Can Mutual Aid Companies Break Away To Respond Home?

[Guest]

Mutual Aid is a problem b/c every Tom, Dick, and Harry in Westchester County uses it. I mean honestly, I feel like BHFD TL 57 is a tower ladder for about 15 municipalities. Every time you have an alarm you can't rely on another time. you should have sufficient manpower and apparatus in your own town to fight an avg. fire. If you don't, then your town has got some issues to discuss.

[hudson144 150]

huzz- if you read my post it has alot about mutual aid and if i remember correctly 9/11 was mutual aid. AND IN MY POST IT IS A VERY STRONG POINT ABOUT MINDING YOUR OWN STORE BEFORE GOING TO A MUTUAL AID CALL. Its not whining its stating some facts.

[helicopper 1,050]

If a department needs to have an engine breakaway from a mutual aid assignment to handle an assignment in their own area, then they shouldn't be sending an engine on a mutual aid assignment in the first place.

←

AMEN!

[huzzie59 75]

Hudson144

I don't dis-agree with the points you make, but the question was if a responding appartatus can break away from a responce to handle another call.

A simple question.

I think my answer was simple. It was only my opinion though. I'm no smarter than the next guy.

I don't think it needed to blow up into a long drawn out discussion on mutual aid.

Another topic should be started.

[helicopper 1,050]

I honestly believe, that it's the working Deputy Chief's right to call back his men and equipment that's out on M/A if their not, and I mean not engaged in assisting a neighboring Dept. at the scene of an emergency and he needs them for a true emergency within their own juristiction!

It's then up to the Dept. who originally requested the M/A to get someone else in to cover.

My main concern is my fellow firefighters and the civilians and their property, I took an oath to protect and who pay my SALARY. NOT providing Fire Protection for another Dept. who doesn't protect their citizens with adequate Fire Protection 24/7.

Not that we do, which is even more of a reason to take a flexible approach to the M/A policy and always be prepared to return to your juristiction if need be.

I see no difference in this, than a Battalion Chief in FDNY putting a FAST Truck to work and requesting another to replace them, which happens quite often.

I guess  though I must have a Career FF's. attitude and outlook on the Fire Service in general. I look at it as a Proffesion and not a hobby where sometimes I get to go and play in other communities with my new equipment anf forget about my own, because we've been slow lately and need some work.

←

Some observations on the above comments...

It is not the right of the "working Deputy Chief" in City A to call his resources back from City B. He has no idea what the conditions are at the incident resulting in the call for mutual aid nor does he have information on what the relocated resource may be doing later in the operation - maybe it isn't being used RIGHT NOW but it is that IC's resource until it is released.

The agency requiring mutual aid has enough to do without worrying about filling assignments repeatedly because you have to go back to your City. This could result in multiple mutual aid requests for the same incident - unnecessary, duplicative and potentially dangerous.

If your sole concern is your own municipality and it's citizenry, why are you in the Mutual Aid plan at all? Reading between the lines, I see much more at work here than the application of mutual aid and the use of resources. Does your agency use mutual aid? How would you like your FAST/RIT team to leave you during an incident?

Mutual aid is not flexible - the IC is responsible for mutual aid resources and that is spelled out in the law. If he or she chooses to release a resource for another assignment, that's fine but it MUST be his decision and not the decision of someone else, somewhere else or the apparatus themselves. Your attention shouldn't be focused elsewhere!

Your FDNY example reinforces the point about NOT doing what you suggest. If the FAST team gets put to work and another FAST team is requested, they are maintaining an on-site capability that is, in Westchester's case often accomplished with mutual aid. If that FDNY chief turned around and tried to assign the FAST team to work and it wasn't there, there would be a delay in those operations and a setback to the whole operation.

Finally, this has nothing to do with career or volunteer. That statement has no place in this discussion. The examples you're citing are all career departments with inadequate management and staffing so you shouldn't cast stones from your glass firehouse!

[mfc2257 464]

I feel like BHFD TL 57 is a tower ladder for about 15 municipalities.

←

Well... They kind of are.... Think of it this way

Aside from running thier RIT operations off the Tower....

They are most likely first due in the following municipalities:

Bedford Village, Katonah, Pound Ridge, most of South Salem, most of Goldens Bridge, parts of Armonk, parts of Vista... All departments without an aerial device who don't necessarily need to go purchase one either.

They are second due to:

Mt. Kisco, Somers, Banksville, parts of Yorktown, parts of Croton Falls (I think),

They are third due to parts of Chappaqua, parts of Millwood, and even parts of Croton possibly (it's not far across 35 down to 129 and into Croton's eastern box)

SO if you get a big job (remember there are big houses as well as commercial property in those juristictions) chances are there might be three trucks there. Chances are Bedford Hills is going to be one of them, especially if other departments in between have already been tapped for Engines or Tankers.

[Monty 35]

Maybe we should take all of the County taxes used for Fire Protection and create a county-wide department with assets strategically placed through out the county.

Works elsewhere ....

[sr71 1]

ok in my towm we dont have a "fast team" i dont even know what it is. can someone from a dept that has one tell me what it is and its purpose please?

and ive never heard of a fast team in farfield county.

[Guest ksneubec]

ok in my towm we dont have a "fast team" i dont even know what it is. can someone from a dept that has one tell me what it is and its purpose please?

and ive never heard of a fast team in farfield county.

←

In CT they are known as RIT- Rapid Intervention Teams.

[Jason762 2]

ok in my towm we dont have a "fast team" i dont even know what it is. can someone from a dept that has one tell me what it is and its purpose please?

and ive never heard of a fast team in farfield county.

←

FAST (Firefighter Assistance and Search Team) aka RIT (Rapid Intervention Team) is the concept of having additional manpower (the actual # of addtnl FF's varies) above and beyond the initial assignment, standing by at fire scenes, haz-mats, technical rescues, etc., whose sole purpose is to rescue and/or assist any FF who becomes lost, trapped, entangled, or otherwise needs assistance. The two acronyms are interchangeable depending on where you are from. A RIT team should be dispatched anytime there are members working in a potential IDLH (Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health) atmosphere.

[sr71 1]

In CT they are known as RIT- Rapid Intervention Teams.

←

oo thanks we have a Rit team there members of each company for thse mayday situations

i just ddnt know what fast ment

[CPFD91206 0]

The funny thing about mutual aid is.. "you have to be in it.... to get it"!

If you are dispatched for a M/A run you go. UNLESS your department is currently operating at something or you have a manpower shortage BECAUSE OF THE CURRENT INCIDENT, not normal day to day issues then the "Officer" advises dispatch of that and SHOULD tell dispatch "please BACKFILL our assignment"! If an officer is concerned that while they are covering a M/A assignment something will take place in his/her own jurisdiction then have all members put on standby in your home quarters. If its a career department then get authorization to call in some members and put another piece in service. This all has to be weighed out by the officer, Career, as to wether or not the incoming crews will arrive before the crisis is mitigated VS. have another unit BACKFILL until its cleared.

We will always be faced with that "what if" scenario, so ya know what, plan around it ........ is it that hard ? Obviously it must be.

Why is it that the FF"s are posting the gripes on this BS and not the CHIEFS ...obviously they are one step ahead of the mongers and are sound with the decisions that they make. If your not happy with the way the mutual aid is operating in your department file a union grieveance on behalf of the citizens and bring it to the city council you'll see a change I am sure! Better yet Invite the Chief of Department to your quarters over coffee and express your concerns on how "you" think it should be run.

Wheres the "Kid from Brooklyn" when ya need him????

No more ranting from me on this issue, I think the horse was beat far enough in the ground prior to the thread starting.

[FirNaTine 370]

Some observations on the above comments...

It is not the right of the "working Deputy Chief" in City A to call his resources back from City B.  He has no idea what the conditions are at the incident resulting in the call for mutual aid nor does he have information on what the relocated resource may be doing later in the operation - maybe it isn't being used RIGHT NOW but it is that IC's resource until it is released.

The agency requiring mutual aid has enough to do without worrying about filling assignments repeatedly because you have to go back to your City.  This could result in multiple mutual aid requests for the same incident - unnecessary, duplicative and potentially dangerous.

If your sole concern is your own municipality and it's citizenry, why are you in the Mutual Aid plan at all?  Reading between the lines, I see much more at work here than the application of mutual aid and the use of resources.   Does your agency use mutual aid?  How would you like your FAST/RIT team to leave you during an incident?

Mutual aid is not flexible - the IC is responsible for mutual aid resources and that is spelled out in the law.  If he or she chooses to release a resource for another assignment, that's fine but it MUST be his decision and not the decision of someone else, somewhere else or the apparatus themselves.  Your attention shouldn't be focused elsewhere!

Your FDNY example reinforces the point about NOT doing what you suggest.  If the FAST team gets put to work and another FAST team is requested, they are maintaining an on-site capability that is, in Westchester's case often accomplished with mutual aid.  If that FDNY chief turned around and tried to assign the FAST team to work and it wasn't there, there would be a delay in those operations and a setback to the whole operation. 

Finally, this has nothing to do with career or volunteer.  That statement has no place in this discussion.  The examples you're citing are all career departments with inadequate management and staffing so you shouldn't cast stones from your glass firehouse!

←

You know what's funny or should I say sad. With all that rhetoric you posted as your so called observations to my comments, I have seen the exact opposite done quite a few times for every statement you've made in my 23yrs. of firefighting. And you know what? Nothing was done about it and nobody was reprimanded including the IC in charge of an incident or the neighboring towns Deputy Chief or Commissioners. I don't recall anybody being arrested and interrogated by the Mutual Aid Police. Unless of course it was you, being that your a Police Officer as you have mentioned you are. Maybe you can enlighten all of us as to what these Laws of M/A are and the reprocussions someone will face if they're broken. I know I'm interested, because I've never seen nor heard of them in my career. While you're gathering up those M/A Policy Laws, look to see if there's any infraction there with regards to the issue of M/A abuse. Maybe we can incarcerate all our powers to be, including some Politicians. P.S. I wish I worked in a glass firehouse. It would probably be cheaper and quicker to repair than the railroad flats we're working in!

Edited July 20, 2006 by TPWS

[CAM502 6]

Maybe we should take all of the County taxes used for Fire Protection and create a county-wide department with assets strategically placed through out the county.

Works elsewhere .... 

←

Wasn't this idea called Westchester 2000...or something like that???

[helicopper 1,050]

You know what's funny or should I say sad. With all that rhetoric you posted as your so called observations to my comments, I have seen the exact opposite done quite a few times for every statement you've made in my 23yrs. of firefighting. And you know what? Nothing was done about it and nobody was reprimanded including the IC in charge of an incident or the neighboring towns Deputy Chief or Commissioners. I don't recall anybody being arrested and interrogated by the Mutual Aid Police. Unless of course it was you, being that your a Police Officer as you have mentioned you are. Maybe you can enlighten all of us as to what these Laws of M/A are and the reprocussions someone will face if they're broken. I know I'm interested, because I've never seen nor heard of them in my career. While you're gathering up those M/A Policy Laws, look to see if there's any infraction there with regards to the issue of M/A abuse. Maybe we can incarcerate all our powers to be, including some Politicians.  P.S. I wish I worked in a glass firehouse. It would probably be cheaper and quicker to repair than the railroad flats we're working in!

←

Well, we agree that elected officials do a pitiful job of adequately protecting their communities by nickel and diming emergency services at every turn.

It's not a matter of the mutual aid police or laws governing the use of mutual aid. It's a matter of not hamstringing an IC with unncecessary resource changes in the midst of an incident. My point, and the point of several others who posted here, is that a resource assigned to an incident is under the control of the IC at that incident and no longer his hometown. Leaving without the concurrence of the IC is dangerous and makes his job harder.

If you have a working job in your town and need to return, and your Chief communicates with the mutual aid IC to get you released, that changes things quite a bit. Units should not have that discretion without the involvement of Chief officers and the IC in particular.

Resource management and coordination is one of the mandates of NIMS - a mandate that is not going away anytime soon and makes compliance necessary for future $$$. With that in mind, maybe we should all get on the same page and coordinate our efforts better.

We've all seen the "opposite" done at one time or another - that doesn't make it the "right thing".