Fire Service Myths

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I'm often amazed at how much misinformation or mythis there are in the fire service. Some that still get passed along that were around before many of us were even born (even firecapt). So I thought we could all share a few that we may know and then discuss what the factual answers or situations were.

Myth #1:

When your low air alarm goes off you have 5 minutes of air left in your cylinder.

Myth #2:

There is a patient in the ambulance so my lights have to be on.

Myth #3:

My lights are on so my siren has to be on.

Myth #4:

We can no longer call them SOP's they must be SOG's because a lawyer won a lawsuit against a fire deparment.

Myth #5:

We don't want to use smooth bore nozzles because some of these guys will waste most of their water before putting the fire out. Plus with some of our low pressure hydrants you need more water to use them.

There are just a few of my own. If you don't want to know the actuals don't read below this line______________________________________

1. With SCOTT air paks the low air alarm signifies you have 25% of your air volume left. There is no time factor, you could make it last 1 min or 10 depending on all the factors.

2. Nope..clearly stated in a DOH policy, no insurance company requires that, never has and in fact wouldn't they like it better for all motorist they cover if you don't confuse everyone else and cause rebound accidents.

3. Another myth. NYS V and T states that if you utillize any of the exemptions granted when operating as an emergency vehicle (speed, disregard flow of traffic signs etc) then you must use both unless you are a police vehicle. Still doesn't mean at 3 am you have to wail on it. Woop Woop works just as well.

4. I can't remember where I read the article but an attorney that wrote could not find any instance through his research where this statue was made or even attempted to be litigated in court.

[TR54 239]

Myth # 6 :

If you wear a Hood , you cant feel your ears burn and wont know when to get out.

_________

6. Always protect your skin. FULL protective envelope !

Edited July 19, 2006 by TR54

[RWC130 594]

Myth # 7:

The more BLUE LIGHTS I have on my car the faster I will get on scene

and if they don't pull over I will just run them off the road.

Really unprofessional!!!

Volunteer Firefighters in New York a BLUE LIGHT is a courtesy light!

Edited July 19, 2006 by RWC130

[turk182 37]

# 8

The more you post on EMTBravo the smarter you sound

#8

The more you listen(read) the smarter you will be

[IzzyEng4 427]

Myth # 1 - just came about with the old 500 psi = 5 minutes ratio set yars ago. Was more of a way to say hey your running out, time to get out safely.

Myth #2 - How it used to be until we started prioritizing patients liek they did in early field triage and the introduction of EMT's and paramedics in the field. It used to be "scoop and run" to the hospital and get their quickly.

Myth # 3 - Motor vehicle laws per stat. In CT lights are on, siren has to be on. If you just have your lights on and no siren, you are liable in an accident and the department will lose in litigation. Thank you insurance companies.

Myth # 4 - Procedures verus Guidelines. In the legal sense a guidline is something you can change while in opration while a procedure is a set operational rule. Now in firefighting a procedure is how we operate and we can vary it to meet our needs. Thank you lawyers for messing this one up.

Myth # 5 - Smooth bores = GPM which puts out fire, fog or ajustable = more staying power. However, you need almost 90 lbs of pressure at the tip to have an adjustable work versus 50 lbs on a smooth bore. Both have a place an time, especially in high-rise aptartments using a tand pipe, you chould use a smooth bore. Remember Meridian Plaza in Philly?

That is what I can remember.

[Guest]

RWC130, i do agree with your point of view except for one thing. Blue lights are no longer courtesy lights. But good point none the less, people rarely pull over for them in my town

[ex-commish 490]

RWC130, i do agree with your point of view except for one thing. Blue lights are no longer courtesy lights. But good point none the less, people rarely pull over for them in my town

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When was it established that a blue light was no longer a courtesy light?

[IzzyEng4 427]

Myth 9 - Mrs O'Leary's cow started the Great Chicago Fire (she was a closet smoker lol)

[Jason762 2]

Myth # 5 - Smooth bores = GPM which puts out fire, fog or ajustable = more staying power. 

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Can you clarify what you mean by fog/adjustable nozzles have more "staying power"? Thanks

[CAM502 6]

When was it established that a blue light was no longer a courtesy light?

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Think he meant that nobody cares about them anymore.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

You are right Izzy, fog nozzle you have to have 100 psi tip pressure, SB 50, my myth was referring to some comments made in my presence in 2 different departments. Volume volume. A 150 GPM is 150 GPM no matter what nozzle it comes out if that is the flow you want. Just one has less nozzle reaction then the other. Big advantage is you can get greater flows at lesser pressures with a SB.

Being I'm from NY and this is a Westchester based site, I speak from a NY standpoint in regard to emergency vehicle operaton.

As far as the "I have a patient my lights have to be on." The scoop and run days have been gone for decades yet I have still heard this over the past 10 years. In fact I tried to explain this politely to a driver of an ambulance agency about 2 years ago and he got an attitude about it. What was shocking was that a well respected EMS provider and employee (hint hint) is a member (or at least he was at that time) and this was a "policy" of that agency.

Also whomever said that its a myth that you can get smarter by listening or reading. I have to disagree with you, as long as what you are reading is factual. Knowledge is power. Knowing what your doing and what it can and/or will effect of change is paramount and the keystone of becoming and being a good fire officer.

[Guest ksneubec]

Myth #10- "The Golden Hour"

Patients have the greatest chance of survical if they are brought to the O.R. within the first hour. The clock starts at the moment of the accident and ends when trauma surgery begings.

While it makes sense, there has never been a study to prove or disprove the golden hour theory. Maybe 45 min. is the cut off, maybe its 2 hours???

[IzzyEng4 427]

TO JASON: I'm speaking of what in New Haven County have been taught. In other words with a fog nozzle, if you are pulling memebrs out of a building and going defensive, a fog is a beeter "cover nozzle" due to is versable stream selection, giveing the firefighter extra coverage. Sorry about that I should have been more clear.

TO ALS: I know you are big with the WCFD's and thought to through in a llittel Souther New England stuff in to. Again I should have been clearer. As for the Ambulance lights & patient, I'm suprised!!!!! It was still that for that long. Man am I a youngin!!! (joking around of course my friend)

How many myths are out there??? I still say Mrs O'Leary's cow was a closet smoker!!! LOL

I can't think of any more myths though to add. This is a good topic.

[WAS967 97]

Knowledge is power.

Why does this remind me of the ending of a GI Joe Cartoon? :D

[JBE 328]

Actually that was the start of the School House Rock shorts.

"Knowing is half the battle"

[antiquefirelt 994]

with a fog nozzle, if you  are pulling memebrs out of a building and going defensive, a fog is a beeter "cover nozzle"  due to is versable  stream selection, giveing the firefighter extra coverage.  Sorry about that I should have been more clear.

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This is a huge myth! Why would you want to flow fog into a structure to cover a retreat? The cool air sucking in around the nozzle gives you a false sense of security. As was stated previously: GPM, GPM, GPM. Nothing else stops advancing fire. In fact a fog nozzle created a negative pressure vortex directly in its center which actually can draw fire toward the nozzle. (seen clearly in LPG training). Fog is better for hydraulic vents, and "capturing" 3-D fires, but thats about it. Oh yeah, they're better at eating up budgets too!

[ny10570 745]

Myth #10- "The Golden Hour"

Patients have the greatest chance of survical if they are brought to the O.R. within the first hour. The clock starts at the moment of the accident and ends when trauma surgery begings.

While it makes sense, there has never been a study to prove or disprove the golden hour theory. Maybe 45 min. is the cut off, maybe its 2 hours???

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You're right, one hour is not the cut off for survivablitiy, but there is research to back it up. Look up Dr. Adams Cowley. I believe he is the one who actually created the concept for the Army. After looking at many of the traumas comming out of combat, they found that with treatment from the field medics an hour after injury there was a dramatic drop off in survivablilty.

[IzzyEng4 427]

This is a huge myth! Why would you want to flow fog into a structure to cover a retreat? The cool air sucking in around the nozzle gives you a false sense of security. As was stated previously: GPM, GPM, GPM. Nothing else stops advancing fire. In fact a fog nozzle created a negative pressure vortex directly in its center which actually can draw fire toward the nozzle. (seen clearly in LPG training). Fog is better for hydraulic vents, and "capturing" 3-D fires, but thats about it. Oh yeah, they're better at eating up budgets too!

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Not full fog, I'm not gonna make a lobster out of the guys!!! Had that done once. With the adjustable stream, one way I was taught was go between straight stream to keep the fire in check and if you needed to protect a ceiling where it is starting to roll, hit it wirh a straight stream and adjusting it back and forth to a narrow fog (no more that a "click") and back. It's a European technique and only used in extrem situations. Also doing squits work too (opening and closing the nozzle in a short repeated succession) Again you don't want to lobster a guy. I wasn;t talking about full fog either, that would upset the thermal balance too much obviously.

[Guest]

The nozzle stuff!

A fog pattern from a cobination nozzle lacks GPM, REACH, & PENETRATION. So, if fire was rolling down a hallway or into a room and chasing members out in a hurry any fog pattern wide or narrow would have little impact. Fog patterns provide very little protection during interior operation becaus they lack GPM reach & penetration. The only thing you are doing is converting water to steam at or around 3000-4000 times because of ceiling temperatures, this equals burned members, look at the FD report from NJ where a member lost his life when he fell through the floor and the RIT used a fog pattern to protect him, they proved that they burned him. Forget the text book 212 degrees @ 1700 times, how many fires are that cool at the ceiling?

If you can't reach the seat with adequate GPM and penetrate to cool the burning material then you are doing nothing. A straight or solid stream will push back the fire and generate less steam then a fog pattern, that is protection.

The inventors of the inderect and combination attacks never advocated using these patterns when firemen and occupants were inside.

Check out!

Little Drops of Water By Andy Fredrick in Fire Engineering as well as his videos.

David Fornell's book on fire streams.

Firenuggets.com for more articles on this topic and many more.

William Clark's Book on principles of firefighting.

And lastly know that Fog pattern firefighting was developed for ship board firefighting and tested by structral departments in the 40's and the insurance companies sponsored these tests and helped to push the FOG pattern type attacks because they felt it reduced water damage which is incorrect because they don't have reach, gpm & penetration power which means more water flowed before the fire is extinguished.

My 25 cents worth.

Be careful,

G

[Guest ksneubec]

You're right, one hour is not the cut off for survivablitiy, but there is research to back it up.  Look up Dr. Adams Cowley.  I believe he is the one who actually created the concept for the Army.  After looking at many of the traumas comming out of combat, they found that with treatment from the field medics an hour after injury there was a dramatic drop off in survivablilty.

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From what I was taught, and from what I could find by looking up Dr. Cowley, no one has ever done any kind of actual research on the subject- just observations. No double blind studies, etc. But good point and interesting Doc to look up.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

151, that was one of the best posts on nozzles I've seen in some time. I've read those articles you mentioned and they are well written and give great insight into what you also posted.

Some of what I read about on the thread about the fog for protection comes from the old saying I've heard of right to fight, left for life, when there was those whom thought fog was the answer for impending flashover which was quickly disproved. I live by and teach my students right to fight for all compartmentalized firefighting. Which reminds them which way the stream selector needs to be turned prior to entry. It still surprises me when I assist with drills or teach advanced firefighter courses how many firefighters still do not know which way to turn the selector when asked, or forget to even turn the selector, check the stream and bleed out the air prior to entering the structure or fire room.

[ny10570 745]

From what I was taught, and from what I could find by looking up Dr. Cowley, no one has ever done any kind of actual research on the subject- just observations. No double blind studies, etc. But good point and interesting Doc to look up.

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How would you propose to perform a controlled study on this type of situation?? Delay treatment to some people beyond an hour to see the result? The only way to study this is through observation. It is a goal to set for a treatment standard. Its not to say if you're only 10 minutes away from getting the pt to an OR and you have 30 min left you should take your time, or conversely that if you're more than an hour away you should give up and black tag the poor bastard. Its the same way they've established treatment timelines for cardiac arrests.

I'm sorry, I stand corrected, there is a way to perform a controlled study on shock and the golden hour...it requires dogs, and it was done in the 1950s and 1960s by Dr R Adams Cowley, originally on dogs. He basically took the dogs and and phlebotomized them. They were hooked up to blood pressure and cardiac monitors. THose whose blood was autotransfused within a one hour period would usually recover, hold their blood pressure and survive. Those who waited for more than an hour for the auto transfusion did not. They would begin to rally and restore thier BP as thier body's compensentary mechanisms took over. But thier vitals would eventually decline in spite of a later transfusion and die.

Edited July 21, 2006 by ny10570

[antiquefirelt 994]

Which reminds them which way the stream selector needs to be turned prior to entry.  It still surprises me when I assist with drills or teach advanced firefighter courses how many firefighters still do not know which way to turn the selector when asked, or forget to even turn the selector, check the stream and bleed out the air prior to entering the structure or fire room.

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Nozzle pattern selection: Right is RIGHT and Left for Lobster!!