several anchor points to hang gloves and a variety of other tools and accessories. Try doing a ladder bail with these on your coat.

2. I was personnally entangled by a hanging cable TV wire in a fire. It was entangled on something hanging off my old hook closure type coat.

3. If you really want total heat protection you need to close the snaps and the hooks (at least until Velcro came along). I don't know of anyone in the history of the fire service that used the snaps on the coats. Velcro closures are great but if it fails, it creates a gap and that is where the heat enters. You have no redundancy. If Velcro fails on a zipper coat the zipper has no gaps.

I feel that buckle and Velcro closures are fine, but I am not using that in our spec because I feel very strongly that the less stuff hanging off of coats, the safer it is for us. I would rather give up tradition in favor of safety.

But, the most important things are to mandate that everyone wear gear and maintain it. That is how we stay safe.

[Guest]

Oh, and one other question that I forgot in my original response. What does FAST have to do with the closure? If you are using the integrity of the coat as part of a FAST victim removal, you are putting a lot of faith in the integrity of the fabric. Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but the comment was interesting to me.

[res6cue 67]

BTW, I much preferred the zipper under Velcro closure. It was quick and easy to close, even in the back of a pitch black truck with gloved hands. It also made the best seal possible and didn't have any exterior protrusions to get caught or snagged. The zipper was heavy duty brass and I never had a problem with it over the course of over 6 years with the same coat. Also, I never had the Velcro come undone either.

As far as the FAST comment/question, the integrity of the fabric is the least of your worries. Most gear today is PBI which is interweaved with Kevlar, meaning it's very tough stuff. You'd be hard pressed to tear it or have it otherwise fail if you dragged a guy by his coat. The weak link would be the closure system. I will say, I've seen and had hooks come off gear over the years, especially suspender hooks. It's not too difficult for the rivets to either break or tear right through the gear. With a zipper/Velcro setup, both closures run the entire length of the opening and are sewn to the outer shell material itself using Nomex or Kevlar thread.

Edited August 26, 2006 by res6cue

[Guest]

I like the snaps and hooks better. I have had them on gear in the past and never had a problem. My current gear has a zipper and velcro. I am constantly cleaning lint from the velcro. Every time I wash my gear the velcro picks up so much fuzz that if I don't spend 20 minuetes removing it, the velcro will not work. One set up I find interesting is on Morning Pride. There are snaps every few inches in the velcro and the hooks on the outside. When used correctly, this provides a complete seal.

[Remember585 815]

I WAS a fan of the zipper until mine broke. Now I have to fight it all the time when I am suiting up. I want my hook & D's back!!!

[res6cue 67]

Speaking of zippers, what are they making them out of these days, plastic? My coat (a 1997ish vintage Janesville Commando) actually had a brass zipper which was pretty sturdy. Never had any trouble with it at all.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

What I was referring to in regard to FAST tactics with strength, like I said is my own preference I guess with what I feel the most comfortable with. The "hook and D" fastners just look more substantial and for me have outlasted any zipper assembly I've worn.

While the fabric today as pointed out by Rescue 6 is very tough, there is some significant stress that is placed on the fastners when utilizing a gemtor harness up through the coat when raising or lowering a downed firefighter. That was the point I was making with my last post.

[gss131 212]

Oh, and one other question that I forgot in my original response.  What does FAST have to do with the closure?  If you are using the integrity of the coat as part of a FAST victim removal, you are putting a lot of faith in the integrity of the fabric.  Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but the comment was interesting to me.

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maybe what als is referring to is the system yonkers uses in its morning pride turnouts.A full harness built into the shell with a removable tag line under a flap on the upper back.

[Guest]

This has a little to do with the topic. I was wondering, Does Morning Pride produce Zipper up coats also or do they just use Hook n' D?

Edited September 3, 2006 by NRFDTL11Buff

[res6cue 67]

Yes, Morning Pride offers zipper closures as an option.

[gss131 212]

Oh, and one other question that I forgot in my original response.  What does FAST have to do with the closure?  If you are using the integrity of the coat as part of a FAST victim removal, you are putting a lot of faith in the integrity of the fabric.  Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but the comment was interesting to me.

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if there is a rescue harness built into the coat ,i would guess the closure would come into play when put under stress.