From: More affordable volunteer housing in Rockland

[GFD70 4]

Without trying to ssound like I'm starting a career vs volunteer debate, I have to ask at what point do you admit that you need to hire career firefighters. I think that building affordable housing for volunteer's won't solve any problems.

First of all, lets face it the number of volunteers is rapidlly decreasing not just in this area but throughout the country. Many towns and villages in Rockland and Westchester have become bedroom communities where many residents do not work where they live. Try convincing someone who commutes five or six days a week to NYC to give up some of their spare time to volunteer either for a fire department or volunteer ambulance corps.

Secondly, is there a program set up to monitor who would be offered the affordable housing? Will it be available to everyone or only those who make a certain number of calls and drills. What will be done to ensure that you don't get people joining just for the affordable housing? How will you ensure that once someone moves into the affordable housing that they will stay active 5 or 10 years down the road?

Finally, I wonder how many paid firefighters could be hired for the amount that is going to be spent on this project. I realize that hiring career firefighters may not be the best solution in every case due to financial issues among other things but I think it is something that should be strongly considered. I think that many departments, for what ever reason, refuse to admit that they have major issues when it comes to manpower. In my opinion, if you have to be retoned for a call even once you have a problem. Ultimately, you have to ask yourselves if you are truely providing the best possible service to your residents.

Again I don't mean to offend anyone, I just wanted to give my opinion.

[res6cue 67]

I don't want to keep repeating myself, but I will point out in response to the point of volunteers decreasing, our dept in the past 6 months has gotten around 20 new members. That's a pretty significant number in my opinion. I hate to sound egocentric, but when it comes right down to it, I'm really only concerned with my own district. I can't be worried about what the guys in the next town over are doing, or the guys on the Island. Yes, certainly their actions can have a profound affect on me both directly and indirectly, but what am I to do about it, really? Go beat them over the head with a stick? Push my own views on them? Lecture them about how it should be done? According to who, exactly? Each dept should be judged on its own merit, especially if it comes down to an issue of "do we need to think about disbanding this vollunteer company and putting a paid dept in their place?" It's a tough spot to be in, so the best thing you can do is make sure your own house is in tip top shape. I'd love to answer for the entire fire service...hell, I'd love to have all the answers to the issues and problems, but I do not. So I only can answer for myself.

Finally, I wonder how many paid firefighters could be hired for the amount that is going to be spent on this project. I realize that hiring career firefighters may not be the best solution in every case due to financial issues among other things but I think it is something that should be strongly considered.

The trouble is, you're not seeing the bigger picture and you may not understand how these incentives work. This project is NOT funded by the taxpayers, it is done through private partnerships. Also, it's a one time or low frequency occurence. Putting a paid system in place is an ongoing occurence. You have to pay salaries, benefits, pensions and all the other associated costs. If you pay $35,000 a year salary to 10 firefighters, you're already paying out $350,000 of taxpayer's money right off the bat. It's not as simple as just going out and saying "hmm, for $35,000 we could hire 1 guy" because you're going to need a significant minimum number of paid firefighters to comply with OSHA and NFPA regulations. 2 in, 2 out rule, minimum staffing, maximum time allowed on duty per shift, etc. All of this year after year. Honestly, no matter how many incentives you give to volunteers, it's still not going to come anywhere NEAR the price of a career dept as far as tax burden.

I think that many departments, for what ever reason, refuse to admit that they have major issues when it comes to manpower. In my opinion, if you have to be retoned for a call even once you have a problem. Ultimately, you have to ask yourselves if you are truely providing the best possible service to your residents.

Sure, that could happen, I agree. Some depts are scraping the bottom of the barrel. But in an all volunteer county like Rockland, I think the option of consolidating districts should be considered before something as drastic as putting a paid system into place is done. As far as retoning, that may or may not be an accurate indication of a dept's ability to get manpower out. Our dept, for example, has 44-Control automatically retone for working structure fires. It doesn't matter if nearly every truck is already on the road, it's just policy. Again, I can't worry about the next town over unless they call us or we have to call them. That's when it starts to affect me.

Edited June 29, 2006 by res6cue

[res6cue 67]

Sorry GFD, I added a bunch more after I posted, didn't realize you were in the thread reading it.

[firecapt32 282]

this is a fun debate guys but i got graduation tomorrow morning. then im headed to alaska if this debate is still g ing on when i get back I will surely weigh in again.

[Guest]

I've asked this question before and never got a good answer. At what point do you stop being considered a VOLUNTEER ?  Housing, pensions, what's next free food ?

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In my opnion if your fire district has the money now to put on paid staff, SHAME on you for not doing so. Lets think about the customers/tax payers first. They deserve the best service. Now I know not every dept has the money to do so. For those that do and you know who you are shame on you! Face it the day of the volunteer is coming to a end. Let prepare for the future now.

[mfc2257 464]

In my opnion if your fire district has the money now to put on paid staff, SHAME on you for not doing so. Lets think about the customers/tax payers first. They deserve the best service. Now I know not every dept has the money to do so. For those that do and you know who you are shame on you! Face it the day of the volunteer is coming to a end. Let prepare for the future now. 

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So.... Shame on everyone... Huh... Well I'm not anti career or overly pro volunteer... But if the days of the volunteer are over, why does Ossining consistantly turn out 5 engines two trucks and a rescue with over 50 FF's at the average fire when the average career department runs a 2-3 man rig at best. Even the smaller Westchester volly departments get out with 4 or more on a rig.

This career vs vollie garbage has to stop.... When it's time to switch to a career service, it'll be completely clear. Bravo to Peekskill, Mohegan, etc. where th combination of vollies and career FF's is working. Bravo to Yonkers, Hardsdale, Whiteplains, etc. who have awesome career services... BUT at the very same time, BRAVO to Yorktown, Bedford Hills, Pound Ridge, MILLWOOD, Croton, Purchase, Somers, Irvington, Dobbs Ferry, etc etc etc etc etc who are getting it done......... Straight up Volunteer...

I look forward to seeing the next Westchester department that adds a career supplement for the RIGHT reasons. I also look forward to seeing the next career department in Westchester that moves to a 4 man engine and a 5 man truck. I don't look forward to ever seeing a department bullied into stepping aside for career staffing if they are getting the job done.

For the departments that cannot provide fire protection to their community, sure maybe it's time to start exploring adding career FF's to supplement the vollies.

But shame on no one when there is a dedicated set of vollies that are getting the job done. Go to Pennsylvania, Virginina, Maryland, Upstate NY, Ohio, and say shame on you. I'd love to see the response you get.

Edited July 24, 2006 by mfc2257

[Guest]

So.... Shame on everyone... Huh... Well I'm not anti career or overly pro volunteer... But if the days of the volunteer are over, why does Ossining consistantly turn out 5 engines two trucks and a rescue with over 50 FF's at the average fire when the average career department runs a 2-3 man rig at best.  Even the smaller Westchester volly departments get out with 4 or more on a rig.

This career vs vollie garbage has to stop.... When it's time to switch to a career service, it'll be completely clear.  Bravo to Peekskill, Mohegan, etc. where th combination of vollies and career FF's is working.  Bravo to Yonkers, Hardsdale, Whiteplains, etc. who have awesome career services... BUT at the very same time, BRAVO to Yorktown, Bedford Hills, Pound Ridge, MILLWOOD, Croton, Purchase, Somers, Irvington, Dobbs Ferry, etc etc etc etc etc who are getting it done......... Straight up Volunteer... 

I look forward to seeing the next Westchester department that adds a career supplement for the RIGHT reasons.  I also look forward to seeing the next career department in Westchester that moves to a 4 man engine and a 5 man truck.  I don't look forward to ever seeing a department bullied into stepping aside for career staffing if they are getting the job done.

For the departments that cannot provide fire protection to their community, sure maybe it's time to start exploring adding career FF's to supplement the vollies.

But shame on no one when there is a dedicated set of vollies that are getting the job done.  Go to Pennsylvania, Virginina, Maryland, Upstate NY, Ohio, and say shame on you.  I'd love to see the response you get.

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Some very good points! I agree with most of them...all up to the PA,VA,MD,UPSTATE thing...I would have no problem hearing thier response...

If those state citys or towns have the money for some career guys or a full staff why not have them in place? Lets look at the Upstate Ny thing... There are plenty of counties that have the money for an county wide plan for protection. Why isn't it in place? The same reason for most places PRIDE AND TRADITION..The killer of the fire service. I agree with you that if a volunteer fire dept is getting the job done, then hats off to them. To the depts that know there is a problem and have the funds to make a change, and are doing nothing about it,...

Then SHAME on them!

[firecapt32 282]

Hey here's an idea-- the communities that have afforadable housing---give the senior citizen's a shot at them----or better yet veterens. Im sure firefighters that are middle aged can affored to live in the communities lets give the seniors and war vets what they deserve.

just my thoughts

[res6cue 67]

What's sad is how some of you have come into this thread with ridiculous and sometimes flat out ignorant statements when clearly you have no clue what you're talking about. Obviously some people either can't read or are just not interested in the facts, choosing their own views and opinions instead. The only "shame on you" should be towards the career guys throwing their all too typical crap around about how the volunteers need to be replaced or supplemented with paid firefighters. You REALLY ought to get your heads out of your collective asses and take a good, hard look around the entire NATION, not just the NYC metro area. The volunteer fire service is flourishing in many places, so to suggest otherwise is ludicrous. The point of these programs is because no, some middle aged guys CAN'T afford to live in the communities anymore. Are you guys really that out of touch with how high the taxes are in the area? Maybe you just don't understand that fact, or Rockland County in particular. Our county is 100% volunteer fire service, there is no mix and match like some surrounding counties (including Westchester).

Once again, for the thickheaded:

THESE PROGRAMS IN ROCKLAND COUNTY ARE NOT PAID FOR BY THE FIRE DISTRICTS OR THE TAXPAYERS.

That is all, continue trashing the recruitment and retention programs or volunteers in general if you must, but you really are showing your ignorant sides when you do. I'm almost sorry I made this thread in an attempt to point out some good things around my neck of the woods. Instead of positive response to it, basically all we've had is negativity or cynicism, and sadly most of that has come from career guys (although I suppose that's no big surprise, which is even SADDER). Nice "brotherhood" we have.

(PS - This isn't an all out bash on career guys, I have many friends who are paid. This is only directed towards the guys with the big mouths.)

Edited July 24, 2006 by res6cue