Family In Back Of Ambulance And The Rye Drowning

[N1Medic 69]

This article regards the drowning of the man at Playland on Tuesday....

From The Journal News 7-6-06

Won Yong Kim's wife, Song Ki Kim, had left the group to take the couple's 5-year-old son on rides but ran back after spotting an ambulance.

When she got closer, Kenny Kim said, she realized it was her husband inside, apparently breathing and conscious. She tried to get into the ambulance for the trip to Greenwich Hospital, he said, but "the paramedics, they said 'no — there's no room inside.'"

A short time later, a police officer brought Song Ki Kim to the hospital, where she was told her husband had died.

"Why, why, why they don't let her in?" he asked about the paramedics. "That's the thing I don't understand. She wanted to go with him so badly. Now she's upset — she couldn't have heard any final word from him."

Scott Moore, administrator of Port Chester-Rye-Rye Brook Ambulance Corps, defended the medic's decision, but wouldn't say exactly why he had refused to let her inside.

"The medic was not comfortable letting her in the back of the ambulance," Moore said. "I'm not going to armchair quarterback his decision. He needs to be focused on that patient and no one else."

I'm sure there's more to the story then the Journal News is letting on....like, um, maybe it was a critical patient, or the wife was hysterical and would have been a hindeance in the ambulance. Some citizen will be reading this, and it will sound like EMS was just being cruel.

[DMA327 12]

To the best of my knowledge... I didn't think family members were allowed to ride in the back of an ambulance while transporting the patient. Anyone know anymore on this?

Edited July 7, 2006 by DMA327

[Guest]

medic made the right call for sure.

[Jybehofd 85]

I know in the CEVO and EVOC class the strong urge you not to carry anyone other then responders of the agency and medic units that you will work with.

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

I'm sure the decision to transport of not to transport a family member is an agency call. Or at least some type of policy is in place covering something like it. I would also think that in the most lax of cases. The agency would leave it up to the crew.

I think it's a good policy NOT to have the family in the bus... one less person freaking out I'm sure helps things out a lot.

[WAS967 97]

I definatly wouldn't have taken her in the back. Front seat maybe and much more likely so. I agree, medic made the right call.

[tunaFish 0]

I'm sure the decision to transport of not to transport a family member is an agency call. Or at least some type of policy is in place covering something like it. I would also think that in the most lax of cases. The agency would leave it up to the crew.

  I think it's a good policy NOT to have the family in the bus... one less person freaking out I'm sure helps things out a lot.

←

I have had the opportunity to ride both in the back of the ambulance with a family member as well as riding in the front seat.

I was not hindering the crew nor was it a life or death situation. I was just trying to make the family member be more at ease knowing I was there. I was never refused by the crew either time. This was in Valhalla.

[CPAGE 2]

From what I see in the clip is the following.

"When she got closer, Kenny Kim said, she realized it was her husband inside, apparently breathing and conscious. She tried to get into the ambulance for the trip to Greenwich Hospital, he said, but "the paramedics, they said 'no — there's no room inside.'"

So now they will try and say the pt died as direct results of the medic or the care that was rendered as he was breathing and conscius when she saw him in the back of the bus. I hope Im wrong but wait to see how she plays this one with some ambulance chasing scumbag.

Just my 2 cents.

Chris

[X615 0]

it's difficult enough working a code in a family's living room with them all around second guessing you & yelling at you to "hurry" & do things their vast medical experience watching tv has told them and it can only get worse locked together in a small box going down the road at 30-40 mph's (or faster). NO FAMILY IN THE BACK! maybe an exception would be a parent or sibling to calm a scared kid & it wasn't life or death but that's up to the individual crew as it should be. this is where a little common sense & a "what if" or 2 go a long way.

[Guest]

I also agree with the crews decision. Not to mention a lack of room but you will get the family member that completely freaks out when the pt. goes downhill, making for a very bad situation in a small space.

[unleashedff248 3]

Hands down right decision. No question about that.

Again, thanks Journal News for making your local emergency responders look bad and publishing inaccurate information.

It's not the first time it's happened and certainly won't be the last.

[roeems87 0]

Having been on the scene, without violating anything we've been told to do (for the investigation and/or HIPAA), the patient was by no means conscious and breathing enough that anyone was going to talk to him. There were 5 EMTs in the back of that ambulance at the time. If that tells you the patient's condition, then that's why she wasn't back there. For the record, the majority of the descriptions from every news agency are flawed as to both the patient's condition and the scene itself. News12's is perhaps the worst of them (imagine that, sucking at another news opportunity... that pathetic excuse for a news organization).

[Guest]

Last I checked, NO ONE OUTSIDE OF EMS AND THE PATIENT ARE TO BE IN THE BACK OF THE AMBULANCE!!!!!!!!!! Unless there are extenuating circumstances that will directly affect the positive outcome of the patient's condition or PD is needed to assist or accompany. In this case, there were none. MEDIC was right. As usual, the Journal News never thinks before they write.

[billwiegelman 1]

I was the one who told her she cant be in the back. She started to climb in hysterical as we were treating her husband, it was quite hectic with 5 people working him, and I told her she couldnt be in there and went back to treatment, getting the doors closed behind her. It was time to roll and we just went. Its unfortunate but the patient is the first priority

[Guest Rich DD]

To the best of my knowledge... I didn't think family members were allowed to ride in the back of an ambulance while transporting the patient.  Anyone know anymore on this?

←

Family members are allowed to ride with the patient, at the disgretion of the EMT, or Paramedic.

If the patient is really sick, the EMT, or Paramedic needs to do their job. Not baby sit an emotional family member.

When I did BLS, I didn't like family members in my bus on critical jobs because of this. Not even in the front seat. We let them ride in the other unit. If the patient is in the BLS bus, then the patient's family member... meaning only ONE, rides in the responding ALS unit with that driver. If they are in the ALS unit with the patient, I put the family member in my bus to keep them from hindering care in the ALS unit.

I totally support that Paramedics decision. The Patient was most likely critical, and they needed to focus care on the patient. And the patient's wife would have been a distraction.

Edited July 8, 2006 by Rich DD

[ex-commish 490]

I was the one who told her she cant be in the back.  She started to climb in hysterical as we were treating her husband, it was quite hectic with 5 people working him, and I told her she couldnt be in there and went back to treatment, getting the doors closed behind her.  It was time to roll and we just went.  Its unfortunate but the patient is the first priority

←

You did the right thing...patient comes first...period !!!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

First and foremost, unless its something that is grossly done wrong Paramedics should never talk bad about another Paramedic, unless it is too another Paramedic and I am very happy that this thread supported our colleagues.

Second, I give credit to those whom were involved to come on here and give their input on the events. Any seasoned provider will know that a crew would never purposely leave a family member behind. It all comes down to the decision of the crew chief or crew.

With that I wanted to add a few things. The decision to allow someone to ride in the patient compartment is a decison that needs to be made at each and every call depending on many of the factors the crew discussed here had to take into consideration. I have allowed family members to ride in the back of the ambulance on critical calls when I was confident that it would not hinder any additional treatments that needed to be accomplished. While I agree the patient always comes first, I also believe in the continueum of care that includes assiting family members through what can be a difficult process. Many of us have seen the changes in the thoughts on this when often family members were never allowed to witness a cardiac arrest being worked or other serious medical issues in a hospital where the patient could die, compared to now where it is exceptable. Again, just as in this case where it was not prudent nor acceptable to allow the family member to ride in the patient area, it must come down reading what is going on in the scene. I'm not much different on any call with family members then I am when doing a pronouncement where I often stay on scene with PD to ensure that any concerns or needs they have are met or at least it is recognize that an attempt is being made and I always ensure that the opportunity for one family member to ride along up front is offerred prior to leaving.

Thumbs up to the crew for agressively trying to save a life and for being misunderstood about why the spouse wasn't allowed to ride in the rear.

[Guest paramedico987]

Right on ALS...

It is ALWAYS the decision of the HIGHEST MEDIAL AUTHORITY on the scene (and one could argue transporting the patient) who gets to make that decision. If I want to allow all 28 members of a family in the back of my bus so be it. Just the same if I don't want to bring a single person, it's my prerogative.

It was, in this case, the Paramedic's decision and he/she doesn't have to defend it to ANYONE.

[Guest]

As some one who has worked for PC-R-RB EMS for quite a few years (no longer there) This is one of the finest agencies in the county ALL the members are the Finest men and woman I have had the pleasure to serve with !. That said I totally agree with the MOS, the right decision was made as usual the Journal news got the wrong end of the stick. All my EMS brothers and sisters know when it comes to EMS related facts/stories they never get it right. People still dont relize that we arent just giving the patient a ride, that the crew is working very hard to save the patients life. I am very proud of this crew,I am sure we all are. THEY DID THE RIGHT THING!.................................BE SAFE AND GO HOME AT THE END OF YOUR TOUR............................

[Guest]

i have always been told that family/friends of the pt must ride in the front and are not allowed in the back. the only time someone other than the pt can ride in the back, is if the mother of an infant or a small child may hold the child while sitting on the strecher

[WAS967 97]

small child may hold the child while sitting on the strecher

No. No. and NO.

I absolutely will NOT allow a patient of mine to be held in a parents arms on a stretcher. My rule is, if they are supposed to be in a car seat in a parent's car, then they are in a car seat in the ambulance. I CRINGE everytime someone tries to say to a parent "you can sit on the stretch and hold your kid".

DON'T DO IT.

[Guest Rich DD]

No. No. and NO.

I absolutely will NOT allow a patient of mine to be held in a parents arms on a stretcher. My rule is, if they are supposed to be in a car seat in a parent's car, then they are in a car seat in the ambulance. I CRINGE everytime someone tries to say to a parent "you can sit on the stretch and hold your kid".

DON'T DO IT.

←

I agree!!!! ABSOLUTELY DO NOT ALLOW A PARENT OR ANYONE ELSE HOLD A CHILD!!!

With all the safety devices on the market today, including the ones already installed in your bus, why would you even consider not properly restraining a child in the proper device?? You not only open your patients, and whom ever else you don't restrain in grave danger, but the Company you work for is at risk. And finally, you are held responsible morally, criminally, and civially.

The next time your in your bus... look around at all the corners they can hit if not restrained. And then think of how much that padding, (that may be on the corners) will actually help should they or YOU go flying into them?

I cannot stess enough how dangerous it is not restraining a patient, or their family.

[Guest]

I am sure I am being redundant....but it is a BAD PRACTICE to allow anyone related to the child in the patient area of an ambulance. Case in point...I was working a pediatric arrest some time ago. Thanks to an inept partner, I ended up with Mom in the back of the ambulance. as the call progressed, I had to pretty muchrestrain Mom as I sank an I/O, intubated, suctioned, and ran the arrest. Mom was worse off when we arrived at the hospital, then when we were at the house.

I know that all the literature shows that it's "good for the grief process" to allow parents to watch resusitative efforts....but not in the back of an ambulance. hospitals have grief councillers, religious advocates, and the like as shoulders for the family....in the prehospital arena, we don't.

[Guest ksneubec]

How often have any of you seen the E.D. let family members into the room when they are treating the patient? MAYBE if its a child and I'm reducing a fracture does Mom get to stay in the room, but otherwise everybody is cleared out. Same principal applies for the back of the bus.

[PC414 0]

"How often have any of you seen the E.D. let family members into the room when they are treating the patient?"

While I don't disagree with the principle noted, to specifically answer your question about the E.D., my experience has been FAR different (Poughkeepsie, NY and Greenfield, MA hospitals). In raising two boys to ages 23 and 19 (and a wife in need a couple of times, too), I was allowed in the E.D. with family members during treatment for three broken bones, a ruptured eardrum, (ruptured) etopic pregnancy (including insertion of catheter and IV) but obviously not surgery following ... glass removal, suture and bone-setting following a fairly serious PIAA which involved loss of consciousness and extrication; and a host of minor ailments, too... During an almost 20 year career in ministry, it frankly wasn't that uncommon (again, Poughkeepsie area hospitals) to allow me to remain with a congregant, either if family wasn't present or they requested same. Clearly NOT (and never) a situation involving recusitation but still a regular presence during E.D. treatment.

I never thought it was unusual. It generally helped at the time, too.

Just my experience and, again, not arguing with the sentiment expressed - especially in the back of an ambulance. Just a couple of "cents."

PC414

[JetPhoto 626]

others in the back of the ambulance for the most part is not a good idea.

BUT, there are cases where it is accepted such as:

A stable patient who speaks a foreign language that you don't understand to help interpret.

A stable child who is frightened to be away from their parent. ( I had a case the other day, a 6 y.o. child had a obvious fracture of the ulna/radial bones. The situation was very stable. The child never even cried!)

Possibly one other reason that I can't think of but that's it. otherwise upfront or not at all (especially if critical and they have no alternative way to get to the hosp.)

That's about it, but at all times it is the medic / crew chief's final word.

[WAS967 97]

I had a call recently where a car hit a tree. The passenger who was injured was the boyfriend of the driver. The car had supposedly lurched forward from a stop and the driver jumped free of the car. The driver had some minor scrapes and wanted to go to the hospital as a precaution to be checked out. The passenger was more severe with facial/head trauma. The girlfriend was placed in the back of the ambulance with the boyfriend and was a basketcase the whole time.

This was a tougher decision as the girlfriend was considered a patient and not just a family member. In retrospect, I'd probably have called a second rig for her.

In a similar scenario: How many times have we transported two injured drivers from an MVA in the same ambulance, and in the course of questioning they start arguing about who's fault it is, all whilst backboarded. Just imagine two people laying secured, next to each other, trying to swat blind at the other in argument. That image always makes me laugh.

Each case we deal with has to be dealt with individually. Not every case fits the perfect scenario. We've all had jobs that make us think "holy crap, now what do I do???" (If you haven't had one yet, give it time, you're still new). It comes down to good judgement and experience to guide you.

Be safe.

Edited July 22, 2006 by WAS967