Parade Mentality Gone Wild....

[Guest]

I know we're all sick and tired of hearing about different issues with parades, but I have a whole new, crazy one.

Recently, I heard of a member who didn't want to go to the large number of parades with his department because he'd rather spend the time training or doing other things. This department, in their bylaws, requires that all members attend all parades. I believe their is a fine, suspension, or expulsion for not attending parades.

According to what I have heard, this member was "punished" for his, in my opinion, progressive anti-traditon views by other members who threated to withold training from him.

In this day and age, should departments mandate volunteer firefighters to attend parades? Especially those departments who don't mandate or require training? And those departments that are hurting for manpower to begin with, or complaining there is too much time needed for training?

Is it just me, or is mandating members to attend parades crazy? Moreso, how can departments punish firefighters for not attending parades, especially when they are very active on the firematic side? I'm disgusted with this mentality, and I'm disgusted with those who bully the new people in the fire service into going with this mentality.

When and where will it end?

[cas2383 22]

Unfortunatly, if the bylaws are set the member must conform to them as part of membership. From day one when you sign up you should be given a set and know all the rules... If there is a larger issue on hand, which this case may just be, take steps toward changing them if the membership majority will go for it.

*Just an opinion that is all.

[Guest]

B30 in my department we have a similar situation. We had a member who spoke out against the parade mentality recently, and as a result he basically was trashed and blacklisted by other members. Some members even want to throw him out. I'm afraid to say something or back him up on this because I'll become an outcast too. I also heard guys talking about not taking him out on driver or any other training as retalliation for his thinkings. Not ONE other person has even thought or considered his views, everyone just gets all angry when anyone talks bad about parades. Like when he suggested something about all firefighters should have firefighter survival to the officers, he was called all kinds of names. And everyone else makes fun of this member because he wants to take every class possible.

It seems to me that more members are concerned with winning a trophy and going out to party then being good firefighters and honing their skills or they think they can handle both but we always know which activity wins out more

[AndyC3J 190]

That doesn't seem right, that they can "force" you to attend parades, when you'd rather be doing something more constructive, and potentially beneficial to the department and those it serves.

Around here, however, there are departments that are lucky if they get more than 3-4 to turn out, even on parade day. Not to change the subject, but wetdowns aren't much different. Very little variety in the lineup of who shows up, and there's no guarantee of the "usual suspects" at times, either.

I assume that most departments hold parades in higher regard than wetdowns, but making it "mandatory" and turning non-compliance into an outcast......I don't know.

[Guest]

if the member doesnt like the bylaws then he can leave the department nobody forces you to join or stay

parades are supposed to be fun and are part of being a volunteer why are there so many people trying to ruin it everyone trains enough as it is and sometimes too much is boring maybe this person needs to take a lesson from the older members who been around longer i think its good the member is being punished for trying to hurt the department

[FF402 133]

I applaud this member, whoever he is and whereever he is from, for standing up and trying to bring the department up from the old school level. The outdated mentality of the fire service when it comes to parades needs to be stopped. The problem lies in those ignorant to the fact they are there to provide the community with fire and rescue protection first and foremost, and have the highest quality firefighters and equipment possible arrive when they need them- at any hour of any day. I cannot believe the department....and the person responsible for it's manpowers behavior...the chief and his officers........actually allow a firefighter to be belittled because he wants to train. I can't even understand how outdated items like this remain in bylaws or what the reasoning behind enforcing it is?

I also applaud this board and its members, I am sure that many people are learning something they thought was right for so long isn't and that this is giving those who are in this for the right reasons a place to band togethther share ideas and get stronger so that we can be the best fire service.

[Guest Fonz1215]

When you dont have a lot of calls theres plenty of time to train and to march in parades, so its not a big deal plus if you dont have a lot of fires or calls then you dont need to train as much and you need to do something to bring up moral like parades

[Guest]

It seems if you are in a volunteer department, if you go try to improve things or go against tradition you are ran out of the department. I think that is why the mentality stays the way it is. Where I vollie it is a popularity contest and all the officers are just complacent as to not piss off the old timers and in turn the newer members who learn from the old timers. You don't need any sort of formal leadership training incident command or fire servce qualifications to be officer in my deparment, it just needs to be "your turn" and you need to be popular enough to get votes. That is why I think so much of this mentality is prevalent around here....because you have immature, careless, unqualified, and ignorant officers who are afraid to fight for their men because their popularity might be affected or are puppets of the old timers. It frightens me that this still goes on, yet I see members popping up on this board that give me hope that they prevail in the long run against all thats wrong.

[Guest]

What is the justification for parades being mandatory?

[GFD70 4]

When you dont have a lot of calls theres plenty of time to train and to march in parades, so its not a big deal plus if you dont have a lot of fires or calls then you dont need to train as much and you need to do something to bring up moral like parades

parades are supposed to be fun and are part of being a volunteer why are there so many people trying to ruin it everyone trains enough as it is and sometimes too much is boring maybe this person needs to take a lesson from the older members who been around longer i think its good the member is being punished for trying to hurt the department

I can't belive you would think that you can have too much training. You really need to rethink why you joined the fire service. Alot of firefighters were killed or severly injured because they were in a situation that they were not properly trained to handle. Parades are great if your into it but they don't make you any better as a firefighter. Even if you don't go on alot of runs, you need to be prepared for when you do get called. Also, your morale should come from the service you provide your taxpayers, not how many trophies are in your display case.

Edited July 29, 2006 by GFD538

[Jason762 2]

When you dont have a lot of calls theres plenty of time to train and to march in parades, so its not a big deal plus if you dont have a lot of fires or calls then you dont need to train as much and you need to do something to bring up moral like parades

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Fonz,

Please tell me you are kidding...That could be one of the most ignorant statements I've read in a long time. That mentality is one of the reasons why 100+ FF's die every year. If you're joining a FD to attend parades then you should just stay home. Its pretty sad when there are people who call themselves firefighters, but they've been to more parades than fires. If your dept. is slow then that is even more of a reason to train. Some day, maybe not today or tomorrow, you will have a fire, and if you're not properly trained, you're going to get hurt or killed. This whole mentality that people like Fonz and ZABT6 are protraying is wrong and those who buy into it should do us all a favor and get out of the fire service right now. The fire service has no use for people like you!

[TRUCK6018 50]

parades are supposed to be fun and are part of being a volunteer why are there so many people trying to ruin it  everyone trains enough as it is and sometimes too much is boring maybe this person needs to take a lesson from the older members who been around longer  i think its good the member is being punished for trying to hurt the department

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If part of being a "volunteer" is marching in parades, then join the lions club! Being a volunteer firefighter is fighting fires, period. In order to do so, you must train, period. There is no such thing as training too much. If you think you train too much, you will get caught with your pants down.

It sounds to me this member is trying to improve the department, not hurt it. If a departments first priority is parades, the department will hurt itself. This is probably a set of bylaws that were written in the 50's or 60's. News flash: The times have changed.

While I'm all for department pride, I'd rather take pride in improving my deparments ISO rating than winning a dust collecting trophy. There's no point in trophies if your not going to answer the calls efficiently.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against parades. I'm against department that put parades before the task at hand, protecting the communty. Protecting the community is not acting like a bunch of clowns, hanging off the sides of fire trucks gooned up which a trophy in hand. That IMO is how departments get a bad name and ruined.

[Guest Fonz1215]

Obviously you haven't been to a parade because if you have youd see that youre in the minority. I didnt join to go to parades but its a big part of my departments activities and rules and therefore I support it. Going to parades I get to know other people from other departments and that helps when fighting fires. Thats why its in the rules of my department. Im not saying you shouldnt train but there are other things besides training. Nobody in my department wants to go to the firehouse and all we do is train and stuff there needs to some fun stuff to do as well and the community loves and demands parades so we will piss them off if we dont march

[GFD70 4]

Obviously you haven't been to a parade because if you have youd see that youre in the minority. I didnt join to go to parades but its a big part of my departments activities and therefore I support it. Going to parades I get to know other people from other departments and that helps when fighting fires.  Thats why its in the rules of my department. Im not saying you shouldnt train but there are other things besides training. Nobody in my department wants to go to the firehouse and all we do is train and stuff there needs to some fun stuff to do as well and the community loves and demands parades so we will piss them off if we dont march

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Why don't you hold a drill with several other departments this way you can "get to know other people" while at the same time you are training. I can honestly say that I have never been to a parade nor do I have any plans to. I have nothing against anyone who does, I just don't have any interest. As I said before if your pride comes from a trophy your in the wrong place. Oh and by the way, I think your taxpayers would rather know that you are training and providing them with the best possible level of fire protection than know that you won the best engine catagory at a parade.

[Guest]

what does it matter if we go to parades on our own time i dont see what the big deal is why cant we train and go to parades they are fun and usually the departments that win trophys are the best departments around and that makes guys proud look at some firehouses tropy cases

everyone should mind their own business and stop trying to ruin parades as someone in my department told me those who talk so badly about parades on here are just bitter because they lost one or dont get to go if you went to parades you would feel differently the departments with dirty engines and messy hose packs show they dont care about their equipment and if you cant march in step then how can you work together thats why armies march

GOING TO PARADES IS IN THE RULES IF YOU DONT WANT TO GO THEN YOU SHOULD BE THROWN OUT

[Guest]

I forgot to ask before...how can I resolve this situation? I live in the community I volunteer in, and I want to see it have the best fire protection. But I know if I speak up and come to the aid of the member I mentioned before, that I too will be ridiculed and forced out of the department. I too was told that I couldn't go to a Firefighter Survival class because it interefered with a parade, but didn't speak up because it is in the rules about parades, and in my department they supercede everything, especially our own. I don't see a way out of this and dont know where to turn for help

[Remember585 815]

what does it matter if we go to parades on our own time i dont see what the big deal is why cant we train and go to parades they are fun and usually the departments that win trophys are the best departments around and that makes guys proud look at some firehouses tropy cases

I disagree partner.

I belong to what I believe is one of the better Departments in our area. We spend more time training (Oh no!) then going to stupid parades. We sometimes win something, other times don't. Does that make us less of an FD?

We by no means are the best, but we sure as hell try. We attend parades usually knowing we don't have a shot against some Departments, but we do go so we can show off how proud we are to be "us."

You sir, are a little off....start a competition of firematic skills and see how all your parade winners fair.... from what I see some (not all) would stumble over thier own feet.

[IzzyEng4 427]

In my company if you are issued a Class A uniform, you are required to attend 3 parades a year which are in order New Haven's St. Patrick's Day Parade, Memorial Day Parade in our city and the Connecticut State Firefighters Convention parade. If you do not atten with out being excused from our 2nd Lieutenant and Drill Master, then you are fined. If the company decideds to attend other parades, then those who don't attend do get a fine for those. Many members go away for Memorial Day weekend and that's not a problem as long as you tell the parade committee, also work relatedt issues, family commitments, ect.

Our company does not let parades interfer with our training at all nort do we drill for parades often, maybe a marching refresher on a Sunday morningearly in the season. Parades are for fund and enjoyment in our company and many members march or ride on the trucks. There are some companies that overdue it but that is because what I am used to. Having to march in three parades is not bad.

If a member misses all three parades unexcused, two consecutive yeas in a row, then thier Class A uniform is pulled from thier posession and fines are levied. We simply state, you don'w want to make the committment to march, then don't. If a uniform is needed for an event, then then unifom committee keeps it at the firehouse and will issue it out on a need basis.

[348 4]

this is perhaps the most ludicrious thread i have read. just last week, someone, and i cannot recall who, stated that the threads were going off topic from training, experiences ,ect(which i agree). fines for missing parades? not training for a chance of going to a parade? i have nothing against parades but you have got to be kidding if you think for one second that training constantly is a bad thing. remember, we are supposed to members of professional organizations.

[Guest tfd193]

I almost fell off my chair after seeing Fonz's first post....since you don't go to alot of fires you don't have to train as much?!?....what...if anything, you should train more!! Since you are not going to as many fires, you will lack experiance which is a key part of training.

[mstrang1 213]

if the member doesnt like the bylaws then he can leave the department nobody forces you to join or stay

parades are supposed to be fun and are part of being a volunteer why are there so many people trying to ruin it  everyone trains enough as it is and sometimes too much is boring maybe this person needs to take a lesson from the older members who been around longer  i think its good the member is being punished for trying to hurt the department

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These two lines are probably some of the most inane thoughts I have read. I think that those "older members" are hurting the dept. by potentially sending untrained, unskilled and/or ill equipt firefighters to a fire or other emergency in nice, shiny, Mother'd up diamond plate-covered engines.

This member is probably the one that cares the most about the true aspect of the Dept. Shame on this Dept. for punishing someone for encouraging training. This goes against the basic tenets of firefighting. Every new firefighter, career or volunteer, as far as I know, is told on the first day of the Academy or FFI, that this is the first day of training that will last your entire career.

[BIGRED1 71]

Does this company's bylaws also require all members attend every drill and every meeting? Are they REQUIRED to be in peak physical condision? or are those areas kinda wishy washy but the "You are required to be at all parades" by-law section very straight forward. i really would have to quit this department if they really don't care about their own men and are more worried about attendence at a parade. unless you are giving away Grant money to the company with the highest % of memebership present i really don't see why they have to be required.

[Amato122 0]

Whoever this is that is being criticized and ridiculed for his views on parades should not only quit his department, but should move out of that particular fire district. Who would want to be a homeowner in a community where the local volunteer fire department valued parade prep and attendance over training. I am an ex-member of a dept. in Westchester and I had a blast at many parades but c'mon this is the 21st century. If guys want to get together on their own time to clean the chrome bells and diamond plate and all that nonsense, thats fine, but a drill night or matinence night should never be used for parade prep.

[TRUCK6018 50]

what does it matter if we go to parades on our own time i dont see what the big deal is why cant we train and go to parades they are fun and usually the departments that win trophys are the best departments around and that makes guys proud look at some firehouses tropy cases

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When you are at a parade you are on your own time? That must mean you wear your street clothes, yes? I didn't think so.

When you are at a parade you are on your department's time. If you are wearing your department uniform you are representing your department. The chief of department is at that point responsible for your well being, even if he/she's not there! If you do something stupid while at a parade, he will be the one to answer questions. If the town burns down while you were winning that trophy, he will be the one to answer questions. Let me tell you, it flows down hill! It will be difficult to answer to the taxpayers why the proper fire protection wasn't provided for because of your fun.

As a former chief, I've seen these things happen. As we progress into the 21st century they will contiue to happen. Fire departments have been sued because of slow response times. One that comes to mind is a New England fire department getting sued because they were slow to respond and there was excessive fire damage to the house. The arrival time was less than ten minutes from the time of alarm.

[SteveOFD 176]

The ByLaws of the Company I belong to (like other Company's in the Department) require new members to purchase a uniform witin 90 days of acceptance into the Company. A reason for expulsion is "...failure to procure a uniform...".

I enjoy, and spent twenty years, marching in parades until I was told that the uniform I got out of the dry cleaners four hours before the start of a parade was so "wrinkled" I would not be allowed to march. Since that day I have not marched in a single parade. My feeling is when a Department marches in more parades than it has training drills provided for its members, the priorities are not where they need to be.

[Guest seanc]

i think it sould be manditory that you attend a parade but your cheif shouldnt punish you if you have a prior commitment but just not wanting to go isnt a good excuse if signedup to be a fireman then parades are a part of being a fireman

[X615 0]

this obsession with parades is absurd. when i became a firefighter i joined to do firefighting, not march around like some majorette. guys that are enthusiastic about going & enjoy it that's fine for them but it's not for everybody and today with the high cost of living, increasing calls for service, declining memberships, huge time commitments for training & recertification all while balancing that with family & work responsibilities depts should be a little more aware what time demands they make from their members and be happy to get what they get. after taking who knows how many hours a week for legitimate firefighting then to demand they attend parades too is ridiculous. when you force guys to attend non-firefighting activities against their will or take more time away from them than they can really give it stops being fun & interesting & becomes too much like work & you're going to lose them. would you rather have the guy that shows up to clean machines for parades & attends parades or would you rather have the guy that takes what courses he can, shows up to any call at 3am regardless what it is and regularly gets your ladder truck or ambulance out the door???? members are assets & need to be actively managed as an assest not a possession.

[grumpyff 1,159]

what does it matter if we go to parades on our own time i dont see what the big deal is why cant we train and go to parades they are fun and usually the departments that win trophys are the best departments around and that makes guys proud look at some firehouses tropy cases

everyone should mind their own business and stop trying to ruin parades as someone in my department  told me those who talk so badly about parades on here are just bitter because they lost one or dont get to go  if you went to parades you would feel differently  the departments with dirty engines and messy hose packs show they dont care about their equipment and if you cant march in step then how can you work together thats why armies march.

Thats real nice, having a nice shiny piece of apparatus, but does it work? I know in my old dept, one company was so into winning the Inspection trophy, that half the equipment on their apparatus looked great, but physically did not work. Yeah the crosslays looked great, but if you needed to pull it, it was impossible. Same for other equipment such as gated wye/valves/ etc all painted real nice, but half the coupling no longer spun due to paint sticking thing up, missing bearings etc. So by your thought , this company that won the trophy for 5 years straight should have been the best at firefighting..but alot of the times we would go alarms shaking our heads at some of the nonsense that occurred. Things like only 100' of 2 1/2 hose connected to a gate wye. The company inquestion would stretch this line, then attach an appartment pack to it. Their justification was that they could then stretch 2 lines if needed. They would never touch the 300' crosslay. This nonsense was even pulled at an oil burner malfunction, that was in an enclosed shed on the side of a building where the apparatus in question was less than 100' away. Once they even 'conveinently' did not have a driver for an alarm that occurred several days before our Inspection, but two(2) of their drivers managed to respond to the scene in their personal vehicles. My company on the other hand set up our apparatus to work. It may have looked like sh!T, and been dirty, but when push came to shove, it got the job done effectively. Tools were accesible, and hosee lines were easy to stretch. FDNY/LAFD did not get their reputations as progressive fire departments by winning trophies marching in parades.

If you want to march in parades that is fine, but this is the fire service, and that is what comes first. The Fire Service...training and safety are most important, not parades and trophies. I would rather have pride in having a well trained department that can safely and effectively deal with any problem thrown at us, than be part of a department that places more value on shiny trucks, and marching in a straight line down the road. I don't mind parades, it is a good way to relax, and make some friends, but I'm sure that if God forbid something bad happens, i.e. a Line Of Duty Death, the first thing the insurance companies and OSHA/PESH are not going to look at are your parade trophies. Grow Up or Get Out!

Edited July 30, 2006 by grumpyff

[JBE 328]

I can't believe what I am seeing here. Having the best looking rigs and getting the best marks for marching makes for a better department?? That is the biggest bunch of BS I have ever heard. Training is boring?? That training just may save someones life, maybe even your own.

My hat is off to this poor guy who has his prioirties in the right place. It's too bad the ignorant and the dinosaurs in his department are giving him such a hard time.

Parades should not be mandatory for any member unless your department is the one hosting it.

[TRUCK6018 50]

Thats real nice, having a nice shiny piece of apparatus, but does it work?

Let's take it one further. What justification is there to take an specialty piece of equiptment, ie ladder truck or rescue, numerous towns away and tie it up for a parade? I can understand if the department wants to take it to a local (mutual aid department's) parade where a stand by crew can be established and the rig can respond in a timely fastion. I'm talking about taking a ladder or rescue from say the sound shore region and sending it to a parade in the Hudson River region.