Does The Chief Care About Their Safety?

[FF402 133]

"Does My Chief Or Driver Care About Our Safety?" That's what I'm wondering if these guys riding atop this rig last night were asking themeselves, while the rigs was going about 30 on Route 117 toward the Parade lineup. Surely, someone from this department has read the numerous topics about the danger of this on this forum, and still I see it happening again and again. I'm NOT looking to bash any specific department, I just think and hope this is a good method to get this nonsense to stop once and for all for us all. Leadership is influnential, and knowing what we do about this due to past incidents, how can it still happen repeatedly in 2006? Is no one else but me seeing this? Is not one of those members thinking "Gee, this is kind of dangerous, and makes us look like unprofessional yahoos, let me stand up and say something". If something was to happen to anyone on top of that rig, I hope the driver and chief could live with themselves.

I know I'm sick of the parade topics, but I hope this photo changes something.

[xchief2x 79]

This chief, the driver and the officer as well as all the members on the apparatus should get suspended, this is probably the dumbest thing I have seen in quite awhile and I hope I never see it again.

[Guest]

The real question should be, do the Commisioners, any of the 3 Chiefs, or any line officer realize what would happen if any of them fell off? On top of that this was on the way to the parade. Imagine what it was like when they left? Espically after they "won" that coveted trophy? Well, at least they were close to the hospital. This Department needs to wake up and CHANGE how they do things. Hey, by the way, didn't they not stop using there own Engines in the last few years to stop shuttling people at there own Parade?? I know they did, so why did they do that but not think of there own members the rest of the time?? Rent a Bus or even buy one. Parades are to honor the deceassed members I would sure hate to see them honoring one of there own, because of "we used to do it that way for 50 years it is not changing under my watch" mentality. The time to change is now. Also isnt this not the same Dept. from Lake George this year and last that had there picture posted up on a few websites doing the same thing ?? They all must be blind or no Members look at or care about this stuff.

[RESCUERABBITS 0]

Part of the problems is and have always been a lack of State mandated training on the part of Chief Officers. Liability issues need to be taught and addressed. The Officers with the mushroom syndromes need to be enlightened. The Fire Service seems to never learn until there is a lawsuit and even then its always going to happen to the other department. When common sense, maturity and professionalism are lacking the next step to address the issues with the Department's Insurance Company. Sometimes this is the best approach, money talks at times very loudly.

Safety and setting the example starts with ourselves.

Be Safe and act Professional.................not a hard concept.

[Guest]

As Rescue rabbits states Liability issues need to be taught but that should be by there respective districts, not the state, when you become a Chief, OSHA or PESH,and NFPA books should become your guide and you can also learn from Past Chiefs and Neighboring Chiefs. You can not shoot from the Hip or at least as little as possible atleast when it comes to this stuff. It is the above mentioned agencies that say we can not ride on Sides, Back and Hosebeds, all New apparatus comes with these screwed on the Back and in Jumpseats saying we should also be seated and belted in. So what is the story can they be above the standards?? or is it the not me syndrome?? We will probably never know hopefully they will get the point some day and toe the line with the rest of us that do follow the rules. Hey at least we did not see any beer cans in there hands.

[FF402 133]

I just got a very interesting PM from a (from the tone I would think a younger or immature) member of that department, calling me an explecitive, accused me of doing it myself (which I do not), and saying it doesn't matter because a trophy was won....and implying that it was going to continue to spite "everyone who is against them" on this issue.

WHY is this member, or probaly even members, getting so defensive???? Don't bother taking responsibilty for this error, and now I'm sure it's going to happen again. I'm not bashing this department, I just would feel guilty if something happened to one of these men and I saw it happen and didn't say anything.

The photo was taken of that department while they were in the public eye. They chose to take that action in the public eye, in front of so many who work and try to keep us all safe, so what makes me the bad one for posting it? Who cares what department it was, the fact is is that it happened. This department I'm sure is a great firefighting agency, and thats not whats being discussed, but their peers here are trying to tell them something. And just because you reconize the rig because it's familiar to you, not everyone will....and this is a probelm that goes on in many other departments as well.

As I said before, I hope this photo sparks change.

[Critic 0]

I think the PARADE JUDGES, along with the host departments, need to take a stand on this as well. If any unit is seen arriving at the parade with members riding on top or the back, then that department is disqualified from the parade.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

State mandated training? You can't fix dumb.

There are actions clearly defined in standards that must be followed by law and departments skirt them at the chief, commissioner and political level.

Let me ask this...besides the point that the picture is worth a thousands words...

Where are the same for those departments whose leadership or bean counters still do not give their members:

FIT TESTS

PHYSICALS

SELF RESCUE EQUIPMENT

It is no different then what we see in that picture. There are officers that sign off on permission slips saying that members are cleared to wear a respirator whom have never gotten a physical or even a proper one nor have been fit tested.

[Guest]

Whoever rides on the rig doesn't have to it is their choice we can do what we want. It is not as unsafe as you "experts" think it is. We deserved that trophy

screw you guys

[Guest]

The old guys tell me they did it when they were kids,and nobody has ever fallen off in that long time so that proves its not dangerous accidents happen and they will on top of the rig or inside They taught me and there around long enough to polish their trophies

[RESCUERABBITS 0]

Inches ahead for professionalish..............miles backward for being a

YA...............................HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

and if you don't know the difference you should not be in the fire service

Its not about anything more than knowing the difference between PROFESSIONISM and LACK OF IT.

[DOC22 1]

The old guys tell me they did it when they were kids,and nobody has ever fallen off in that long time so that proves its not dangerous accidents happen and they will on top of the rig or inside They taught me and there around long enough to polish their trophies

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Yeah, I did to BACK IN THE DAY, when there were not the number of incidents nor traffic on the roads. Back when apparatus didn't move at warp factor 9. When these vehicles had tailboards set up to ride on. This is like so many other lessons learned thru tragedy.Yes, you can stay lucky for a long time, but luck can run out anytime. As was stated previously, Nobody is passing judgment on anybody, just trying to protect YOU! Something you haven't figured out how to do for yourself.

[SteveOFD 176]

Whoever rides on the rig doesn't have to it is their choice we can do what we want.  It is not as unsafe as you "experts" think it is. We deserved that trophy

screw you guys

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I just did a database search of the forums membership. There are 8 members listed as affiliated with the FD in question. Five are Verified Members of which one is listed as an Assistant Chief and one as an Ex-Chief.

I think we need to hear from the "Brass" of this FD to see what their policies are rather than everyone trying to instill in this kid the Right Thing To Do. If it is policy problem within this FD then the kid would not know any better than what he has been taught.

[TRUCK6018 50]

it doesn't matter because a trophy was won

We deserved that trophy

First, I didn't know trophies were more important than safety. Second, is it possible the younger generation thinks that trophies are the primary function of fire departments??? Who ever thinks this is the case, go join the Lions Club or something. A fire department is business first.

First and formost is safety. Second is answering alarms. Third are social functions. If you're not going to understand the safety aspect, you might as well forget about the rest.

Folks, get your heads out of the sand. If you're going to continue to spite "everyone who is against them" on this issue, you're going to be in for a rude awakening. Just because you are a "volunteer" you can be told what to do. If you don't like it, don't let the door hit you where the lord split you!

[res6cue 67]

Whoever rides on the rig doesn't have to it is their choice we can do what we want.  It is not as unsafe as you "experts" think it is. We deserved that trophy

screw you guys

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The old guys tell me they did it when they were kids,and nobody has ever fallen off in that long time so that proves its not dangerous accidents happen and they will on top of the rig or inside They taught me and there around long enough to polish their trophies

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What a tremendously tragic commentary on the often misplaced deeply rooted belief that our "traditions" are so important that they must endure at any cost.

Between this thread and the the other "riding the backstep" thread floating around here, I can only say I'm stunned at the blatantly ignorant and belligerent responses of some of you yahoos. Yes, that's right, I'm getting right up in your faces. Anyone who has made a post supporting or dismissing this dangerous practice of riding ON the apparatus instead of IN it is a complete and utter moron, period. You can double that indictment if you happen to be a veteran or, God forbid, an officer.

Those warning labels and placards are on fire apparatus for a REASON people. That reason is because firefighters have DIED for doing just what they warn against. It's that simple, really. I don't give a crap if no one in your dept has gotten hurt or died from it, do you think that makes you immune to it? It does not.

You know that electrocution hazard sign on aerials? If you think that's a joke, come by our firehouse and look at the LODD monument out front. We lost a man that way back in 1967 when our Snorkel came in contact with power lines and he touched the truck. As easily as he was killed, it's just as easy for someone to fall off of moving apparatus and suffer an injury or be killed.

Smarten up people.

[grumpyff 1,159]

The old guys tell me they did it when they were kids,and nobody has ever fallen off in that long time so that proves its not dangerous accidents happen and they will on top of the rig or inside They taught me and there around long enough to polish their trophies

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Ah that old argument. Perhaps we should also give up bunker pants, SCBA, thermal imaging cameras, enclosed cabs with both AC and heat, and allow alcohol back on the rigs, as this was all done 'Back in the Day'. Just because no one from your dept has died or been injured from riding all over the apparatus, doesn't mean it can't happen, only that your dept has been lucky. I'm sure that trophy will have great meaning to your dept after it has to hose done a street to remove blood and brain matter should a member fall off the apparatus and crack their head open. Until you can grow up, stay in the firehouse polishing your trophy, and stay off the big shiny fire truck, you're going to hurt yourself.

Edited July 16, 2006 by grumpyff

[Jared1979 19]

If you want to get hurt that is your choice ok You are not supposed to be riding on a truck in the hose bed that is too dangerous and a total lack of common sense

[FF402 133]

I just got another PM from another member, asking ME to stop "making the department look bad".

I was also accused of being jealous because I didn't want them to win so therefore I felt the need to bash them. Please note I wasn't even at the parade, nor am I a member of any department that participates in a parade.

Unreal.

[Guest]

Keep this issue alive, guys.... Maybe in volly departments you have to rely on persuasion and the standards set by the line officers, but certainly in (at least) combination departments a union contract should certainly prohibit this sort of behavior.

The younger firefighters who haven't seen enough action yet don't know how bad death, injury and maiming can be. If you get an ego trip riding on the lines, well, you need to rethink why you want to be in the service in the first place. If you want to "save lives", start with your own.

Where I'm from, we don't have all the parade stuff... and in the years I lived in Pleasantville, I don't recall FD parades, but that was a while ago. Trophies aren't worth that much.

[LCFD968 10]

Wow----- I have seen it all or should I say read it all............

Its unbelievable that it is such an arguement. You guys are getting so worked up over a few people (kids) fighting back. Its obvious that in most departments its a NO NO iwill tell you this if that rig is going to drive me from one end of the parade to the beginning were my department is going to step off because I brought my PV there and the only spot open is on that back step I am taking it. And there is nobody in here that hasn't or wouldn't DO THE SAME.

The problem I saw was the departments coming down Saw Mill Parkway with guys on top. Now that is crossing the line........ Responding to a call riding up on pump panel or hose bed is crossing the line!!!!!!

Driving in traffic bringing guys from one end of the parade to the other, COME ON!!!! For Pete Sake we run into burning buildings, stand in the middle of the highway at a PIAA.....

Stuff Happens and nomatter what we do to prevent its going to happen, If you don't feel comfortable riding the step get off, if you don't feel comfortable riding the hosebed GET OFF!!!!

Please don't misunderstand me " THERE IS NO PLACE FOR YOU TO BE DURING THE RESPONSE TO A CALL THEN IN THE JUMPSEAT OR CAB OF YOUR TRUCK, ENGINE OR RESCUE"

Edited July 16, 2006 by LCFD968

[TRUCK6018 50]

I just got another PM from another member, asking ME to stop "making the department look bad". 

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I was the department that made themselves look bad.

Stuff Happens and nomatter what we do to prevent its going to happen, If you don't feel comfortable riding the step get off, if you don't feel comfortable riding the hosebed GET OFF!!!!

This isn't about what you feel comfortable doing. This is about safety period. Tail boarding has been a no no for some time now. This doesn't mean for just emergencies, it means for anytime the vehicle is in motion. The history of fire apparatus has evolved significantly to both the occupants and the public. Let's not throw the improvements out the window, expessially when it comes to a non-emergency function.

One's own personal choice doen't cut it in the fire service. If you get hurt, you are not the only one accountable. This gets proven time and time again. If you get hurt, both you will suffer the consequences, along with the driver, officer and chief of department. They all should be held accountable because they were all at fault. Fire departments are paramilitary. There is a chain of command that must be followed. There are rules that must be maintained.

I agree fire fighting is dangerous business. Let's keep ourselves safe with the things we can control, like riding in seats with our seatbelts on. If we can't keep ourselves safe with the easy things, we're not going to do it fighting the fire or mitigating the hazmat spill.

[JetPhoto 626]

Done it - Yes

Thought about it while doing it - Yes

Is it right - No

Suggestion:

I think if the potential danger that has been brought up in this thread is absolutely real. The hosting department should have a shuttle service available for all parade participants. They should also note in the parade rules that they will not tolerate such an act.

Why? Because if such an incident (I hope it never does) were to occur, I'm sure there would be some type of legal action against the host department for not providing such transportation. If such a service and advisement is provided the legal liability of the host department would be a little less (lawyers, they know how to get you no matter what.)

I'm sure deals can be worked out with your local school or bus system, and this may save a life or injury.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Not fo r nothing folk, how many times do we have to bring this up here. If you are a member of "said" department and don't like what you have seen with this then bring it up and the company / department meeting!!! I know we tend to vent fustrations here, but it really starting to seem like this same topic ios brought up in the forums 2, 3, 4 times a year (just guessing) especially around parade season. Secondly now taking pictures of the people on trucks like this and posting them here to me is unethical. Why???? It should be discussed with by department members interally and handled ourselves on that level to correct it. Posting it here is not going to do anything except prove that it is wrong and get enotions running where you area with it or not.

Being a concerned member, a person sould bring this up with their department. I know this is only a discussion but its getting to a point, my opinion only, we area beating this like a dead horse and nothing is being done about it where it really matters.

Sorry I had to vent and put my 2 cents in but reguardless what I think on rideing on trucks at parades, the issue has to be brought up where it is going to be more effective and not here. The topic just gets old hearing it over an over agian and nothing is actually done about it but B & M-ing about it.

Sorry all.

[Jason762 2]

Whoever rides on the rig doesn't have to it is their choice we can do what we want.  It is not as unsafe as you "experts" think it is. We deserved that trophy

screw you guys

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ZABT6,

It's hard to put into words how ridiculous you sound. How much of a vollie stemwhacker are you? Now before everyone jumps on how this is not a vol vs career issue, think about it. This is another case of volunteers giving themsleves a bad name. In the career service these things don't happen. If they did the officer would be demoted (or worse), the FF would be seriously disciplined (or worse), and the chief would have a lot of questions to answer. Why don't these things happen in the career service? Hmmm, maybe because we are actually too busy doing things actually related to firefighting and our job. All these parades and other functions are fun, but they seriously take away from what the FD is all about. It turns what should be a job into a social club. The idea that we are sitting here looking at these pictures in 2006, and actually having a discussion about it is unreal. The worst part is, there are actually some people that are defending these actions. What are you thinking? Where did you pick up this mentality? You do not belong in this line of work.

To anyone participating in actions like what we've seen in these pictures, grow up, act responsible, and reevaluate if you truly belong in the fire service at all.

[DOC22 1]

Not fo r nothing folk, how many times do we have to bring this up here.  If you are a member of "said" department and don't like what you have seen with this then bring it up and the company / department meeting!!!  I know we tend to vent fustrations here, but it really starting to seem like this same topic ios brought up in the forums 2, 3, 4 times a year (just guessing) especially around parade season.  Secondly now taking pictures of the people on trucks like this and posting them here to me is unethical.  Why????  It should be discussed with by department members interally and handled ourselves on that level to correct it.  Posting it here is not going to do anything except prove that it is wrong and get enotions running where you area with it or not.

Being a concerned member, a person sould bring this up with their department.  I know this is only a discussion but its getting to a point, my opinion only, we area beating this like a dead horse and nothing is being done about it where it really matters.

Sorry I had to vent and put my 2 cents in but reguardless what I think on rideing on trucks at parades, the issue has to be brought up where it is going to be more effective and not here.  The topic just gets old hearing it over an over agian and nothing is actually done about it but B & M-ing about it.

Sorry all.

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Izzy,

You're not alone here! I agree 100%! It IS time to stop beating the proverbil dead horse!

Listen, people we are all concerned about each others' safety as well as our own. That's one of the things that makes the Emergency Servicies Community what it is! I know that while some of you chose the methodology you do to stress a point, this is starting to show signs of something it need not be. I see no further gain here, to continue arguing over this.

Have I done it? Yes

Would I do it today? no

Fact remains it is POTENTIALLY dangerous to ride on the outside of ANY moving vehicle, period! But to post photographs of vehicles and/or personnel that ANYBODY can recognize the way it's been done here is at least questionable. To bash a department,its officers or members on here is out of line. Again, I would like to believe that whatever bashing or questionable ethical tactics used here were done STRICTLY in the interest of safety and NOTHING ELSE. But I think it's time to put this on a back burner at least for a while.

Just my $.02

[FF402 133]

But to post photographs of vehicles and/or personnel that ANYBODY can recognize the way it's been done here is at least questionable. To bash a department,its officers or members on here is out of line.

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So, what should I have done with the photo? Kept it to myself, and then when something happened to one of those guys, felt horrible because I knew I had evidence to spark change and didn't? I feel confident that this time the heat on this thread will spark change and am very glad it was kept up......this department chose to take this action, in public, at a parade, with a lot of cameras around. And from what I have learned, they have taken heat for it in the past as well, and keep it up.

We need to redefine what we consider "bashing". A department takes an documented action that universally outrages their peers, and we bring it to their attention using in my opinion on of the best resources in this area to communicate with each other. However, those who stand up to try and progress the fire service and make things better are always accused of "bashing" and having alterior motives. Why must people get so defensive and confrontational? It's NOT about CONFLICT, it's about CHANGE Doc.

And by the way, this topic is NOT beaten to death, since people are STILL particpating in the action in question.

[HFD23 37]

thats the problem here now all the members of that department whose rig is pictured are defending themselves or feeling as if they are being bashed... well mabe you should think twice about doing this before its done again. mabe FF402's picture will bring about change and mabe save some ones life because that attitude that members have that because it was done back in the day that it makes it ok is wrong.

also most of us on here don't care about a stupid trophie, we rather not see a FF hurt or killed for a stupid piece or metal n plastic

and no you cant say we have all done it. Because thats not a Fact and no we wont all do it if we parked our POV's away from the line up area.

these are the stupid reasons that we as a fire service kill approx 100 FFs a year stupid things that we don;t learn from.

Learn from the past and let it improve the future.

[DOC22 1]

It's NOT about CONFLICT, it's about CHANGE Doc.

Yeah I Know, You're not telling me what I don't already know. I am not trying to fight you on that. BUT, sometimes in one's attempt to affect change by certain means, better ways can be utilized. I said that riding on the exterior of ANY moving vehicle is POTENTIALLY dangerous. This is one of time honored traditions that needs to end, I not denying that. As hard as you are working on here, to accomplish this are you putting in this much effort where it will really count? As was also mentioned in previous posts, approaching the parade judging associations, or even fighting to get laws passed prohibiting such acts? I never said you were wrong in what you're doing, I just think if you put a little thought into it you could do the job better

[Guest BrotherFF]

As hard as you are working on here, to accomplish this are you putting in this much effort where it will really count?

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This board counts, believe me.

[DOC22 1]

This board counts, believe me.

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I don't mean to say this board doesn't count, what I was getting at was to take this to other levels as well. I know, with the diverse population on here it will have some effect, but taking it to a "higher authority" (and they do exist) may expedite this needed change