Can Mutual Aid Companies Break Away To Respond Home?

[FirNaTine 370]

.......it was mentioned that they "broke away "and responded to their own community for an alarm?? I always thought that when you were the F.A.S.T. you were there for the safety of the members of the department that called you?? and when you went on mutual aid you stayed till you were released by the department that had the fire??

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I don't want people to think I'm opening a can of worms here, but where does it state a M/A Co. can't break away to respond to an emergency in their own juristiction, whether their responding to the scene as a fast team or to standby in a station. I've been on M/A standby in Yonkers on 2 occassions and returned to MT.Vernon because we were needed at the initial call or a subsequent job. In my opinion, you should protect your own first, whether it be firefighters or the civilians that pay for protection. Is this same Fast Team suppose to pass a true emergency in their own town while enroute on M/A and just radio it in to Dispatch? What say you?

[Guest]

No they can't. That could be the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Once dispatched to a call you must remain on that call until you clear. Now if you're not needed you can tell Incident Command about what's gonig on back home so they may release you, but you can't just drive away from a strucutre fire b/c something is happening back home!

[X615 0]

i was brought up & taught that you deal with the incident you are currently commited to and only when released by command or the incident is closed should you be leaving. if it were open for m/a depts to leave for whatever reasons to return "home" there is no way you could actually depend on m/a or expect any kind of firm commitment from then for as long as it is needed leading to a breakdown of m/a & having to call in companies from farther & farther away resulting in lost time & endangering lives. it is the responsibility of the m/a company to insure they have station coverage while they are gone and if needed, rely on m/a to cover them. that's the intent of mutual aid, otherwise it just becomes a big freelancing cluster ^$. but that's just my opinion.

[helicopper 1,050]

If you're on a mutual aid assignment you're on an assignment. You can't just leave because you want to go to another call. If you can't cover calls in your own municipality, maybe you shouldn't be a FAST team for someone else!

As for leaving a "stand-by" assignment, you still have to check with the IC - you're being counted as a resource for the requesting agency.

Canceling yourself will eventually cause an injury or worse because you're not there as requested and assigned.

My two cents...

[FirNaTine 370]

No they can't. That could be the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Once dispatched to a call you must remain on that call until you clear. Now if you're not needed you can tell Incident Command about what's gonig on back home so they may release you, but you can't just drive away from a strucutre fire b/c something is happening back home!

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I'll tell you what's really dumb and ignorant is not having enough men and equipment to respond and suppress a single alarm fire including having a FAST TEAM standing bye, which 99.9% of the time is not needed. M/A is suppose to be used for the BIG ONE, not your everyday bread and butter job, which eventually becomes a big BUFF Convention! I'll take everyone's advice though, and be sure to tell the people who are standing on their front lawn watching their house burn in my juristiction, that I can't help them because I have to respond to a neighboring town for standby. I'll shout it over the rigs PA system as we pass them bye. I'm sure that's what they want to hear. M/A is an agreement between municipalities, not a LAW. There's nothing written in stone that governs this policy. You're not going to be charged with abandonment as if your performing CPR on a patient and you decide to leave for another call. Let's all wake up and get our priorities straight fellows, before someone needlessly gets seriously injured or dies! Like I, along with many of my collegues in the Fire Service in West.Cnty. always state, the M/A system is a debacle and abused too often, to supplement another Depts. inadequate staffing and equipment levels! And don't say you can't pick up and leave a scene or station to respond back to your own juristiction. It was done to our Dept. 2 yrs ago by neighboring m/a depts. operating at a General Alarm and also by my Dept. standing bye in a neighboring city's station on at least 2 occassions that I know of. Our own come first in my opinion, especially if your not engaged in an aggressive offensive operation and it's nothing but another surround and drown operation!

Edited July 19, 2006 by TPWS

[mfc2257 464]

I'll tell you what's really dumb and ignorant is not having enough men and equipment to respond and suppress a single alarm fire including having a FAST TEAM standing bye, which 99.9% of the time is not needed. M/A is suppose to be used for the BIG ONE, not your everyday bread and butter job, which eventually becomes a big BUFF Convention! I'll take everyone's advice though, and be sure to tell the people who are standing on their front lawn watching their house burn in my juristiction, that I can't help them because I have to respond to a neighboring town for standby. I'll shout it over the rigs PA system as we pass them bye.  I'm sure that's what they want to hear. M/A is an agreement between municipalities, not a LAW. There's nothing written in stone that governs this policy. You're not going to be charged with abandonment as if your performing CPR on a patient and you decide to leave for another call. Let's all wake up and get our priorities straight fellows, before someone needlessly gets seriously injured or dies! Like I, along with many of my collegues in the Fire Service in West.Cnty. always state, the M/A system is a debacle and abused too often, to supplement another Depts. inadequate staffing and equipment levels! And don't say you can't pick up and leave a scene or station to respond back to your own juristiction. It was done to our Dept. 2 yrs ago by neighboring m/a depts. operating at a General Alarm and also by my Dept. standing bye in a neighboring city's station on at least 2 occassions that I know of. Our own come first in my opinion, especially if your not engaged in an aggressive offensive operation and it's nothing but another surround and drown operation!

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WOW..... I can't believe you actually posted that..... Just because someone else left your job doesn't mean that it's ok for you to do it to someone else. When your tones are dropped for a M/A response, you are part of that fire command and the scope of their needs until released. Even if there isn't chapter and verse to say so (which I'm sure there is something in the county M/A charter that says that there is) it's common respect to stay until you're not needed. THEN even after you aren't needed any more it's the right thing to ask if the department would like your assistance back in quarters to finish getting back in service.

WOW... WOW... WOW.....

Edited July 19, 2006 by mfc2257

[res6cue 67]

Are you seriously arguing the position that a FAST team from a mutual aid company should be able to leave the scene to respond to another job AT THEIR OWN DISCRETION?

If so, that is the most irresponsible thing I've ever heard. I really don't care if you do think most mutual aid called is never really needed. While you may have a point, in the specific case of a FAST team (which seems to be your main example) it's NEVER acceptable for them to stand down until the IC sees fit, and generally they're one of the last units to pack up and for good reason. We tend to let our guard down during overhaul, and that's when guys can get hurt.

Most FAST teams I've been a part of or have called have consisted of only 1 truck and not more than 5 or 6 guys. If your dept is so strapped that they can't cover a fire in their own district with the rest of the apparatus and manpower they have, you have MUCH bigger issues you should be concerned with. I can tell you firsthand that our dept and our bordering dept are the 2 busiest depts in Rockland, and we constantly call each other for MA and wind up getting alarms of our own at the same time. Sometimes legitimate calls at that. We manage just fine to get it done, and if need be then we call another dept for MA, but we never stand down from a FAST team assignment to respond.

[CPFD91206 0]

BACK FILLING

Is this a new term or procedure?

[JBE 328]

BACK FILLING

Is this a new term or procedure?

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Example of Backfilling: Patterson relocates to Brewster while Brewster is tied up at a job. Patterson gets something while relocated to Brewster and Kent is relocated to fill Brewsters house. We do this all the time to keep a sufficient amount of coverage.

[mfc2257 464]

Example of Backfilling: Patterson relocates to Brewster while Brewster is tied up at a job. Patterson gets something while relocated to Brewster and Kent is relocated to fill Brewsters house.  We do this all the time to keep a sufficient amount of coverage.

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Back filling doesn't appear to be the hot button here. Just packing up and leaving a "scene or station" because you want to, are sick of being there, or for another call isn't right under any scenerio.

If you are on the scene, you are committed to the scene.

If you are filling someone's quarters, and there a county wide accepted system for backfilling, and the department for which you are standing by for participates in such a system then fine you can leave to take the call so long as a next due unit is alerted immeadiatly to cover your assignement for the standby.

Overall though, outside of large citys, I wouldn't favor a system of backfilling. It's easy to move Truck 16 across Central Park to fill Truck 4's quarters. It's the same department. If Brewster is relying on Patterson to fill their quarters, I wouldn't want to worry about Patterson leaving to take calls, locking the building, waiting for Kent to arrive, make sure someone can unlock the building.... etc. I would hope that if Patterson has a rig in Brewster, that the remainder of Patterson's department is aware of that and diligent about covering calls in their box. If they get a job that requires additional resources, activate the mutual aid system again.

Just my 2 cents....

Edited July 19, 2006 by mfc2257

[IzzyEng4 427]

The only way a company can break from an assignment is if they are in the direct path of another alarm or they area re assigned before they go enroute and another company is assigned to the initial call. But the re-assigment has to be warrented. If there is a stucture fire next to the firehouse per say, well that's a no brainer.

The rule of thumb is once you are enroute or arrive at a scene to are committed to the initial alarm. The only way you can return back to your town for another assignment is when you are released by the IC to return home. Then you can get re assigned.

It is up to the dispatcher to make a critical decision who what when and when to send a unit. It is not up to the chiefs, officers or driver of the apparatus. Most of these response plan should be in your running rules.

[jfmuller 23]

I don't want people to think I'm opening a can of worms here, but where does it state a M/A Co. can't break away to respond to an emergency in their own juristiction, whether their responding to the scene as a fast team or to standby in a station. I've been on M/A standby in Yonkers on 2 occassions and returned to MT.Vernon because we were needed at the initial call or a subsequent job. In my opinion, you should protect your own first, whether it be firefighters or the civilians that pay for protection. Is this same Fast Team suppose to pass a true emergency in their own town while enroute on M/A and just radio it in to Dispatch? What say you?

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Maybe I'm missing something, when requested for mutual aid, once called out responding you are now under the control of the requesting IC. Therefore you cannot self dispatch, or release yourself without requesting this from the IC of the incident.

That said, someone always trys to argue an exception to the rule or some obscure situation like Terrorists taken over a building Energized with bombs strapped to their chests demanding that all pink bunnies be released.

As for passing an accident/fire, well always an exception to the rule, I'd treat this as common sense, evaluate the situation, you wouldn't stop for a car overheating or property damage accident, although seeing a person trapped in a burning vehicle, or severe accident, then you call out of service and deal with the situation. It is much like blowing an engine enroute, sometimes things are out of your control, use risk/benefit evaluations to determine what to do.

Leaving a committed incident is just plain dumb, we all know that just because your home company is dispatched to a structure fire, doesn't always mean that it is a working fire. How would you feel for pulling your equipment to respond to a fire that turns out to be food on the stove?

If do have a Job and the IC knows, provided things are under control, (fires out and there is enough resources on hand to cover your mutual aid assignment) the IC may let you break, but until he does your under his control.

[CAM502 6]

TPWS,

Man I can't believe you really want to bring up that Mt Vernon Ave job again...lol. All that BS aside, If I send you out on M/A and we need you back, we have to request that you be released by whomever you went to cover. I know if someone else is in qtrs covering us, I expect them to be there ready to go when I gotta send them on other runs. Remember when we had two jobs at once a few months ago.

If you are en route to anything and you come across another alarm you gotta make a judgement call man. If you are on the way to New Ro and you come across a job then stop and go to work. Just make sure to radio it in so we can fill it out and tell 60 that we're not sending the 1&1 anymore. If you find a wire down, radio Fire Alarm tell them where it is and proceed on your way.

If you are out on M/A and they say sorry we can't release you right now then we will call 60 and get more M/A.

Edited July 19, 2006 by CAM502

[CAM502 6]

Forgot to mention, I do agree that M/A is way to overused. And I do agree that every department should be able to handle a Bread and Butter job. All I can say is: Gotta Love Politcs!!!

[FirNaTine 370]

TPWS,

Man I can't believe you really want to bring up that Mt Vernon Ave job again...lol.   All that BS aside, If I send you out on M/A and we need you back, we have to request that you be released by whomever you went to cover.  I know if someone else is in qtrs covering us, I expect them to be there ready to go when I gotta send them on other runs.  Remember when we had two jobs at once a few months ago. 

If you are en route to anything and you come across another alarm you gotta make a judgement call man.  If you are on the way to New Ro and you come across a job then stop and go to work.  Just make sure to radio it in so we can fill it out and tell 60 that we're not sending the 1&1 anymore.    If you find a wire down, radio Fire Alarm tell them where it is and proceed on your way. 

If you are out on M/A and they say sorry we can't release you right now then we will call 60 and get more M/A.

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Thanks CAM, for clarifying such a simple Question. I had a feeling this was a no brainer. However, I honestly believe, that it's the working Deputy Chief's right to call back his men and equipment that's out on M/A if their not, and I mean not engaged in assisting a neighboring Dept. at the scene of an emergency and he needs them for a true emergency within their own juristiction! We've already done it and its been done to us and you know what? The hosting M/A Depts. understood and nobody complained. It's then up to the Dept. who originally requested the M/A to get someone else in to cover. My main concern is my fellow firefighters and the civilians and their property, I took an oath to protect and who pay my SALARY. NOT providing Fire Protection for another Dept. who doesn't protect their citizens with adequate Fire Protection 24/7. Not that we do, which is even more of a reason to take a flexible approach to the M/A policy and always be prepared to return to your juristiction if need be. We shouldn't even be going on M/A with our inadequate staffing levels and lack of equipment, but that's a whole other issue and forum. I see no difference in this, than a Battalion Chief in FDNY putting a FAST Truck to work and requesting another to replace them, which happens quite often. I guess though I must have a Career FF's. attitude and outlook on the Fire Service in general. I look at it as a Proffesion and not a hobby where sometimes I get to go and play in other communities with my new equipment anf forget about my own, because we've been slow lately and need some work. Hey Attila from Pelham FD, you we're absolutely right with your posts a few months back. WOW!

[huzzie59 75]

If a department needs to have an engine breakaway from a mutual aid assignment to handle an assignment in their own area, then they shouldn't be sending an engine on a mutual aid assignment in the first place.

[RichC 0]

Let's see, we have from your two posts:

1.another surround and drown,

2.buff convention

3.go and play in other communities

4.profession vs hobby line we all know.

And you started off by saying I don't want people to think I am opening a can of worms.

I will agree with your statement on the attitude and outlook though.

If you have issues with the use of M/A in your city of employment and it sounds like you do and justifiably so, why not confine it to that instead of the openly anti statements thrown in.

[Guest]

Too many individual posts to quote all of them, but to speak on a few points:

You should first protect your own district, agreed. Hence mutual aid. If most of your units are operating, a primary concern should be reserving units or having units available to handle any other alarms - enter mutual aid.

Regarding FAST teams not being needed "99.9%" of the time, well all I know is I'd hate being that 0.01% that needs it, and not having it because someone didn't feel like bothering a neighboring dept. or my assigned FAST decided to leave.

Departments have standing mutual aid protocols for a reason: to be used. Better to have units nearby or standing by and then thank them and turn them around than to be in desperate need and not have them there. As far as mutual aid incidents becoming "buff conventions" that's simply a matter of discipline. Nassau County often has fires with nearly entire battalions operating (7-10 departments) and as long as everyone knows their place, problems are avoided.

Every department SHOULD be able to handle a bread & butter job, but reality is some can't. If it was your department, I'm sure you'd want someone helping you, too.

[Guest ksneubec]

I guess  though I must have a Career FF's. attitude and outlook on the Fire Service in general. I look at it as a Proffesion and not a hobby where sometimes I get to go and play in other communities with my new equipment anf forget about my own, because we've been slow lately and need some work.

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For starters I'll look past the slander at the volunteer firefighters. I could easily hurl an insult back at you, but that wouldn't be very professional, would it?

Second, I find it ironic that you talk about how professional you are yet you can't spell the word correctly.

Edited July 19, 2006 by ksneubec

[FirNaTine 370]

If a department needs to have an engine breakaway from a mutual aid assignment to handle an assignment in their own area, then they shouldn't be sending an engine on a mutual aid assignment in the first place.

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Couldn't agree with you more Huzzie! That in a nut shell is exactly my point and should stand true for both Career Depts. and Volunteer Depts. But it doesn't and you know why? Because Depts. over the years have constantly rolled the dice and have to their good fortune and that of the citizens they protect, have come up winners the majority of times. On the rare occassions where luck wasn't on their side, it was all kept hush, hush, swept under the rug and forgotten about. That's not an opinion, that's the truth! Maybe the title of this forum should have been "Should Depts. provide M/A if they're not adequately staffed and equiped to do so?" Oh well, sorry guys if I offended anyone. Those really weren't my intentions. I honestly thought I was just asking an innocent question. I didn't mean to get anybody's bowels in an uproar. Stay Safe and Cool!

Edited July 19, 2006 by TPWS

[hudson144 150]

FAST TEAMS- SHOULD NOT BE "TEAMS OF TWO" STANDING THERE WITH THEIR THUMBS STUCK WHERE THE SUN DOESN'T SHINE WITH NO TOOLS AND EQUIPMENT, IN OTHER WORDS A TRUE FAST TEAM SHOULD BE A TEAM OF 6+ WITH ALL THE RECOMMENDED FIRE,SAFETY,SEARCH TOOLS AVAILABLE. SOME DEPTS CALL IT A FAST TEAM JUST TO GET BY, I KNOW THAT THIS COULD BE IN ANOTHER FORUM BUT IT MOST LIKELY WOULD GET THE BOOT BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW WHAT DEPARTMENTS THE FINGERS WILL BE POINTING AT. BE SAFE!

[mfc2257 464]

Given TPWS's indication that this forum should have been about departments not providing mutual aid if they aren't prepared to still protect thier own first due, then I totally agree and I'll delete my littany of quoted replies to his prior posts which you may have seen in this space a moment ago.

Edited July 19, 2006 by mfc2257

[FirNaTine 370]

For starters I'll look past the slander at the volunteer firefighters. I could easily hurl an insult back at you, but that wouldn't be very professional, would it?

Second, I find it ironic that you talk about how professional you are yet you can't spell the word correctly.

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You know what, your right. Professional is only spelled with one f and not two. It's one of those words I always mispell unfortunately. Please forgive me, I hope my spelling hasn't taken away from the true intent of this forum. I do know one thing for sure though, at least I'll admit when I'm wrong like a true PROFFESIONAL!

[Remember585 815]

You know what, your right. Professional is only spelled with one f and not two. It's one of those words I always mispell unfortunately. Please forgive me, I hope my spelling hasn't taken away from the true intent of this forum. I do know one thing for sure though, at least I'll admit when I'm wrong like a true PROFFESIONAL!

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You're forgiven...spelling is the least of all our worries!

If you send a rig into another district for coverage, you stay there and let those left in your town to cover. If you don't have the resources to do this, then stay home. PERIOD!

I agree that our home town is our #1 priority, so if we can't send something to cover our own, we should not send anything out - period. Politics will always, ALWAYS rule us. That and pride will ruin things forever. I recall a few times where departments, including my own, have responded Mutual Aid when we shouldn't have. Why? Because too many people are afraid to admit they can't help out......STUPID STUPID STUPID!

Bottom line, for me anyway, got the manpower and apparatus to send, go for it. If you don't - stay home!

[FirNaTine 370]

You're forgiven...spelling is the least of all our worries!

If you send a rig into another district for coverage, you stay there and let those left in your town to cover.  If you don't have the resources to do this, then stay home.  PERIOD!

I agree that our home town is our #1 priority, so if we can't send something to cover our own, we should not send anything out - period.  Politics will always, ALWAYS rule us.  That and pride will ruin things forever.  I recall a few times where departments, including my own, have responded Mutual Aid when we shouldn't have.  Why?  Because too many people are afraid to admit they can't help out......STUPID STUPID STUPID!

Bottom line, for me anyway, got the manpower and apparatus to send, go for it.  If you don't - stay home!

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Thanks Remember585. In all honesty, that's what I was trying to get across. I guess things got a little out of hand though, especially when I began getting attacked. Ones only recourse is to go on the offensive and come out swinging though. Geeze, now I know how ISRAEL feels!

[hudson144 150]

a prime example for being somewhere we shouldn't be is exactly how I felt on 9/11. For some depts that were relocated into the buroughs of ny city I will probably piss some people off by saying this but I don't care. On 9/11 westchester county was sent into the northern bronx to cover. Now I know that many depts do not have enough manpower to cover their own districts from 8am-5 pm and if they do have some manpower it may be some senior members or younger inexperienced jr members. i know first hand a dept that I am associated with had no right going down there. To give you an example I know that the many of the depts are not even set up for stand pipe use not to mention that many depts then didn't even have the right connections to establish a water supply if needed because the threads on the hydrants are different from most water sources in westhester co. this may vary from dept-dept but for many it is true. Part of 9/11 also was that in the early stages of 9/11 each community in westchester co. could have been hit from some type of terrorism. We all wanted to help but sometimes we have to take a step back and say "should we commit ourselves to something that we might not handle"? please by no means this is not bashing anyone or dept that went flying down there but honestly sit back and ask yourselves if you had a job on the 6th floor of an occupied multiple dwelling did you have the right people with you to take care of a situation any of your members are not familiar with? be safe!

Edited July 19, 2006 by hudson144

[Jason762 2]

FAST TEAMS- SHOULD NOT BE "TEAMS OF TWO" STANDING THERE WITH THEIR THUMBS STUCK WHERE THE SUN DOESN'T SHINE WITH NO TOOLS AND EQUIPMENT, IN OTHER WORDS A TRUE FAST TEAM SHOULD BE A TEAM OF 6+ WITH ALL THE RECOMMENDED FIRE,SAFETY,SEARCH TOOLS AVAILABLE. SOME DEPTS CALL IT A FAST TEAM JUST TO GET BY, I KNOW THAT THIS COULD BE IN ANOTHER FORUM BUT IT MOST LIKELY WOULD GET THE BOOT BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW WHAT DEPARTMENTS THE FINGERS WILL BE POINTING AT. BE SAFE!

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You left out one thing...the RIT team in addition to having all their tools ready, should be doing their own size-up of the building, looking for and removing hazards like window bars, blocked egresses, etc., throwing ladders. Basically being a proactive RIT team...

[firecapt32 282]

hmmm I do agree that some departments are abusing mutual aid. it was never intended to be a source of manpower. when you are called to be a F.A.S.T. , that should be the main objective-- firefighter lives depend on you being there--- there for you are committed to that department just aas if you belonged to them. You are under their control.You cannot break off nor should you unless relieved by the I.C.

The abuse of the mutual aid system has long been the subject of "conversation" amoung the firefighters for a long time. I remember being assigned to responf to a mutual aid call-- on arrival found 4 career firefighters sitting on the side walk having lunch-watching the fire.

I was politely informed that they were not on duty-- nor were they being recalled to duty. The department wasent going to pay overtime when that could call mutual aid. Thats abuse!!!

sorry to ramble but there are things to concider , bbut you cannot leave a mutual aid call unless you are relieved by the IC.

pretty good subject I think lets hear more there has to be more opions out there.

[hudson144 150]

jason, i left out alot more than that but it would only cause a problem,some fast teams are nothing but a "SMOKE SCREEN" just to cover the mandatory saying that a SMOKE SCREEN I mean a fast team is ready to go!!!

[huzzie59 75]

How did this topic get to 9/11 and 'abuse of mutual aid"?

Can't everyone just stay with the original question and topic?

What a bunch of whine bags!

Don't repsond on a mutial aid request if you cannot provide the necessary coverage for your own responce area.

In most cases it is probably requesting a backfill of your department or a stand-by of your neighboring department in their quarters.