FAST, How Long Do You Wait?

[robert benz 344]

There is some discussion going on in another forum about FAST and response.

There are quite a few problems that can arise, that can cause a delay in having a mutual aid FAST response, or for that matter, mutual aid in any form. Here's my question, how long do you wait to notify the requesting dept that you cant fulfill the order?

Because if the closest dept cant field a team, and it is around the 15 / 20 minute mark already where is your next team responding from.

some of the problems, time of day, weather, social functions, or how about another incident going on at the same time.

Westchester has a pretty good M/A plan in effect, but let a good Nor-easter or a blizzard come thru, and and most depts will be dealing with thier own pile of brown stuff before they can send or receive.

[hudson144 150]

In some cases the fast teams that are in place are just a smoke screen,just because you have 2 firefighters standing IFO the fire building doesn't mean that a true team is in place.The initial stages of the fire are important to all especially to the victims you are trying to rescue. I have seen many incidents where the fast team shows up and the fire is out! For those depts that just put 2 firefighters IFO the structure thinking that they have satisfied the rule they are only hurting themselves. Trining is important on how to rescue one of your own. Every firefighter that is on the so called fast teams needs the training. I know that manpower is a major problem for most these days but the team is not beneficial to anyone if they don't know what they are doing. Tools and equipment for the rescue are needed also, TIC,ropes,stokes basket to mention a few,placement of ground ladders for bailouts from the floors above,this all comes into play when it is time to get out or time to get someone out!

[exmrvfc 0]

Bob,

Good question. I beleive the FAST assignment should be on the 10-75 ticket from the beginning. If the dispatcher thinks you are going to work, add the FAST (just like NRFD adds the 4th engine). If your mutual aid partners are not FAST qualified, at minimum get an extra company to stand by (Tim Sendelback from firehouse magazine calls this the safety engine). Then start working with your mutual aid partners to get the FAST training done. Up until now Camp Smith has been running regular classes and there was no reason not to get it done.

As far as your mutual aid departments not fielding a team for 15-20 minutes, I would bet the same problem happens if you called them for a truck/engine and its time to talk with them about the response.

[junior215 0]

Sort of off the topic, but why did Brewster call Bedford Hills for a FAST team during their fire this week? Aren't they a little far??

Not a dig at BHFD.They are probably one of the better FAST teams in the county, but they are a good distance geographically. However, I do not know Putnam well so they might be the same distance as some Putnam mutual aid.

PS - I have to give the Hills credit. First Ridgefield, CT, now Putnam. What is next mutual aid ----- Stamford, Rockland???

[RocklandFires 44]

In my departments case, any report of smoke or fire in a building, a F.A.S.T. Team from Valley Cottage is dispatched automatically. Better to get another department rolling right away just in case, then to need one in an emergency situation and not have one in place. To the best of my knowledge, we are the only department in the County that does this. We also have our own F.A.S.T. team with at least 10 certified F.A.S.T. Team members. I believe West Haverstraw also started this. A few weeks ago we were called to a fire in Orangeburg for a F.A.S.T. Team because of the fact that the Chief knew how well we were trained.

It's the same thing with the Tappan Zee Bridge. In years past when it was covered by Nyack, when an incident happened on the Rockland side of the bridge, only Nyack was dispatched. When an incident happened on the Westchester side of the bridge, only Tarrytown was dispatched. Why not have both departments roll at the same time just in case one of them can't get to the scene because of a traffic jam. Once we took it over, that's what our Chiefs did. We set up a mutual aid agreeement with Tarrytown that we both respond on all calls. Works out great ! I can't imagine not being able to get to an accident scene on a bridge and then have to call a department from the other direction 5-10 minutes into an incident. Just doesn't make sense.

[TimesUp 148]

I agree with ya Bob, Its sort of a false sense of security for the guys inside. They may have an agreement with a neighboring dept. But if its the middle of the day they might be waiting awhile.

How long do you wait until you go to plan "B". Or do you just operate as if you won't have a fast team. Or as a dept you only rely on your own team.

I know, I know, I said "Fast team" please forgive me.

[Guest]

quote from exmrvfc

If the dispatcher thinks you are going to work, add the FAST (just like NRFD adds the 4th engine)

We send 3 Engines, a Truck and the Rescue on all reported structure fires. It’s up to the Deputy from there, Depending on the situation he will call for an additional engine to serve as fast or use what he has on scene. Bump to second alarm. or how ever he wants to run the incident.

[Firefighter57 0]

Sort of off the topic, but why did Brewster call Bedford Hills for a FAST team during their fire this week? Aren't they a little far??

Not a dig at BHFD.They are probably one of the better FAST teams in the county, but they are a good distance geographically. However, I do not know Putnam well so they might be the same distance as some Putnam mutual aid.

PS - I have to give the Hills credit. First Ridgefield, CT, now Putnam. What is next mutual aid ----- Stamford, Rockland???

←

HAH, we were all wondering the same thing. i guess since Lake Carmel fast was going to work, they needed a new fast and we were the closest fresh fast team...? not sure how many putnam has but i am guessing its either staffing issues with another fast that is closer or infact after LC went to work, we were the closest.

[SQDBOSS 6]

These were my thoughts, last week with my post. With the amount of training Dept's are stressing these days and the overall attitude towards requests for Fast and creations of them from within. Why aren't ALL Dept's falling into line, regarding FAST? Whether it come from a neighbor upon initial response, or from within if the Dept is able to ! Nobody wants the unexpected to occur, so why not attempt to be (1) step ahead.

[BFD1054 1,552]

We've discussed this issue alot, both on this incident & others, but i think its a good topic to discuss.

All of you have brought up good points. The fact that BHFD is quite a distance from Brewster is a bit of an issue. But as stated, Lake Carmel was called and put to work and the 2nd due FASTeam was unavailable. Hands down, there is no issue with BHFD's FASTeam in itself. They were requested and they responded within a reasonable time with TRAINED personnel. When i took the FAST class at Camp Smith, i had the pleasure of working/training with a bunch of guys from BHFD and they were awesome! So, needless to say, the fact that BHFD was called isn' so much the issue. The issue is that there are only 3 (i believe) FASTeams in Putnam Co. to choose from.

We are blessed in my area (Tri-Village). On any given working fire, Croton FD is the 1st due FASTeam for most FD's in my area. In my experience, we have never waited more than 10 minutes, from time of dispatch, for Croton's FASTeam to arrive on scene. I happen to be friends with many of the guys from Croton FD, which makes it nice to work with them. I know they are all well trained and experienced. When they get on scene, they send a leader or Chief officer to the Command post, while their members do their thing. They are a very, very pro-active team in that they are constantly doing size-ups and they are not shy on throwing ground ladders for eggress! But even in times where we (or Montrose or Verplanck) have had to put the team to work, we are fortunate in that we have Peekskill right next door, or Mohegan or Ossining, all of which are excellent teams.

One issue that i do have however, and i see it all to often, occurs when the original FASTeam goes to work. My issue is that if the original FASTeam goes to work for manpower reasons, than you are leaving YOUR men unprotected so to say. My feeling is that if you need manpower, than call for a mutual-aid company with an engine, rescue or whatever with manpower and keep your FASTeam for that purpose. This way, your men are never without that added protection and further more, you are not stripping the area of FASTeams. I don't know, thats just my own opinion, but how does everyone else feel?

[robert benz 344]

We've discussed this issue alot, both on this incident & others, but i think its a good topic to discuss. 

All of you have brought up good points.  The fact that BHFD is quite a distance from Brewster is a bit of an issue.  But as stated, Lake Carmel was called and put to work and the 2nd due FASTeam was unavailable.  Hands down, there is no issue with BHFD's FASTeam in itself.  They were requested and they responded within a reasonable time with TRAINED personnel.  When i took the FAST class at Camp Smith, i had the pleasure of working/training with a bunch of guys from BHFD and they were awesome!  So, needless to say, the fact that BHFD was called isn' so much the issue.  The issue is that there are only 3 (i believe) FASTeams in Putnam Co. to choose from.

We are blessed in my area (Tri-Village).  On any given working fire, Croton FD is the 1st due FASTeam for most FD's in my area.  In my experience, we have never waited more than 10 minutes, from time of dispatch, for Croton's FASTeam to arrive on scene.  I happen to be friends with many of the guys from Croton FD, which makes it nice to work with them.  I know they are all well trained and experienced.  When they get on scene, they send a leader or Chief officer to the Command post, while their members do their thing.  They are a very, very pro-active team in that they are constantly doing size-ups and they are not shy on throwing ground ladders for eggress!  But even in times where we (or Montrose or Verplanck) have had to put the team to work, we are fortunate in that we have Peekskill right next door, or Mohegan or Ossining, all of which are excellent teams.

One issue that i do have however, and i see it all to often, occurs when the original FASTeam goes to work.  My issue is that if the original FASTeam goes to work for manpower reasons, than you are leaving YOUR men unprotected so to say.  My feeling is that if you need manpower, than call for a mutual-aid company with an engine, rescue or whatever with manpower and keep your FASTeam for that purpose.  This way, your men are never without that added protection and further more, you are not stripping the area of FASTeams.  I don't know, thats just my own opinion, but how does everyone else feel?

←

I have a question, When you stated lake carmel was put to work, was it as the FASteam?

[Guest]

There are two FAST Teams in Putnam County - Lake Carmel and Brewster. Other departments have individuals who are FAST trained but there are no other teams. The next closest are Bedford East Fishkill.

As for when a FAST Team is requested and how long you wait for them - each department has their own set of plans regarding the FAST Teams. Some want them dispatched on initial dispatch and some want to request them.

Edited August 23, 2006 by PC422

[Remember585 815]

Captain Benz...

I think what most people mean when they say the FAST is "put to work" is that it is used for suppression efforts, not actual firefighter rescue. I believe that was the case at this Brewster job.

BFD - thanks for the credit. We've actually been criticized for throwing ladders, clearing windows and yes, pointing out safety issues to Incident Commanders. One Department we responded to once told us that we were nothing more then glorified buffs. Ouch. Suddenly we don't go there as much.....ho-hum.

Our Team, for the first time in 8 years was unable to respond recently to a fire in Ossining. After waiting 8 minutes (seemed longer) it was decided to contact 60 Control to send another in our place. As it turned out, the two additional people we needed were home, but did not hear the dispatch (Thanks Minitor IVs). Poop happens, I guess. We all agree that we don't want to respond with unqualified people, even though that apparently works for some other places.

I also agree with Hudson that several times, a FAST is nothing more then a few people hanging out on the outside of a job, not doing anything more then keeping OSHA happy. It's BS. You are there to protect and, God forbid, RESCUE your brothers and sisters! Don't take FAST as a joke, because nobody will be laughing if one of us gets killed.

We had a fire last July near midnight which actually came in as a possible boiler malfunction. As we stepped off the Engine, I noticed that the smoke wasn't "lingering" but it was "pushing" and informed the Chief we had a worker. It wasn't for another 10 minutes or so that a FAST was dispatched, even though I asked for it much sooner. I hate nothing more then when an IC waits until it is confirmed to start a FAST. We should be smart enough, especially in 2006, to know that it takes time for our resources to get moving - even staffed ones. Traffic, weather and crew availability is too unpredictable. Call 'em in and cancel 'em if you don't need 'em. Better to have too many guns at a gunfight then not enough!

I pose one question for everyone - if you can't get a full FAST, which for us is 6, do you not respond or do you go with what you have and call for an additional one? I would like to see us all go with the second option, but it would only work well if we started to train together - rather then do our own things.

Thoughts?

[robert benz 344]

Captain Benz...

I think what most people mean when they say the FAST is "put to work" is that it is used for suppression efforts, not actual firefighter rescue. I believe that was the case at this Brewster job.

BFD - thanks for the credit. We've actually been criticized for throwing ladders, clearing windows and yes, pointing out safety issues to Incident Commanders. One Department we responded to once told us that we were nothing more then glorified buffs. Ouch. Suddenly we don't go there as much.....ho-hum.

Our Team, for the first time in 8 years was unable to respond recently to a fire in Ossining. After waiting 8 minutes (seemed longer) it was decided to contact 60 Control to send another in our place. As it turned out, the two additional people we needed were home, but did not hear the dispatch (Thanks Minitor IVs). Poop happens, I guess. We all agree that we don't want to respond with unqualified people, even though that apparently works for some other places.

I also agree with Hudson that several times, a FAST is nothing more then a few people hanging out on the outside of a job, not doing anything more then keeping OSHA happy. It's BS. You are there to protect and, God forbid, RESCUE your brothers and sisters! Don't take FAST as a joke, because nobody will be laughing if one of us gets killed.

We had a fire last July near midnight which actually came in as a possible boiler malfunction. As we stepped off the Engine, I noticed that the smoke wasn't "lingering" but it was "pushing" and informed the Chief we had a worker. It wasn't for another 10 minutes or so that a FAST was dispatched, even though I asked for it much sooner. I hate nothing more then when an IC waits until it is confirmed to start a FAST. We should be smart enough, especially in 2006, to know that it takes time for our resources to get moving - even staffed ones. Traffic, weather and crew availability is too unpredictable. Call 'em in and cancel 'em if you don't need 'em. Better to have too many guns at a gunfight then not enough!

I pose one question for everyone - if you can't get a full FAST, which for us is 6, do you not respond or do you go with what you have and call for an additional one? I would like to see us all go with the second option, but it would only work well if we started to train together - rather then do our own things.

Thoughts?

←

I would like to say we havent used the fast for fire suppression but that isnt the case . If you are special calling a fast unit to the scene, mutual aid, and you need more manpower, at least in this case it sure would be easier i think to call for another truck or engine and leave the fast for what it is.

i know the old saying put out the fire and all your troubles go away,but it is nice to know someone has your back at a call, and isnt 10 minutes away because you used the first team to vent the roof

[FirNaTine 370]

Captain Benz...

I think what most people mean when they say the FAST is "put to work" is that it is used for suppression efforts, not actual firefighter rescue. I believe that was the case at this Brewster job.

BFD - thanks for the credit. We've actually been criticized for throwing ladders, clearing windows and yes, pointing out safety issues to Incident Commanders. One Department we responded to once told us that we were nothing more then glorified buffs. Ouch. Suddenly we don't go there as much.....ho-hum.

Our Team, for the first time in 8 years was unable to respond recently to a fire in Ossining. After waiting 8 minutes (seemed longer) it was decided to contact 60 Control to send another in our place. As it turned out, the two additional people we needed were home, but did not hear the dispatch (Thanks Minitor IVs). Poop happens, I guess. We all agree that we don't want to respond with unqualified people, even though that apparently works for some other places.

I also agree with Hudson that several times, a FAST is nothing more then a few people hanging out on the outside of a job, not doing anything more then keeping OSHA happy. It's BS. You are there to protect and, God forbid, RESCUE your brothers and sisters! Don't take FAST as a joke, because nobody will be laughing if one of us gets killed.

We had a fire last July near midnight which actually came in as a possible boiler malfunction. As we stepped off the Engine, I noticed that the smoke wasn't "lingering" but it was "pushing" and informed the Chief we had a worker. It wasn't for another 10 minutes or so that a FAST was dispatched, even though I asked for it much sooner. I hate nothing more then when an IC waits until it is confirmed to start a FAST. We should be smart enough, especially in 2006, to know that it takes time for our resources to get moving - even staffed ones. Traffic, weather and crew availability is too unpredictable. Call 'em in and cancel 'em if you don't need 'em. Better to have too many guns at a gunfight then not enough!

I pose one question for everyone - if you can't get a full FAST, which for us is 6, do you not respond or do you go with what you have and call for an additional one? I would like to see us all go with the second option, but it would only work well if we started to train together - rather then do our own things.

Thoughts?

←

I would like to say we havent used the fast for fire suppression but that isnt the case . If you are special calling a fast unit to the scene, mutual aid, and you need more manpower, at least in this case it sure would be easier i think to call for another truck or engine and leave the fast for what it is.

i know the old saying put out the fire and all your troubles go away,but it is nice to know someone has your back at a call, and isnt 10 minutes away because you used the first team to vent the roof

←

True to some extent Bob. Then there's the other side of the coin. If you don't put that initial fast team to work to carry out an immediate vital task, whether it's venting a roof or stretching an additional line, you just may in the long run have to use this fast team to rescue one of our own, as a direct result of waiting for the latter units to arrive to carry out these tasks, which needed immediate attention. Especially if a Depts. so called Fast Team(SMOKE SCREEN= So We're NOT held LIABLE by OSHA), consists of only 2-3 men. Just another way of looking at it.

[Monty 35]

True to some extent Bob. Then there's the other side of the coin. If you don't put that initial fast team to work to carry out an immediate vital task, whether it's venting a roof or stretching an additional line, you just may in the long run have to use this fast team to rescue one of our own, as a direct result of waiting for the latter units to arrive to carry out these tasks, which needed immediate attention. Especially if a Depts. so called Fast Team(SMOKE SCREEN= So We're NOT held LIABLE by OSHA), consists of only 2-3 men. Just another way of looking at it.

←

Maybe the point is that the IC should have enough resources to do all the jobs. Typically, it's quicker to get Mutual Aid than a FAS Team. For Mutual Aid you don't need to be FAST qualified (in some dept's you donty need to be qualified - period ). If you think you'll need more resources - then call them and don't bank on using FAST for regular jobs. Of course, you can't predict everything and sometimes things do go tits up. But, it often seems that you have this group of well trained FF's on the fire ground and the temptation is to use them for 'normal' fire ground operations.

I know this has been talked about previously, but maybe IC's should call MA to standby in the station or to the scene when they have a worker. Have these resouces in reserve and then be able to use them instead of the FAST.

Or - you coudl do away with FAST and use the on-deck system where everyone can perform the RIT role.

[Fireman488 57]

I would like to say we havent used the fast for fire suppression but that isnt the case . If you are special calling a fast unit to the scene, mutual aid, and you need more manpower, at least in this case it sure would be easier i think to call for another truck or engine and leave the fast for what it is.

i know the old saying put out the fire and all your troubles go away,but it is nice to know someone has your back at a call, and isnt 10 minutes away because you used the first team to vent the roof.

Cap,

Excellent topic.

Here's a little different twist on this subject that we experienced about four months ago.

We had a working house fire at approximately 4 AM. We immediately requested our designated mutual aid FAST unit and an additional mutual aid Engine Co.

The FAST unit arrived in a very timely fashion, but due to radio paging problems, the extra Engine Co. never arrived.

Once the fire had been knocked down, we felt confident in putting the FAST unit to work, for relief purposes, without replacing it.

Stay safe,

Syd Henry

Elmsford FD

[Monty 35]

Cap,

Excellent topic. 

Here's a little different twist on this subject that we experienced about four months ago.

We had a working house fire at approximately 4 AM.  We immediately requested our designated mutual aid FAST unit and an additional mutual aid Engine Co.

The FAST unit arrived in a very timely fashion, but due to radio paging problems, the extra Engine Co. never arrived.

Once the fire had been knocked down, we felt confident in putting the FAST unit to work, for relief purposes, without replacing it.

Stay safe,

Syd Henry

Elmsford FD

←

I think in some ways this highlights a common problem. There seems to be an idea that once the fire is knocked down, everything is going to be OK. In some ways this could be more dangerous (maybe not at this incident but in general). How about all the thermal stresses involved in the structure? Can it collapse - and trap FF's? How about tired FF's running on adrenaline that is now drying up? Can a FF colapse on the roof - in the basement? How about toxicity? CO? I probably don't wear my air long enough in to overhaul - I know others don't.

I believe someone here mentioned personal CO monitors they wear on their turnout - sounds like a very smart idea.

Just a few more thoughts that came up.

[FirNaTine 370]

I think in some ways this highlights a common problem. There seems to be an idea that once the fire is knocked down, everything is going to be OK. In some ways this could be more dangerous (maybe not at this incident but in general). How about all the thermal stresses involved in the structure? Can it collapse - and trap FF's? How about tired FF's running on adrenaline that is now drying up? Can a FF colapse on the roof - in the basement? How about toxicity? CO? I probably don't wear my air long enough in to overhaul - I know others don't.

I believe someone here mentioned personal CO monitors they wear on their turnout - sounds like a very smart idea.

Just a few more thoughts that came up.

←

You're right Monty. It all depends on the amount of structural damage that has occured or the location of the job within the house, such as the basement, where a large amount of CO can be found due to its lack of ventilation. However, once again the other side of the coin is, why not put the Fast Team to work overhauling and give those initial attack guys a blow, so they won't collapse on the roof or in another part of the structure requiring the Fast Team to be deployed. Guys should be rotated to prevent injuries from occuring. I can't tell you how many times I 've come out of a Bldg. exhausted, to have the IC ask me to do another task, only to see 2-3 guys standing fast and fresh, doing absolutely nothing. This is what really pisses me off, especially when the job consisted of only 1-2 rooms with partial structural damage, if that. Let's face it, the only reason the IC will not utilize them is from fear of the reprocussions he may face from OSHA and/or the Unions, for not following a Fast Team Policy. I'm a big advocate of the Fast Team Policy and as I've stated in previous posts, I can't believe it wasn't instituted years ago, when fires were an everyday occurence. However, I personally feel one negative aspect of this Policy is, now the 1st Alarm Assignment is taking an unnecessary beating, just to satisfy others from fear of being held liable. I love how pencil pushers(OSHA) dictate to us on how to do our jobs and you better do it their way or else! I'd love to get them in full PPE and have them fight a job on the top fl. of a 6 story walk up, with extension into the cockloft. Especially when your in a Career Dept. like mine, that doesn't comply with NFPA 1710! Anyway, enough of beaten this dead horse. Stay Safe Brothers.