Rank,Maturity and Experience

[210 91]

I start this thread as not to distract from the real purpose of the LODD of Officer Concepcion/NYPD. My point is the fact that we have 23 year olds holding the rank of captain. Before I go any further if there are any early 20's or so officers reading this please don't take offense. I respect any volunteer firefighter that is ambitious and wishes to move up the ranks. I say volunteer because your not going to be career and obtain captain at 23.

I'm retired from the Air Force and currently a full time police officer. Through my military career I've had to deal with several young officers and NCO's that were just not ready to lead. This does'nt make them bad people but a degree or other schooling, classes, etc. does'nt make you a leader. While degrees and traing are great you just can't beat what actual experience teaches you. A combination of training and experience is vital to an up and coming fire officer. I know there are probably small rural departments that have to promote for lack of senior members. Should there be age and experience requirements? I don't know and I know each department has it's own unique requirements to sustain itself.

Not that his rank had anyhting to do with what happened but when you read "A fire captain" in the paper I think the common citizen expects more from someone holding that rank.

My two cents. Agian no disrespect to any young officers out there. Good on you for making a difference.

[capt36 9]

I don't believe that he was a Captain. WCBS-TV reported that the captain plaque was his father's who is a Captain in the VAC in Saddle River. My heart goes out to the officer's family. If he was DWI, under the influence of drugs and misusing the warning lights and is found guilty he should get the maximum penalty. Another black eye for the fire service.

[210 91]

I don't believe that he was a Captain. WCBS-TV reported that the captain plaque was his father's who is a Captain in the VAC in Saddle River. My heart goes out to the officer's family. If he was DWI, under the influence of drugs and misusing the warning lights and is found guilty he should get the maximum penalty. Another black eye for the fire service.

←

I stand corrected. However, I do believe lack of experience can be a problem with efficient leadership.

[emt301 4]

My point is the fact that we have 23 year olds holding the rank of captain. Before I go any further if there are any early 20's or so officers reading this please don't take offense....I know each department has it's own unique requirements to

←

You think that's bad, I know of a department were the ASST CHIEF is 23 years old...really makes you wonder about the state of today's Fire Service.....

Edited August 16, 2006 by emt301

[ajsbear 11]

You think that's bad, I know of a department were the ASST CHIEF is 23 years old...really makes you wonder about the state of today's Fire Service.....

←

301, Is that the same department where one of the Lt's is 18?

[res6cue 67]

I've seen both side of this debate throughout the years. I've seen young guys that make it up the line too fast and just aren't ready for it. I've also seen some young guys that are old souls and are fantastic leaders and well respected. By the same token, I've seen some older guys that have no clue and are just pushed along up the ladder until they hit Chief, but should definitely not be there. It works both ways, there's no doubt about it. Ultimately it comes down to the individual, and while it might generally be true that younger guys are less mature, less experienced and therefore less able to be a leader, it's certainly not always the case. Believe me, I've had the unfortunate displeasure of being "lead" by a 40-something year old Chief who was pretty much inept at just about anything he did, and lacked both the confidence and respect of the men under him. Meanwhile, there were 25 year old guys with whom I would trust my life with to make the right calls and get us all home alive and well.

As far as it being a problem limited to volunteer depts, I find it hard to believe that there are no bad officers in career depts. Or the military, for that matter. Of course there are. Granted, it's certainly a lot harder to slip through, but it happens. As long as you have officers primarily being promoted by popular election in the volunteer service as a whole, it's not likely to change. You can try to put standards or tests in place, but in the case of a very small dept with limited membership composed of younger guys, I don't really see that they have any alternative.

[210 91]

I've seen both side of this debate throughout the years. I've seen young guys that make it up the line too fast and just aren't ready for it. I've also seen some young guys that are old souls and are fantastic leaders and well respected. By the same token, I've seen some older guys that have no clue and are just pushed along up the ladder until they hit Chief, but should definitely not be there. It works both ways, there's no doubt about it. Ultimately it comes down to the individual, and while it might generally be true that younger guys are less mature, less experienced and therefore less able to be a leader, it's certainly not always the case. Believe me, I've had the unfortunate displeasure of being "lead" by a 40-something year old Chief who was pretty much inept at just about anything he did, and lacked both the confidence and respect of the men under him. Meanwhile, there were 25 year old guys with whom I would trust my life with to make the right calls and get us all home alive and well.

As far as it being a problem limited to volunteer depts, I find it hard to believe that there are no bad officers in career depts. Or the military, for that matter. Of course there are. Granted, it's certainly a lot harder to slip through, but it happens. As long as you have officers primarily being promoted by popular election in the volunteer service as a whole, it's not likely to change. You can try to put standards or tests in place, but in the case of a very small dept with limited membership composed of younger guys, I don't really see that they have any alternative.

←

I agree. There are good and bad officers everywhere. It's so not limited to volunteer depts. What I meant was I dont think theres a whole lot of 23 year old captains in career depts. And yes it depends on the person.

[mfc2257 464]

You think that's bad, I know of a department were the ASST CHIEF is 23 years old...really makes you wonder about the state of today's Fire Service.....

←

I agree that we must be wary of young officers. However there are some out there that are the exception to the rule and even though this conversation isn't ment to offend, we should commend those who are capable of filling slots as young officers... One of them is a close friend of mine. He is a 26-27 year old Assistant Fire Chief in Gettysburg, PA. (click on the link below for his bio) A department that runs 500+ fire and 1500+ ems runs annually. He was also a Career FF with Franklin County Company 7 (Fayetteville - Chambersburg) at age 20 and a Career FF with Washington DCFD at age 24 or so. I can honestly say that at his age he is perfectly qualified to fill his role as the Asst. Chief of a busy Volunteer FD. Besides having 10 years of Vol. FF experience and 7 years of career FF experience he's got the pro-board qualifications to back it up.

http://www.gettysburgfd.com/eiker.html

I too was a young officer (So was Remember585) and had I not taken a year to live in the city after college, I probably would have been an Asst. chief at 27 as well. So if you do see a young officer don't necessarily label them as worthless. Listen for a minute, they may be wise beyond their years.

[210 91]

I agree that we must be wary of young officers.  However there are some out there that are the exception to the rule and even though this conversation isn't ment to offend, we should commend those who are capable of filling slots as young officers...  One of them is a close friend of mine.  He is a 26-27 year old Assistant Fire Chief in Gettysburg, PA.  (click on the link below for his bio) A department that runs 500+ fire and 1500+ ems runs annually.  He was also a Career FF with Franklin County Company 7 (Fayetteville - Chambersburg) at age 20 and a Career FF with Washington DCFD at age 24 or so.  I can honestly say that at his age he is perfectly qualified to fill his role as the Asst. Chief of a busy Volunteer FD.  Besides having 10 years of Vol. FF experience and 7 years of career FF experience he's got the pro-board qualifications to back it up.

http://www.gettysburgfd.com/eiker.html

I too was a young officer (So was Remember585) and had I not taken a year to live in the city after college, I probably would have been an Asst. chief at 27 as well.  So if you do see a young officer don't necessarily label them as worthless.  Listen for a minute, they may be wise beyond their years.

←

Good advise.

[dools16 1]

Good advise.

←

Career officers are usually older but that does'nt make them good officers. Usually experience will help the officer. That's the problem with some vol outfits, they are young and inexperienced.

[emt301 4]

Career officers are usually older but that does'nt make them good officers.  Usually experience will help the officer.  That's the problem with some vol outfits, they are young and inexperienced.

←

My point exactly about the 23 year old assistant chief. Yes, many young firefighters are good officer material...but in most suburban or rural volunteer departments, how many working fires has a 23 year old been to...training is great, but it needs to be combined with experience. Let the young firefighters put in a few years as firefighters and perhaps lieutenants actually going into fires and getting to know the capabilities of their fellow department members...then let them become captains and chiefs as they become more mature.

And, yes AJSbear, the department I was refering to has some very young lieutenants also.

Edited August 17, 2006 by emt301

[mfc2257 464]

My point exactly about the 23 year old assistant chief.  Yes, many young firefighters are good officer material...but in most suburban or rural volunteer departments, how many working fires has a 23 year old been to...training is great, but it needs to be combined with experience.  Let the young firefighters put in a few years as firefighters and perhaps lieutenants actually going into fires and getting to know the capabilities of their fellow department members...then let them become captains and chiefs as they become more mature.

And, yes AJSbear, the department I was refering to has some very young lieutenants also.

←

I'm not hearing any solutions to this issue.

How about starting here.... If it looks like (for whatever reason) there is a young officer that is coming up in the near future, lets have some senior members of the department step up to mentor such an individual by helping them understand the complexities of being an officer at such a young age. Also, if there are any senior members who were officers at young ages then even better to mentor the current youngblood. ALSO it is easy to get frustrated inside the confines of a single organization when there is no one who is well suited to mentoring a young officer (just because someone is old and salty doesn't mean they are the best choice to help a young officer do the best job possible). Don't let pride get in the way. Sit the young officer down and explain what you want to do in order to better help him in is role as a leader. Then, shop around to some other departments that might offer good young leaders as examples to live by.

Whatever we do though, don't let a young officer fail because no one wanted to spend the time to help him or her.

[JBE 328]

I had a situation before I left Lake Carmel. I was sitting in the crew chiefs seat of the ambulance as we were getting ready to respond on a run. One of the Lieutenants was sitting outside with a few of the local girls who liked to hang around the firemen. The way he came off, was in my mind, him trying to make himself look cool in front of the ladies. "I thought only EMT's could ride in the front seat." I poked my head out the window and said loud enough, "I am an EMT, D##khead." and off we went.

When I returned, he gave me this speech about how I should respect him because he was a Lieutenant. I apologized for my remark, but also added that I would show him the respect due his rank when he started acting like someone worthy of that rank. To his credit, he did apologize for not knowing I was an EMT.

Being an officer or a chief doesn't make you a better person when you're an @$$hole, it just makes you an @$$hole with stars and bars on your collar.

Edited August 17, 2006 by JBE

[Guest]

Being an officer or a chief doesn't make you a better person when you're an @$$hole, it just makes you an @$$hole with stars and bars on your collar.

←

This discussion reminds me so much of the "Peter Principle"--and I've seen it in every organization, not just first responders. People somehow are able to rise just one level above where they are competent, then they stay where they are incompetent and are stuck there. And everyone else is stuck with them. I think also the issue is one of ego...some people just don't know when to check it at the door.

[hudson144 150]

some promotions are a joke even in the career side.I know stuff that goes on that I could not even post on here, promotions should be based on- work ethic,experience,knowledge of the job,as well as if the person actually will be able to lead his crew. sometimes the civil service laws in place are not in the best interest of the job. an interview of the persons eligible for promotion should be in place and the persons doing the interview should keep in mind that the person that you promote will be responsible for others lives!!!

[Guest WolfEMT]

Sometimes age plays a factor in determining the worthiness of an officer, sometimes it's his/her level of common sense, and then sometimes it boils down to his/her maturity. I'm almost 23 years old and I'm the Sergeant for my EMS Squad. Does that mean that I'm automatically qualified to be Captain? No. (Just as an aside, in my department, Captain is the equivalent of Chief.) However, does that mean that I'm not qualified to be Sergeant as well? No. I felt as if I could do the job as Sergeant, both in my responsibilities on the road at scenes and at the house as a line officer. So far, I think it has worked out, although I am constantly looking for ways to better myself as an officer. So what makes a good officer? Someone with a level head. A level head that comes through training and quick wit so that he/she can mentally prepare for every possible situation at an emergency scene. And I think that is what EMS Squads and Fire Departments should do; they should look at the person's qualifications when they come up for review and vote for the line position and then make the decision as to whether or not the person is the best qualified for the job. Sadly, many elections have become popularity contests and this sort of qualification review has gone by the wayside. That is not only a stupid way to conduct business, but it's also dangerous; especially when you find yourself at a difficult call or fire, and you look at your line officer for advice, but even they don't know what to do. This rank and maturity debate wouldn't even exist if departments would exercise better judgment when choosing their officers.

[res6cue 67]

I'm almost 23 years old and I'm the Sergeant for my EMS Squad. Does that mean that I'm automatically qualified to be Captain? No. (Just as an aside, in my department, Captain is the equivalent of Chief.) However, does that mean that I'm not qualified to be Sergeant as well? No. I felt as if I could do the job as Sergeant, both in my responsibilities on the road at scenes and at the house as a line officer.

Ah, here's another aspect of this whole discussion. The fact that in many volunteer organizations, a lower ranking officer is quite often the incident commander. How many times have we seen where the junior most lieutenant (or engineer, chauffer, etc) winds up being the highest ranking officer on scene? Or many times the senior member, senior driver or driver of the first due apparatus is the IC in the absence of any officer?

I couldn't even count how many times I've not only seen it, but that guy was me back in my early days. It happens, it's the nature of the volunteer service beast. So no matter what your rank or position is in the dept, you have to be prepared to step up to the plate and lead. Which only makes choosing officers, and drivers even, that much more critical. Generally a 22 year old junior lieutenant isn't going to have near the experience an older captain or chief will (should) have, but they MUST be competent enough to take that older officer's place should they find themselves acting in that capacity at any given time. Any good organization will strive for a "plug and play" type chain of command, where almost any given senior member, and most certainly any driver/chauffer, is capable to act in a capacity above their current rank up to and including the overall IC.

This is where good training and mentoring becomes absolutely critical. It's also where it makes it a more important decision when it comes to choosing new drivers. It's simply not enough to pick a guy that "can drive a truck" and put him through a pumping and driving class anymore. There has to be high standards set for the position of driver. It essentially has to be treated as an officer's position in so far as the training requirements and fireground experience goes.

Edited August 17, 2006 by res6cue

[Guest goldfrach]

I am torn on this issue. On one hand, I think that the most important aspect for any emergency service officer is experience and level of respect. The only way a line officer can truely know what to do in any given situation is through their experiences. Anyone can read a book and take a test. That is the easy part. However, as we all know, the book can only teach you one dynamic to any given situation. If you don't live the situation you really didn't learn it and understand it. However, does that mean that just because you are older, you have more experience then younger members? Not necessarly. (This is esp. true in volunteer agencies). I have been working in EMS for 9 years, 6 of which as an EMT and Crew Chief. As a part time job, I also worked commerical EMS. When I stopped riding full time, I was 23 years old. I know for a fact, that I would have done an outstanding job as an officer, because of my experiences both with my VAC and commerical job. There were members in my dept that were much older then me, but did not have the amount of experience as me.

Therefore, while I think that people under 18 might not be mature enough to make life-saving decisions, I do not think that age is the biggest factor that should go into promoting an officer. Age should probably be one of the lowest factors. It should be based on maturity, experience, respect, track record (going back to experience), and education level that should be the main criteria for promoting officers.

[AFS1970 504]

I think that there needs to be a combination of age, experience and training. Age is of course important because as we get older we have experienced a little bit more of life. Experience is important but is relative to the department, you can have the most experience within your department without any outside experience, which can be both good and bad. Training is becomming more and more important as call volume goes up but fire volume goes down. Training is also becomming important from a legal standpoint. You can be a capable officer without any certificates, but sometimes all those certificates come into play after an incident, when the court of public opion goes into session.

I made the mistake of being a young officer a few years back. I was elected Lieutenant when I didn't have the experience or attitude I should have. I made it 8 months into a 1 year term, before loudly quitting. I stayed around as a firefighter and took some more classes, and this year was elected as a Captain. I'm not sure I'm better at it than I was, but I am better prepared to do it, which may make all the difference.

One comment on the election or popularity contest method of promotion, my department like many volunteer departments elects our officers for set terms. I think this provides a check and ballance system, as the membership can review and remove a bad officer. But popularity contests are not limited to volunteer departments, as some departments leave promotions up to politically appointed civilian commissions with little or no fire service experience.

I agree that in a perfect world all our officers would be our best and brightest, but this is not a perfect world. Sometimes we become officers, not because we are the best but because we are the best option. All of us, but especially younger officers, can not afford to stop training or trying to improve ourselves within the fire service.

[Guest WolfEMT]

I'm almost 23 years old and I'm the Sergeant for my EMS Squad. Does that mean that I'm automatically qualified to be Captain? No. (Just as an aside, in my department, Captain is the equivalent of Chief.) However, does that mean that I'm not qualified to be Sergeant as well? No. I felt as if I could do the job as Sergeant, both in my responsibilities on the road at scenes and at the house as a line officer.

Ah, here's another aspect of this whole discussion. The fact that in many volunteer organizations, a lower ranking officer is quite often the incident commander. How many times have we seen where the junior most lieutenant (or engineer, chauffer, etc) winds up being the highest ranking officer on scene? Or many times the senior member, senior driver or driver of the first due apparatus is the IC in the absence of any officer?

I couldn't even count how many times I've not only seen it, but that guy was me back in my early days. It happens, it's the nature of the volunteer service beast. So no matter what your rank or position is in the dept, you have to be prepared to step up to the plate and lead. Which only makes choosing officers, and drivers even, that much more critical. Generally a 22 year old junior lieutenant isn't going to have near the experience an older captain or chief will (should) have, but they MUST be competent enough to take that older officer's place should they find themselves acting in that capacity at any given time. Any good organization will strive for a "plug and play" type chain of command, where almost any given senior member, and most certainly any driver/chauffer, is capable to act in a capacity above their current rank up to and including the overall IC.

This is where good training and mentoring becomes absolutely critical. It's also where it makes it a more important decision when it comes to choosing new drivers. It's simply not enough to pick a guy that "can drive a truck" and put him through a pumping and driving class anymore. There has to be high standards set for the position of driver. It essentially has to be treated as an officer's position in so far as the training requirements and fireground experience goes.

←

My department has the sort of "plug and play" aspect that you describe. All of the line officers work together to form a seemless entity when we're running a scene. Yes, each person may have a different spin on things, but the general running of the scene/incident is the same no matter what rank is running the scene. I've run scenes from the simplest, to the most demanding, to the most bizzarre; and I wouldn't have been able to do that without my training prior to becoming Sergeant (ICS-100, 200, 300, and 700) or without the constant training that I do with the rest of my line.