What is supposed to roll first?

[Guest Fonz1215]

When you have a call and you are a volunteer, when you get to the station, which is supposed to go first, the engine or the ladder?

[tbendick 27]

ENGINE..

How does the saying go..

A properly placed hose line will save more lives then any other life saving techniques

[BFD1054 1,552]

It depends on your departments SOP's. Some depts. will roll a Ladder (Truck Co.) 1st due, depending on its capabilities, such as water tank capacity & pumping capabilities. As for us in Buchanan, we do not have a truck, so we have 1st & 2nd due engines, our rescue & utility. If we have a working fire, Montrose L-8 is usually our mutual aid ladder.

[DMA327 12]

PUMPER all the way

An engine is the first due piece of apparatus in my opinion because hooking a water source is the most important task on the fire ground.

Right before stretching and advancing an initial attack handline that is!

[TRUCK6018 50]

Truck - What good is the truck when you can't get near the house? You hose haulers can always add hose when needed. A stick can't extend beyond it's maximum length.

Additionally, proper truck placement is alot easier when the MPO doesn't foul things up by parking the engine in front of the structure.

[Cutty630 37]

As an engine co. officer i would like to say that the engine should go first BUT.....I think that I'll have to say truck first due to structure related calls. In a paid dept it makes sense that the truck responds first. I have been involved in some drills lately around the area and having the truck locate the fire, vent and then do a quick search is the way to go. Then the engine co. who hopefully has a water supply can then follow the truck and extinguish the fire.(in my opinion only) When your in a volly dept like myself responding to a 10-75 there is so much to do with limited manpower to begin with. The truck usually not to far behind us but it would be so much better if we both rolled out the door together or if the truck responded first. Between two crews all the jobs that have to be accomplished right away would be taken care of. As opposed to the engine crew trying to accomplish all of the duties of two crews. :blahblah:

[HFD23 37]

no offense to any one, i have to say engine, an engine company can always vent vertically or horizontally, while putting water on the fire with sufficient man power. an engine company such as ours carries, roof man's tools, hooks, pikes, and irons along with chain saws, these makes Engine 170 able to function as a fast team or as a truck when responding.. this gives the rig the ability to do a search, vent and put water on the fire, minus the aerial device... a truck company unless it is a quint can't add the water part to extinguish the fire unless its small enough for a can. while the truck company normally does search's and vents, they can;t put large amounts of water on a fire, where as the engine company if forced to can serve a double role venting and searching while the MPO is getting a water source, then the line can be stretched to the fire if your staffing, doesn't allow these actions simultaneously.

[CFD320 35]

Good Topic....

The first answer that comes to my mind is an Engine, of course I’m an Engine man. As HFD 211 said a well trained engine company can very easily perform truck tasks if properly equipped to do so. In my humble opinion all volunteer engine's should be outfitted as "squads" with chainsaw's, search ropes, forcible entry equipment, extrication equipment, multiple sets of hand tools etc. The simple reason being; you never know what apparatus will get out the door first.

Getting a Truck to the scene first surely has its benefits. My department's truck happens to have a 2000 gpm pump and could very easily be used as a combination apparatus. ONLY if hydrants are readily available, we certainly couldn't maneuver the apparatus to draft and perform aerial operations simultaneously.

If the alarm was at a building over 3 stories I would initially want the truck. We all have to remember (myself included) that preservation of life is paramount; saving insured property is a distant second. In my district we have only a few buildings that fit this category but one is a nursing home. For these commercial structures I want the truck first.

In the end there is no correct answer to this question. There are a ton of variables that could make a truck or an engine more useful in different scenarios. One way to help choose the appropriate apparatus is a comprehensive district PREPLAN. We all know what a preplan is and they may be the answer to this question.

[mfc2257 464]

If you are a volunteer dept. and there are enough people to staff the engine, and the truck has a driver, let the truck roll out the door first driver only.... Staff the engine and fill the truck at the scene later. This way the truck gets its proper spot to set up and the engine gets to go to work right away. SOP's that one goes before the other are great, but when the tones drop and some days we have 4 people on the first rig and others we are bumping people off because it seems like the whole department made the first rig the SOP needs to be flexable. We should always strive to have the truck in front of the building. If we don't have career staffing to have a full engine follow a full truck down the road then we have to make it work based on each individual response with the SOP to help guide us not handcuff us to something that might not work one day versus the next.

[CFD320 35]

2 quckies...

Standard operating procedures (SOP's) can't be flexible they are procedures.

Standard Operating Guidelines (SOG'S) can be flexible.

If the 1st due apparatus is an engine, the engineer should not prevent the incoming truck from being in the proper location.

[RWC130 594]

Without a doubt ENGINE CO should always roll 1st. A good driver will place the Engine in a position that would not hinder LADDER CO operations.

In cases where a Fire Department has a LADDER CO with a pump and attack lines then I think it's a judgment call... Obviously your apparatus can function as a pumper if needed.

Good topic!

[Guest HT1250]

Additionally, proper truck placement is alot easier when the MPO doesn't foul things up by parking the engine in front of the structure. 

I'ts always difficult to get a truck or an engine i/f/o the structure when there's 3 cheifs cars and 2 police cars parked in front of it!!!

By the way I think an engine should be first due, get the h2o on the fire quick, ventalate later.

[Task Force 7 65]

The Quint.

[TRUCK6018 50]

Additionally, proper truck placement is alot easier when the MPO doesn't foul things up by parking the engine in front of the structure. 

I'ts always difficult to get a truck or an engine i/f/o the structure when there's 3 cheifs cars and 2 police cars parked in front of it!!!

I won't disagree with you there. Luckily, our chiefs know better than to do something like that. Now the cops....... They'll either park in the driveway and get blocked in (serves them right), or, they'll guarentee marking a hydrant for us (behind their car).

We do have security guards in certain complexs in town that do a great job of parking ifo the effected structure.

By the way I think an engine should be first due, get the h2o on the fire quick, ventalate later.

I understand what you're saying, in order to do an efficient initial attack, venting and water have to be done simultaniously. Say you have something even as simple as a room and contents. While the hose team gains entry to the fire room, the vent team should be in place ready to take out a window so there someplace for the heat and smoke to go. This will let the hose crew do a quicker knock down by not going in blind.

Here's a question. The engine arrives to the fire first and you have reports of persons still in the stucture, do you go in and preform S&R abandoning the hose line? OR do you wait for the truck to do their job while the hose team protects them?

[1075thebox 1]

Qunit - all the way!

[Remember585 815]

Quint - hell yeah!

Our TL44 would be ideal IFO the structure (if it fit) so we could do the engine and truck work without too much congestion.

Mohegan has it right, roll at least one quint to every structural call, best of both worlds on one rig. Its a concept that alot of people fail to grasp, or refuse to.

In our times, if you are looking for manpower to roll an engine and a truck, why not make it easier by staffing only one?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

All volunteer: Its simple, engine rolls first. What puts out fire. You can get to most roofs via ground ladder. You don't know depending on day/time whether or not 2nd due will get out regardless if its a ladder or engine. You need water. The all vollie depts. I've been (or maybe am :wink: a member of have always set up their engines with basic truck company equipment like saws in the event the truck never got out. A current dept. again I'm familiar with in Dutchess, runs a quint first due, however it carries a engine designation being we don't have a quint "number" in the county and to remind people that it has hoses.

If you have a quint, that's great, and 585 hit it on the head, if you use it correctly. Just because you have a truck that has 2 capabilities, you can't do squat without the same amount of manpower to carry out both functions. That is the worst misconception to fall under, if you just have a regular crew of 3 or 4 you have to be one or the other. So sorry 585 I disagree with your manpower issue staff one concept. Richmond, VA FD learned the hard way with their all quint concept. Even with a crew of 6 your stretching your limits of what operations can be done not just safely but effectively.

If your paid/combo, it doesn't matter your first due response will be on the road all at the same time.

[x635 4,066]

A Truck should be the first to roll, after all, how is the Engine company supposed to get in, lol?

[HFD23 37]

i still stand by the fact that a engine company is 1st to roll if you don;t have a quit, and we have rabbit tools, rams, and irons, seth, 170 and 169 will get in...lol

[57crew 1]

Being a trucky i would have to go with ladder...if you have the staffing. It makes it alot essier to preform S&R, Vent, and Locate the fire when the truck is there first and can size up the fire for the engine. BUT if you are a volunteer department with limited members you need the water on the fire so the engine will need to roll first. I think it all comes down the the number of people you have on the call, if you have two engines pulling up at the same time then one can preform truck company operations untill the truck arrives. All in all you need water on the fire a soon as possible, if that means running the engine first because of staffing concerns then do it.

[HFD209 4]

I am a trucky, i would love to say the truck is to roll first. But sorry guys i would have to agree with most of you that the engine goes.

Yeha truck is important for search and stuff, but just b/c your on the engine doesnt mean you cant search as you go. Remember the idea is to put the wet stuff on the red stuff..

[Guest alsfirefighter]

OK guys take it from an experienced roof shepard and let's get one thing squared away: IT'S TRUCKIE.. not trucky. looks to much like yucky.

[TRUCK6018 50]

....roof shepard ..... TRUCKIE.....

Let's not confuse any of this with balcony ballerina. 8)