Does Hazing Go On In Your Department?

[Guest 1239]

DOES HAZING GO ON IN YOUR DEPTS. WITH YOUNGER MEMEBERS AND OR PRO. MEMBERS, AND I SO WHAT IS DONE TO STOP IT. I HAVE SEEN IT GO ON AND WANTED TO NO WHAT YOU GUYS THINK AND WHAT ACTIONS SHOULD BE TAKEN?? THANKS FOR THE ADVICE

[pjm1733 22]

Hazing is a form of harassment. A violation of federal law. Your dept. is required to have posted policies, and a way of reporting, With out fear of reprisals. Should you report such a incident and no actions are taken, plan on owning a firehouse.

[robert benz 344]

Hazing is a form of harassment. A violation of federal law. Your dept. is required to have posted policies, and a way of reporting, With out fear of reprisals. Should you report such a incident and no actions are taken, plan on owning a firehouse.

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what do you consider hazing? Is dumping a bucket of water on a probie hazing?

there is fun and letting members know they are welcome into the "inner circle" and then there is malicious conduct that should not be tolerated.

if your skin isnt thick enough for the fun, you are in the wrong place.

[Guest]

Unfortunately hazing has a different for each person. Verbal remarks could be hazing. But I agree with benz that you shouldn't be in this business if you can't take a little abuse/fun.

[capt36 9]

what do you consider hazing? Is dumping a bucket of water on a probie hazing?

there is fun and letting members know they are welcome into the "inner circle" and then there is malicious conduct that should not be tolerated.

if your skin isnt thick enough for the fun,  you are in the wrong place.

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I agree with you Bob. There is a certain amount of iniating done when joining any orginization, FD, PD, EMS or the Elks. If things are done in a certain manner it can't be considered hazing. If things are done in a sophmoric manner such a fraternity when people are hurt either physically or mentally it crosses the boundaries. I think we are becoming too Politically Correct and the only ones benifitting are the lawyers/

[Guest alsfirefighter]

The difference between hazing and "initiation" is a matter of words. It depends on the tolerance level of the individual you are dealing with. If they are sensitive then the simple act of dumping water on them could be considered hazing. If they have moderate to strong tolerance then its nothing more then a simple joke. There is a very fine line between playing a joke and what is abuse and it is a line that is drawn by the receive individual not the instigator.

[Guest]

In all the departments I have been with over the last 10 years, I have never seen any act of "hazing" or "initiation" going on. Simple, harmless pranks yes. In departments that still do practice hazing, etc. ZERO TOLERANCE should be imposed by the Commisioners/Chiefs. No matter how innocent the act, someone inevitably get hurt in one form or another. This does not promote trust within the department. This only promotes destitution within the ranks. In this day and age where we are watched with scrutiny by the public, we should not allow them the opportunity to cast another bad stone at us. It takes one bad apple to ruin the whole apple tree.

As to punishment. It's a coin toss. I personally would fight for immediate dismissal. Some may say extended suspension in conjunction with the attendace of a class/seminar regarding hazing.

Edited July 13, 2006 by REDOKTBR

[FirNaTine 370]

Hazing, Initiating, Harassment, call it what ever you want, if you can't take it, the Fire Service is no place for your sorry a** sensitive self! If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen. No pun intended of course. Let's stop always trying to be politically correct, and worrying about LAWSUITS! Personally, I really don't want a guy who gets pissed off if a bucket of water is dropped on his head or his bed sheats shorted, backing my a** up in a fire. If he/she gets pissed at this, GOD only knows how they're going to react when the $hit hits the fan at a fire scene. Enough already with the sensitivity training. Let's all try and start acting like the big, courageous, professsional fireman, we claim to be!

[pjm1733 22]

1239 I hope this helps you below is some of the policy of a dept. near you. Should you need some help pm me and I will gladly help you out any way I can. In short hazing is not allowed in any form.

The purpose of this policy is to maintain a healthy work environment in which all individuals are treated with respect and dignity and to provide procedures for reporting, investigating and resolving complaints of harassment and discrimination. Federal law provides for protection of classes of persons based on race, color, sex, religion, age, disability and national origin.

It is the policy of this department that all employees have the right to work in an environment free of all forms of harassment. This department will not tolerate, condone or allow harassment by employees, whether sworn, civilian, volunteer or other non-employees who conduct business with this department. This department considers harassment and discrimination of others a form of serious employee misconduct. Therefore, the department will take direct and immediate action to prevent such behavior, and investigate all reported instances of harassment and discrimination.

1. No employee will either explicitly or implicitly ridicule, mock, deride or belittle any person.

2. Employees shall not make offensive or derogatory comments to any person, either directly or indirectly, based on race, color, sex, religion, age, disability or national origin. Such harassment is a prohibited form of discrimination under state and federal employment law and/or is also considered misconduct subject to disciplinary action by this department.

1. Each supervisor shall be responsible for preventing acts of harassment. This responsibility includes:

a, Monitoring the unit work environment on a daily basis for signs that harassment may be occurring.

b, Stopping any observed acts that may be considered harassment, and taking appropriate steps to intervene, whether or not the involved employees are within his/her line of supervision; and

c, Taking immediate action to prevent retaliation towards the complaining party and to eliminate the hostile work environment where there has been a complaint of harassment, pending investigation.

[robert benz 344]

1239 I hope this helps you below is some of the policy of a dept. near you. Should you need some help pm me and I will gladly help you out any way I can. In short hazing is not allowed in any form.

 

The purpose of this policy is to maintain a healthy work environment in which all individuals are treated with respect and dignity and to provide procedures for reporting, investigating and resolving complaints of harassment and discrimination. Federal law provides for protection of classes of persons based on race, color, sex, religion, age, disability and national origin.

It is the policy of this department that all employees have the right to work in an environment free of all forms of harassment. This department will not tolerate, condone or allow harassment by employees, whether sworn, civilian, volunteer or other non-employees who conduct business with this department. This department considers harassment and discrimination of others a form of serious employee misconduct. Therefore, the department will take direct and immediate action to prevent such behavior, and investigate all reported instances of harassment and discrimination.

  1. No employee will either explicitly or implicitly ridicule, mock, deride or belittle any person.

  2. Employees shall not make offensive or derogatory comments to any person, either directly or indirectly, based on race, color, sex, religion, age, disability or national origin. Such harassment is a prohibited form of discrimination under state and federal employment law and/or is also considered misconduct subject to disciplinary action by this department.

  1. Each supervisor shall be responsible for preventing acts of harassment. This responsibility includes:

    a,  Monitoring the unit work environment on a daily basis for signs that harassment may be occurring.

      b, Stopping any observed acts that may be considered harassment, and taking appropriate steps to intervene, whether or not the involved employees are within his/her line of supervision; and

    c, Taking immediate action to prevent retaliation towards the complaining party and to eliminate the hostile work environment where there has been a complaint of harassment, pending investigation.

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I will get back with my reply as soon as i can figure out a way to word it correctly, as i dont want to offend anybody.

before i go I DO NOT CONDONE HAZING, A FF. DIED ABOUT A YEAR AGO DURING "RECRUIT HELL NITE". i figure i will offend someone no matter what I say so here goes,

I wonder if you walk around with a clipboard taking names down for breaking federal law, for something so simple as "god bless you " if someone sneezes, or "merry Christmas" now that we can no longer have anything other than "holiday parties".

the way you seem to live by the "rules" did you ever go over 30 mph on a city street, or 55 mph on a highway? Did you call the police on yourself.

bottom line anything at any given time can offend someone somewhere

it is time to fun police to go back where they came from and let Me laugh again without worrying about offending someone.

[20y2 43]

Its people that live by the book that kill the joy that any of us gets from going to work.

[Guest WolfEMT]

In the fire service, like in law enforcement, there needs to be a little bit of a release due to the nature of the job. However, there's a difference between being funny and being malicious. In my old office, the cops I used to work with used to break each others' chops every single day, trading jabs back and forth on any number of topics like what color shirt they were wearing (the infamous pink shirt joke) to what they "really" did in their spare time. Although they used to bust on each other, they all knew that if push ever came to shove and something bad were to happen, they would each have either others' backs. That's why this whole thing is often referred to as "the brotherhood:" like in any family, you're going to tease each other at times, but at the same time you know that you'll be there for someone, too. As long as things are within reason and you don't make the probie go out in a thunderstorm with a metal extension ladder to change the burned out lightbulb in the parking lot to the firehouse, you need to learn to laugh and roll with the punches. Sometimes this job can really weigh heavily on your mind, and if you cannot laugh at times, then the job will probably really end up getting to you.

Edited July 13, 2006 by WolfEMT

[dfcic 0]

I have to say that I'm all for safety, and respect, in the fire service. I have found in my dozen years in the fire service, however, that we've become so attuned to being sensitive that we're afraid to remind newer members that they shouldn't have strong opinions on everything the day they finish FF1, and that we've all done the less-than-glamourous grunt work at one point in our careers.

It was sort of an unspoken rule when I joined that we wouldn't be so outspoken to more senior members. And that, if hose needed to be packed, air bottles changed, etc., we'd jump at the opportunity to do so.

Don't get me wrong: we're very lucky in my department to have a wealth of hardworking newer members. But for those that join for the wrong reasons, who pick what they want to come to (i.e. calls and parades) and skip what they don't (cleanups, etc.), should be told as much. There's a right and wrong way of doing so, but we shouldn't be so afraid of "hazing" these members that we don't teach them to be hardworking. Leading by example, I find, isn't always sufficient anymore.

Many hands make light work, right?

And I agree that a little busting of chops has a place in the camaraderie in the fire service -- this is one of the parts of it that, I think, got us all interested in the first place. All within reason - it's a matter of degrees.

[JBE 328]

Ummm if a department actively engages in hazing, do you honestly think anyone would post it here??

[4truck48 25]

When I came on the job many years ago I was told that if you had any weakness hide it well, I think that is good advise for everybody. If you have a thin skin then maybe the fire service isn't for you, especially the fire house kitchen.

[Guest 1239]

Ummm if a department actively engages in hazing, do you honestly think anyone would post it here??

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i totally agere with JBE i wanted to see what every ones opinon was! i think there has been some good points mabe and still think this is an issue in fire houses today that sometimes a blind eye is turned to

[210 91]

I will get back with my reply as soon as i can figure out a way to word it correctly, as i dont want to offend anybody.

before i go  I DO NOT CONDONE HAZING,  A FF. DIED ABOUT A YEAR AGO DURING "RECRUIT HELL NITE".  i figure i will offend someone no matter what I say so here goes,

I wonder if you walk around with a clipboard taking names down for breaking federal law, for something so simple as "god bless you " if someone sneezes, or "merry Christmas"  now that we can no longer have anything other than "holiday parties".

the way you seem to live by the "rules"  did you ever go over 30 mph on a city street, or 55 mph on a highway?  Did you call the police on yourself.

bottom line anything at any given time can offend someone somewhere

it is time to fun police to go back where they came from  and let Me laugh again without worrying about offending someone.

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Amen brother.

[robert benz 344]

i totally agere with JBE i wanted to see what every ones opinon was! i think there has been some good points mabe and still think this is an issue in fire houses today that sometimes a blind eye is turned to

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it still goes back to what do you consider to be hazing?

is the "victim" complaining, and if so that would have to be addressed. If it is considered by "everyone" including firefighters who have gone thru the same "treatment" that it is just fun and games, then maybe the individual that is complaining is the problem, if it is just the opposite, then YES it has to be dealt with and you have a case.

there are two distinct groups in any fire dept. everybody that joins is ON the fd. that doesnt get you into the "BROTHERHOOD". That comes with earning your fellow brothers / sisters respect.

That comes from doing the right thing at the right time, nobody gives it to you, IT HAS TO BE EARNED.

i HAVE SEEN PLENTY OF PROBIES IN 25 YRS, SOME WENT THIER WHOLE CAREER WITHOUT ENTERING THE BROTHERHOOD.

SORRY FOR GOING OFF TOPIC

[FirNaTine 370]

it still goes back to what do you consider to be hazing?

is the "victim" complaining, and if so that would have to be addressed. If it is considered by "everyone" including firefighters who have gone thru the same "treatment" that it is just fun and games,  then maybe the individual that is complaining is the problem,  if it is just the opposite, then YES  it has to be dealt with and you have a case. 

there are two distinct groups in any fire dept.  everybody that joins is ON the fd. that doesnt get you into the "BROTHERHOOD". That comes with earning your fellow brothers / sisters  respect.

That comes from doing the right thing at the right time, nobody gives it to you,  IT HAS TO BE EARNED.

i HAVE SEEN PLENTY OF PROBIES IN 25 YRS, SOME WENT THIER WHOLE CAREER WITHOUT ENTERING THE BROTHERHOOD.

SORRY FOR GOING OFF TOPIC

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You also had a lot of guys though that had entered the Brotherhood. In fact some of them taught me at Iona College.

[Guest]

You have to consider the new members we're getting these days. Right out of the Academy they think they know it all. Maybe their just a product of society.

Most I've seen don't take direction well. And when you try to welcome them into your world that is the fire service with a little flour in there bed. Look out! Talk about can't take a joke. Who wants to call the Law dept. Who's calling the COD. Who's gonna pay to wash their sheets it sort of takes the fun out of it.

To some anything is Harassment. What was a good joke when I got on won't go over to well today.

Remember..... not all new guys are like this, but way to many are.

[res6cue 67]

Hazing? Mean spirited acts? Acts intended to embarass or otherwise belittle new members? No.

However, the light hearted antics abound. Unfortunately, yes, there are some overly sensitive individuals that take even the most well intentioned things the wrong way. In today's politically correct world, you almost have to be concerned with EVERYTHING you do or say. It's an absolute joke, really. I cannot understand for the life of me how a person can join a fire dept only to cry foul (or worse) if a few guys dump a bucket of water over them in an attempt to say "Hey probie, welcome to the club!" It's only my personal opinion, but I don't believe anyone with such thin skin belongs in the fire service. In most cases, they only wind up alienating themselves from the onset anyway, and they wind up being the last person anyone wants to go inside with.

[JBE 328]

You know, flour on the turn outs for misplacing them, shaving cream in the boots, and the bucket I would think would be more of simple, harmless pranks to welcome a person into the fire service as opposed to hazing.

It's where you grab someone, tie them to a back board and leave them on it for a few hours or they fall and bust teeth(as was the case in one lawsuit I saw) That is hazing and wrong.

It's all about knowing where the line is and what crosses that line.

[pjm1733 22]

I agree with you Bob. There is a certain amount of iniating done when joining any orginization, FD, PD, EMS or the Elks. If things are done in a certain manner it can't be considered hazing. If things are done in a sophmoric manner such a fraternity when people are hurt either physically or mentally it crosses the boundaries. I think we are becoming too Politically Correct and the only ones benifitting are the lawyers/

←

In all the departments I have been with over the last 10 years, I have never seen any act of "hazing" or "initiation" going on. Simple, harmless pranks yes. In departments that still do practice hazing, etc. ZERO TOLERANCE should be imposed by the Commisioners/Chiefs. No matter how innocent the act, someone inevitably get hurt in one form or another. This does not promote trust within the department. This only promotes destitution within the ranks. In this day and age where we are watched with scrutiny by the public, we should not allow them the opportunity to cast another bad stone at us. It takes one bad apple to ruin the whole apple tree.

As to punishment. It's a coin toss. I personally would fight for immediate dismissal. Some may say extended suspension in conjunction with the attendace of a class/seminar regarding hazing.

←

WELL STATED

sorry

Edited July 14, 2006 by pjm1733

[Guest]

This is one that should not be disscussed on the fourm, simply because Hazing should be kept secret. We shouldnt be discussing hazing where anyone can see it, you talk about the stuff you do, and do the stuff you do behind closed doors. whether you participate or not, or you have, or have not been hazed is your own bussiness

[firemoose827 324]

what do you consider hazing? Is dumping a bucket of water on a probie hazing?

there is fun and letting members know they are welcome into the "inner circle" and then there is malicious conduct that should not be tolerated.

if your skin isnt thick enough for the fun,  you are in the wrong place.

←

I am glad to see SOMEONE thinks like me. This legal bullsh** has gotten everyone paranoid. Hazing, if done with common sense is a form of welcoming someone. Filling their boots with shaving cream at a drill, dumping water over someones head, dumping them into a portable pond...it has all been part of the fire service ever since the horse drawn engine days.

I agree...if you cant take the heat stay out of the kitchen. TRADITION.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I'm all for having a good time and being able to laugh, anyone that takes any of my classes or works with me knows I'm one of the biggest smart @sses out there. But there is a line no matter how you want to look at it. Just because you may be a bit thicker or in the fire service I like the word dense doesn't always mean something is right.

Some of your comments are exactly what leads the fire service into the problems it has today. Its called change. Soceity changes, what is acceptable changes, people change but of course the fire service should never change. Instead we'll just complain about it instead of making changes in ourselves and who we bring up through the fire service behind us.

Baby boomers do not have the same ideals or values as Generation X.

Generation X has different ideas and values for the generation today that is known as Netsters.

Many baby boobers were looked at by others as being disrespectful and amongst other things for listening to things like rock and roll, and how women's dress changed and how some were not willing to sacrifice for something they didn't believe in (which I still do not like how many veterans were treated for serving their country in Viet Nam, that was bull$hit and those guys deserve the world)

So know that the baby boomers are older, what do they do? They complain about the netsters of today. Get over it, its no different then what many of you experienced as you were younger to. If you choose to b**** about it, instead of doing something about it, keep it to yourself. While the rest of us adapt at how to best utilize and deal with our personnel to keep ourselves sane and to get the most out of them. The only ones that truly do not represent what it is that many describe are military veterans. Do I get frustrated at the younger generation absolutely but I do not count them out. I work with those who display such behaviors like mentioned.

[Guest 1239]

I TOTALLY AGERE WITH YOU YOU CANT BE MORE ON POINT! I WHISH THIS WAS THE PARTICE IN MY DEPT. BUT ITS NOT AND ITS SAD BECAUSE THE KIDS ARE THE NEXT GENARATION BUT NO THE ADULTS WANNA BUT THEM DOWN AND COMPLAN ABOUT EVERYTHING THE KIDS DO WRONG NOW A DAYS!

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I think the topic started off on a bad note...with the word hazing, maybe just asking if anybody had any funny pranks pulled on probies it would not have started with all that legal mumbo jumbo, I think most of the older guys here 20+ years all agree with what was stated many times here....if you have thin skin a firehouse, a REAL firehouse is not for you......times change I know, and I see it in my firehouse....unless you were brought up around the firehouse, and see what goes on, sometimes you get attitudes from guys when they have to mop up and sweep up before they can sit down. New guys "tend" bar...meaning get behind the bar and serve drinks or whatever (soda coffee..I hope this does not start a "bar" thing) But you get my meaning. We sit new guys down and explain to them whats going to happen, and if they have thin skin and want to throw down and fight becasue of it then move on. In my years I have seen some wild stuff, and myself was the only "young" kid in my company for about 2 years till we started getting younger. I put up with some crazy stuff...but again nothing to make me want to get a lawyer and sue COME ON, boy have times changed, but again I was around this prior to joining and feel it made me a stronger person and view things a different way. Most younger kids never had any military experience, I didnt as well, but my Capt. at the time was an ex. Marine....to many traditions are being attacked...sorry for my ramble and rant...but, I think the meaning of the thread has turned into some legal crap.

[firecapt32 282]

Bobby the fish must not be running!!!

All firefighter should have a thick skin and any" introduction" into the fire service should be of the good natured variety. delibert harrassement should be corrected and not allowed.

believe me that is a fine line.

Edited July 18, 2006 by firecapt32

[Guest]

When I joined, there was a lot of good natured ribbing. None of it was with any malicious intent - it was all done with good heart. I would have to compliment the members of my department for being very kind, warm, helpful, and having a very institutionalized sense of humor. So while there is a bit of hazing, its all done with good heart