Does The Chief Care About Their Safety?

[Guest]

In the career service these things don't happen.

Why don't these things happen in the career service? 

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Jason762, don't forget, as much as people like to bash the unions, that's another reason unsafe practices don't occur or are fought against in the career departments.....we have unions that stick up for our safety with city adminsitrators and sometimes out of touch department heads.

Maybe volunteers need a similar organization to fight for their safety, or maybe as mentioned orginizations like the Parade Judges need to step in andd help out. You take points off for a dirty compartment, but not for engaging in an unsafe practice during a parade?? Where is the sense in that in 2006? Unfortunetly, tropys still talk. EVERYONE needs to play a role in making sure the departments in our area are all up to speed.

[GFD70 4]

Whoever rides on the rig doesn't have to it is their choice we can do what we want. It is not as unsafe as you "experts" think it is. We deserved that trophy

screw you guys

While you may not read about firefighters dying because they fell off their truck on a daily basis, one death or injury is too many. Did you already forget about the FDNY firefighter who almost died because he fell off a moving truck a year ago?

As far as trophys go, I'd be alot more concerned with the safety of me and my fellow firefighters than whats in my departments trophy case. By the way try telling OSHA you can "do what you want" and I'm pretty sure they won't care how many trophys you won.

The old guys tell me they did it when they were kids,and nobody has ever fallen off in that long time so that proves its not dangerous accidents happen and they will on top of the rig or inside They taught me and there around long enough to polish their trophies

While its true accidents can and will happen, they can also be prevented. Hopefully the rest of your department does not share that same attitude that you do.

[Jason762 2]

Jason762, don't forget, as much as people like to bash the unions, that's another reason unsafe practices don't occur or are fought against in the career departments.....we have unions that stick up for our safety with city adminsitrators and sometimes out of touch department heads.

Maybe volunteers need a similar organization to fight for their safety, or maybe as mentioned orginizations like the Parade Judges need to step in andd help out. You take points off for a dirty compartment, but not for engaging in an unsafe practice during a parade?? Where is the sense in that in 2006? Unfortunetly, tropys still talk. EVERYONE needs to play a role in making sure the departments in our area are all up to speed.

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I agree 100%...unions can be a wonderful thing. When the city doesn't care about our safety they can make them spend the $$ to make sure we are safe. Obviously all the statistics on safety and injuries and case studies in the world will not ever change the mind of certain individuals. Many Vols. claim to be on the same level as us, and some may be close, but things like this just make me shake my head...

[DOC22 1]

And by the way, this topic is NOT beaten to death, since people are STILL particpating in the action in question.

And the discussion will go on and on forever.

You can tell some people one time or ten thousand times, It doesn't change--Then you get to the current point of beating that damn dead horse!

[hudson144 150]

its up to each and everyone of us not to let that happen regardless where u are from! the term'' accident waiting to happen'' certainly applies here. come on n smarten up.if you are the driver in a situation refuse to move the rig,if something bad did happen you are the one who will be responsible for the consequences!!! BY THE WAY-I DON'T KNOW WHERE THE DEPT IS FROM AND DON'T CARE TO KNOW-YOU CAN DELETE THE PICTURE AND IT IS STILL A GOOD TOPIC TO OPEN SOME EYES OF OTHERS OUT THERE BOTH CAREER AND VOL.

Edited July 16, 2006 by hudson144

[LCFD968 10]

More Firefighters die from Heart Attacks then falling off of trucks every year, Right???

IF THERE IS THAT MUCH OF A CONCERN ABOUT FIREFIGHTERS DEING THEN STOP SERVING HOTDOGS AND BEER IN THE BALL PEN AFTER THE PARADE!!!!!!

Bring on Veggie Burgers and Tufo Dogs

Edited July 16, 2006 by LCFD968

[TRUCK6018 50]

More Firefighters die from Heart Attacks then falling off of trucks every year, Right???

IF THERE IS THAT MUCH OF A CONCERN ABOUT FIREFIGHTERS DEING THEN STOP SERVING HOTDOGS AND BEER IN THE BALL PEN AFTER THE PARADE!!!!!!

Bring on Veggie Burgers and Tufo Dogs

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Nope, firefighter heath and fitness are covered under NFPA 1583. We're talking about NFPA 1901/1500. Let's not change the topic.

Edited July 16, 2006 by TRUCK6018

[LCFD968 10]

Nope, firefighter heath and fitness are covered under NFPA 1583.  We're talking about NFPA 1901/1500.  Let's not change the topic.

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LOL!!!!!! Not changing subject!!!

[Truck4 48]

Objectively speaking, having been to many parades I will add that I cnnot remember a parade, anywhere, that I did not see members riding on top or on the back step; before, during or after. Marchers are often shuttled down the parade route this way, even when they are band members and non-firefighters. This should not be a thread spotlighting one or two particular departments, there are many involved in this practice.

[calhobs 110]

Is there any life left in this horse?

[Guest WolfEMT]

As far as fire fighter safety and the possibility of change, etc., I think we have beaten that horse to death over the last few posts. However, I have one objective question: How do you think the public views this kind of behavior? Generally speaking, do you think, in the event of an emergency, that the general public would want these people coming to their aid in a critical time when they cannot even observe the simplest form of common sense?

Edited July 17, 2006 by WolfEMT

[Ex-2114 7]

OK... Let's look at a comparison here and see just how similar the two situations are:

Item A:

You parked far from the step off line for your dept and ride the hosebed of the apparatus to the destination with a bunch of other members.

Item B:

You spend 6 hours at the bar knocking down a dozen beers. You stagger to your POV, get behind the wheel and start driving home all alone.

Here's the comparison:

People are doing both of these items all the time. 25 years ago, neither was that big of a deal.

Each item can and will usually involve at least one other person:

A: You are falling off the top of the hosebed and the guy sitting next to you reaches to grab you but your weight pulls him over the side of the truck. Now you're both screwed.

B: Chances are that you'll get involved in a head-on with another car while in your drunken stupor.

Follow me on this one???

25 years was a long time ago. Lots of things have changed... Like wearing Nomex or PBI into a burning building instead of rubber; wearing an SCBA into a burning building; wearing your seatbelt while driving; etc, etc, etc...

I spent several years in the ranks... Training is important - you train because your life depends on it; your buddies life depends on it. The topics you train on may involve newer and possibly better ways to do things. The topics could just be the basics - how and where to hold a hose line for attacking a car fire from the side and not the front or rear.

Why is it so important to do what you want to do?? As it's been stated above, FIREFIGHTERS DIE!!! Though many are health related (as stated above about the dogs and brews in the bullpens) but some are also because people just don't think.

If you take the time to put on your nice non-rubber turnout gear, bunker pants (not 3/4 rubber boots), and SCBA (leave the leather lungs out of it), why can't you sit in a vehicle that has a sign posted beneath the driver's seat that says SEATING CAPACITY: 6??? Notice it doesn't say Standing Capacity or Number of People in the Hosebed or on the back step.

Take 30 seconds to think your decicions through - they may just be your last.

I don't post many things here, usually just look, read, and often times learn. I am not longer involved in the Fire or EMS services, but I still like to know what's happening since I left 6 years ago. Some things are changing right before my eyes (FAST Teams, Thermal Imaging Cameras, and so on...). Other things like riding on top of a hosebed or on a 12" deep back step are wanting to change, but... well, I'll just leave the rest of you (the people who think that they are immune to the laws of gravity and averages) to finish.

I really do hope and pray that those that feel they are immune to gravity and averages do not learn the hard way - I really do. But it will happen... maybe not to you directly, but to someone you know or never knew.

Be safe. Be careful. Take the 30 seconds to think through your action - it may be your last.

Jeff.

[junior215 0]

I find it depressing that this picture was regarded as "bashing" a certain fire department. Isn't it the act itself that made the department look bad. The picture is just the proof.

Paid FD's are not "better." What they are is accountable. If a member of the public had a problem with this action, where does it go?? The Chief?? The Board?? What can happen --- losing days of pay????

I know some vollies are disciplined. I do not want to generalize. But lets get real. I remember a post about wetdowns a while ago that caused controversy. Events like this are public displays. PUBLIC!!! The same public that supports the fund drives. The same public that most of the time doesn't even know that their fire department is volunteer. They usually are oblivious or just don't care. But, you can bet your a** they will look at all of us very closely if guys start dying doing stupid things.

I think the lesson here should be this: we all have a good thing, paid or vollie. We are involved in a great service and, most of the time, have good intentions. Why do we still put ourselves at risk doing stupid things. If we put half the effort into health and safety as we did into arguing and worrying about whose apparatus is cooler, we might get below that 100 LODD a year number.

God, before your know it we will all be driving little silver hybrids and saving the environment!!!!!!!!!

[Remember585 815]

I'm curious and maybe someone can help me here.

If you are riding on the back of a rig and fall off, will you received the same benefits as a firefighter who dies actually fighting a fire?

If you do - then point me in the right direction so I can start pushing for a change. We should not reward stupid deaths the same way we would for those lost doing the right thing.

We all have to grow up and do what is right - sometimes it is hard, I'll admit it, but we got to step it up and make these changes - or we will be attending funerals that could of and should of been avoided.

There is no pride in going to a LODD funeral for someone when we could of avoided it.

[INIT915 1,119]

If you, as the party taking the risk of riding on the rig, are not concerned about your own safety, consider the position your putting the operator in...

NYS Penal Law:

Section 120.00 Assault in the third degree

A person is guilty of assault in the third degree when:

Subd 2. He recklessly causes physical injury to another person;

Assault in the third degree is a class A misdemeanor.

Section 120.20 Reckless endangerment in the second degree

A person is guilty of reckless endangerment in the second degree when he recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person.

Reckless endangerment in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.

Section 120.25 Reckless endangerment in the first degree

A person is guilty of reckless endangerment in the first degree when, under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life, he recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to another person.

Reckless endangerment in the first degree is a class D felony.

[sr71 1]

at my dept they used to ride on the back step but that was a diffrent time when the trucks had running boards for that like our maxim pumper the new trucks are safer and they dont have those big running boards. and we outlawed all riding on the trucks without sitting and belted in. but if u belt or not its your choice.

guys im a probie and i know that its not safe and if u do it you shouldnt be around a truck or a fire house. they should be in a corner with a dunce cap on

[BIGRED1 71]

The old guys tell me they did it when they were kids,and nobody has ever fallen off in that long time so that proves its not dangerous accidents happen and they will on top of the rig or inside They taught me and there around long enough to polish their trophies

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did they also tell you about how back in the day they never wore air masks and that smoking a cigar would help you breath smoke? ya just cause some people did it a LONG time ago doesn't mean it is right.

May i also point out that i don't think the actual dept. has been pointed out. As stated some guys know what rig it is, but i don't. The point is not WHO it is but WHAT their doing. this who idea about riding on back boards is done and over with, JUST DON'T DO IT!.

As for jr. little comment about how we can all "screw ourselves" , GROW UP! someday you are going to be a big boy and will have to answer to real bosses who will fire you from your job for being that rude to them.

we are all here to HELP one another as well as the community. they are going to have little faith in us if we fall off the back of the rig on Main St. and kill ourselves for a trophy that will collect more dust the the OSHA guidlines that had not been read by the people who are on top of the rig.

Rant over Stay safe guys!

[ex-commish 490]

I'm curious and maybe someone can help me here.

If you are riding on the back of a rig and fall off, will you received the same benefits as a firefighter who dies actually fighting a fire?

If you do - then point me in the right direction so I can start pushing for a change.  We should not reward stupid deaths the same way we would for those lost doing the right thing.

We all have to grow up and do what is right - sometimes it is hard, I'll admit it, but we got to step it up and make these changes - or we will be attending funerals that could of and should of been avoided.

There is no pride in going to a LODD funeral for someone when we could of avoided it.

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Where you could get into trouble in recieving benefits is where you see on the back of the rig there usully a plate that warns you about being on the back step while the vehicle is in motion. It is unsafe...period.

Now to address " we did it for years"... yes that is absolutely true. I rode the back fo for years in the early 80's untill it was realized it was unsafe and closed cabs were being produced. I could remember riding in the hosebed. Was it safe?

We only wore scott paks if we really had to? Use them at car fires? Nah!! Now it is standard to use them all the time. We went from boots to bunker pants. Another hard sell...myself included. We never used safety or accountability officers. Laws say you have to now. We spend time and money on training our people to be safe at fires and other incidents yet put the very same people at risk at parades. I don't get it.

Physicals, fit testing, TB testing, Hep shots, bloodborne training, survival training, FF1, FF2, NIMS, Nomex hoods. Remember the days of washing down gas from an auto leak? Do that now and see what happens.

Change has been painful for some, again myself included but you know what change usualy has safety in mind. No FD is perfect but most do strive to meet the standards and do what is right. Parades are meant to be fun, a show of pride and also an event for the public to enjoy. Trophies are nice but when you start jeapordizing safety for the sake of winning one you're asking for it.

[IzzyEng4 427]

OK here's some food for thought.

You packing you 5 inch on the bed of your truck, you have members on top of the truck, 9 times out of 10 the truck is in motion either forward or backwards to aid in getting the lengths back up (i'm not talking about 1 to 3 but a long lay).

Same difference right and we all do that..........

Were is it all going to end? Until something happens. period.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

ZABT6.... You got quiet awfully fast. What happened you pi$$ed away all your vinegar. Or did you read exactly what you posted and realized how stupid you sounded.

You want to ride on a back of a vehicle? Join the Elks club and ride on top of the back seat of a convertible in a parade.

Someone also said if your comfortable so be it if your not don't do it.

So if you fall off and you were comfortable...thats ok.

"We deserved that trophy." Whoopdedoo...so did 5 other departments that worked just as or harder then you did. Doesn't mean you should still act stupid.

In another post there are those that say if you don't have a thick skin, that maybe the fire service isn't for you. There is nothing wrong with those pictures being posted on here. I couldn't tell you either what departments they are from and I don't care either way. Stupid is stupid. If it were my department I would discuss it, if I were leadership I'd stop it. period.

[GAW6 66]

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As a Commissioner in charge of insurance, I can answer that. If a firefighter falls off the back of a truck we are absolutley responsible to pay the benfits. A few years back we had a firefighter perform a stupid act at a fire scene and believe me we are paying BIG TIME - not to mention all the people he is trying to sue!

To ZABT6 - I am very glad you are not a member of our department. I would be mortified to have someone with that kind of an attitude! The hell with the trophies - I wouldn't want to have to be the one telling your mommy and daddy that you fell off of a fire truck because you were excited about winning a trophy!

To the ones talking about parking their personal vehicles and riding on the back of a truck to the line-up, I also parked my personal vehicle, but took the SHUTTLE BUS that was avilable to the line up.

[HFD23 37]

OK here's some food for thought.

You packing you 5 inch on the bed of your truck, you have members on top of the truck, 9 times out of 10 the truck is in motion either forward or backwards to aid in getting the lengths back up (i'm not talking about 1 to 3 but a long lay).

Same difference right and we all do that..........

Were is it all going to end?  Until something happens. period.

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We all don;t do it, all of you need to stop justifying your actions, the bottom line is that no one should be any where on a rig while its in motion unless they are seated in a seat and seatbelted...

We all keep making excuses and FF's keep gettin killed in apparatus accidents while backing, riding and responding. lets cut the excuses and follow the rules and be safe.

alot of you just can;t get it in your heads this topic is about preventing a accident or injury of a fellow FF.

[IzzyEng4 427]

We all don;t do it, all of you need to stop justifying your actions, the bottom line is that no one should be any where on a rig while its in motion unless they are seated in a seat and seatbelted...

We all keep making excuses and FF's keep gettin killed in apparatus accidents while backing, riding and responding. lets cut the excuses and follow the rules and be safe.

alot of you just can;t get it in your heads this topic is about preventing a accident or injury of a fellow FF.

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Why do you think I posted this as some food for thought? This also does happen and it is another angle. Someone is going to get injured and that is when something is going to happen! That's when firefighters will realize that we are our own worst enemy.

Also, I don't justify my actions and to say that we all don't do it is not true because, not accusing, a majority of people have or will do sommething unbsafe as what is being posted in this topic. To say that a person has never is hard to beleive. I'm not writing a position on my actions nor have I stated what I beleive in this post. I will admit, I have done so in the past.

HFD23, I'm not pickung on you at all and I fully agree with your post but the reality on both sides of this issue is so clouded that it will never be resolved.

The trouble is that riding on a truck while in motion was finally gotten rid of after the tragic incident that happened in Waterbury, CT in the late 1980's / early 90's. For those who donot remember this, a spare pumper was responding with 5 members (driver & officer in the cab, two firefighters in each jump seat and one standing in the jump seat on the officer's side) To keep the facts straight ans short, the truck had break trouble and could not slow down comming down the hill from thier station. The driver made an evasive move to avoid oncomming traffic and put the truck into a parking lot. Unfortunately, teh truck crashed into a tree and two firefighters, the seated and standing firefighter in the right side jump seat passed away. Though the fully enclosed cabs and "DO NOT STAND" and "NOT A STEP SIGNS" came about, why area we still doing unsafte standing? Simple... WE DON'T THINK ABOUT OURSELVES UNLESS ITS TOO LATE. My Personal opinion is also NFPA and OSHA really hasen't done anything about and is really powerless. Yes there area seat belt laws, ect but those have been in place by our local law. I was a big opponent about wearing seatbelts especially while in the rear jump seats, but with our new truck having the "trigger system" on the seats, it's become second nature and I hardly notice the difference. I can still get my pack on and strapped without taking my saftey belt off.

You look at the situtation with all new trucks comming in with hosebed covers for all beds, crosslays and wells. The incident which I beleive happened in the Philly or Pittsburg area, a nozzle and hose length came out of a crosslay while the truck was making a turn. Unfortunately a woman was struck in the head by the nozzle and died within a matter of minute do to blunt force trauma. This happened in September of 2005. By November 2005, NFPA required an annex to 1901 to require all hose beds and wells to have netting and or covers to prevent hos efrom exiting the beds. This is required of all apparatus and is enforce. How, Insurance. If the cover isn't on, NFPA will not cover you incase of an accident such as this.

Now the question I pose to you all is how are we to stop a tradition that goes unchecked with NFPA already has the writing on the books for no riding on apparatus outside of the cab? We have to enforce it, these newer trucks are not made like the last trucks with tailboards in the late 80's. I know I'm adding fuel to the fire but stop and think about it for a minute.

Stay Safe all.

Edited July 17, 2006 by IzzyEng4

[sr71 1]

we reseltly discussed this topic in my depts last meeting and now there is a zero tolerence policy if any member attempting to ride on the steps will be suspended for 6 months and the second offence is being kicked out of the dept.

people were firefighters not garbage men here and if u want to ride the step get a job at a refuse company cause thats were u belong!!!!

[HFD23 37]

Also, I don't justify my actions and to say that we all don't do it is not true because, not accusing, a majority of people have or will do sommething unbsafe as what is being posted in this topic. To say that a person has never is hard to beleive. I'm not writing a position on my actions nor have I stated what I beleive in this post. I will admit, I have done so in the past.

HFD23, I'm not pickung on you at all and I fully agree with your post but the reality on both sides of this issue is so clouded that it will never be resolved.

Stay Safe all.

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No on sees it as being picked on i was just pointing out that several members seem to cloud the issue rather then attempt to solve it, you gave some very informative information and sadly i tend to disagree with you on that these things will not change, its up to us as Firefighters and espically the Chiefs and OFFicers of a department to make sure things liek this don;t happen and i am sure the chief now thanks to the picture is aware of the incident and hopefully they do something to prevent it from happening in the future. thats what this is all about.....

[spin_the_wheel 460]

at my dept they used to ride on the back step but that was a diffrent time when the trucks had running boards for that like our maxim pumper the new trucks are safer and they dont have those big running boards. 

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Not to stir it up but to make a point, the rig in question is an 80's truck with a larger tail board, built to ride on......anyway...... Like all the older guys here we all did it, even put gear on while riding crazy like that, but then again thats the way we were brought up, and at the time I felt comfortable doing it. I have to be honest and say not to long ago we did this for some other reason (riding the side and ladder bed) and I remeber thinking to myself, woah I DON"T feel to comfortable doing this any more, and hung on a lot tighter then I ever had.......it was not to far but I did think of it...was it stupid YES. It would take another paragragh to explain why it was done (not to an alarm), at the very least the OIC did not allow any of the younger members who had never done this before to do it....again IM NOT SAYING IT WAS RIGHT......but it happened.

[RESCUERABBITS 0]

Its Sad that the Fire Service has always been guilty of what I call the "Fatal Mentality Syndrome, Where, because of a lack of common sense they wait for someone to be seriously injured or die before any changes are initiated.

Haven't we all seen enough death and serious injuries in our line of work!

I heard it said a number of times, very simply put,

ARRIVE ALIVE

Edited July 18, 2006 by RESCUERABBITS

[JustSomeGuy 0]

To anyone who defends these actions: Do you guys know what happens to a body when it hits the pavement after being thrown from a moving vehicle?

[pjm1733 22]

MOTOR VEHICLE ACCIDENTS

Melinda Ohler of the San Francisco Fire Department died from head injuries received after she fell out of the back of the open cab of the fire apparatus she was riding as it responded to what turned out to be a false alarm.

In a somewhat similar incident, Jason Lee Ellis of the Loretto, Tennessee Fire Department was critically injured when he also suffered head injuries after falling from the back of a moving vehicle. Ellis fell out of a pick-up truck and hit his head on the road while traveling from the training grounds to the front of the campus at the Tennessee Fire Service and Codes Enforcement Academy. He died a week after the incident.

Other fatal falls occurred when two firefighters fell from ladders, another passed out due to a cardiac arrhythmia and struck his head on the pavement, and another suffered a head injury after falling from a lawnmower while cutting the department's lawn in the area of an incline.

After heart attacks, motor vehicle accidents were the single largest cause of death for firefighters in 2003, claiming 25 lives. These include accidents involving fire apparatus as well as firefighters' personal vehicles.

The eight Oregon firefighters killed in a van crash on their way home from a wildfire in South Fork, Idaho comprised the largest multiple fatality incident of 2003. Conflicting results from several blood tests done on the driver have raised the question of whether alcohol was a factor in the crash. Charges of reckless endangerment and drunken driving were filed against the firefighter's employer, First Strike Environmental Co.

Alcohol was confirmed to be a factor in the rollover crash that killed 16-year-old Wyoming fire explorer Anndee Huber. Huber, a 10th grader at Newcastle High School, was ejected from the cab of a tanker and trapped underneath when the driver lost control of the vehicle. The firefighter at the wheel pleaded guilty in July to aggravated vehicular homicide.

Another 16-year-old youth firefighter, Karlton Allen Cole Briscoe of the Hickory Flat Volunteer Fire Department in Mississippi, died after he crashed into a ravine while responding to an alarm in his private vehicle.

Another unusual motor vehicle accident occurred when firefighter Shane Brown of DeSoto Parish Fire District 8 in Louisiana was killed when he crossed railroad tracks in front of a freight train and was hit.

STRUCK BY VEHICLES

Six firefighters were killed in 2003 after being struck by motor vehicles. Most of these deaths occurred while firefighters were working at incidents along the side of the road and were struck by passing motorists.

One of these tragedies claimed Assistant Chief Don Billig of the St. Cloud Fire Department in Minnesota as he was replacing a barricade blocking a construction zone. A passing pickup truck struck his crew's truck and then struck Billig, killing him. The driver of the pickup left the scene on foot but then turned himself into law enforcement officials the next morning.

A more unusual accident occurred when one firefighter was struck and killed by his department's apparatus. Barry D. Lutsy of the Racine Volunteer Fire Department in West Virginia was struck by the apparatus as it backed into a bay at the fire station after a call.

Edited July 18, 2006 by pjm1733

[pjm1733 22]

it goes on in 2004

Three firefighters were killed when fire apparatus backed over them.

A Pennsylvania incident occurred at the fire station and was not associated with an emergency response.

Five firefighters were killed when they were struck by passing vehicles at the scene of an emergency.

Additionally, four firefighters were killed in falls from fire department vehicles.

Firefighter Statistics - 2004

USFA Counts 107 Firefighter Fatalities In 2004

Department of Homeland Security