Riding On Back Step OK During Parades?

[Guest]

I was visiting my brother this weekend in Lake George, and managed to catch the Hudson Valley Parade.

I saw something during the parade that made me cringe. A local department, and the only one in the parade I witnessed doing this, had members on their engine riding the sideboards and back step. Not only is that bad, but they were in dress uniform and not secured to the apparatus in any way.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought it was now universally accepted in the modern fire servce that riding like that is dangerous. My question is how can any chief who legitametely cares about his members allow this to go on? Even at a slow speed, this can be dangerous if a member slips and falls...even at 3-5mph, if a driver isn't paying attention and the member falls below a wheel. You'd think at least one member of this department would speak up, especially given all the officers and ex-officer present- surely someone was aware that this was dangerous.

PARADE OR NOT.....WE SHOULD ALL FOLLOW SAFE PRACTICE!!!

[x129K 1,393]

Generally accepted around here.

However - a few years ago - we had a Chief who was a professional truck driver and outlawed this practice. He said "If you wanna ride on the outside of a truck - become a garbage man."

It is fun, but not smart. Especially since alcohol is so prevalant.

[paratrooper75 41]

Thats ok, I was up there and saw an entire department riding to the parade all over the truck. They had about twenty guys on the top and all around the side and rear steps. They rode like that all the way from their hotel to the parade starting site.

[ex-commish 490]

Thats ok, I was up there and saw an entire department riding to the parade all over the truck. They had about twenty guys on the top and all around the side and rear steps. They rode like that all the way from their hotel to the parade starting site.

←

Bad practice and also violates NFPA standards

[BFD1054 1,552]

Unfortunately, i too saw this first hand. All i could do was shake my head in disbelief. Not a good practice guys, not at all

I saw not just one, but a handfull of companies who were doing this, and at least one that appeared to have non-members even riding the top of the rigs!

Its 2006 ladies and gentlemen, lets use our heads and stop the nonsense. There is no excuse for behavior like that in any fashion. How would you justify someones injuries/death after they fell from a moving fire apparatus?

Lets smarten-up and stay safe!

[ONLOCATION 24]

This happens at alot of Parades in the past and now its becoming an issue?

[Guest]

It's a shame that people don't realize the risks they take until it's to late. Hopefully they wont be the one's that will have to answer for the action's that they have taken just to have a little fun.

[FF402 133]

If I'm not mistaken, this was discussed before when another (or maybe the same?) department after they won a trophy, sped away with people on the roof, hosebed and hanging everywhere else. This bothers me too, you see guys getting hurt and killed everyday, all the training and safety information and all else that goes on, and this still occurs? Have the department officers been living in a cave? I hope they are reading this, they should be ashamed of themselves.

AND, so should any department that sees this happen and doesn't say anything. Let these "firefighters" with wreckless disregard for their and everyone elses safety know it's wrong and not tolerated!

[firecapt32 282]

yes this has been kicked around before. but worth kicking again it wasent long aga a department had a young firefighter fal off the apparatus after the compnay had won a trophy. it was relivent then and it is again today, do not ride on the back step of a apparatus its that simple fast or slow if theres no seat no go. get it!!! lets not lose another firefighter in this country for being stupid---- but then again" you cant fix stupid"

[Guest x2371]

Now we know why this is the topic on the 21st for the Stand down day. Lets make it a point that NO ONE does this at Yorktowns Parade. This is what the stand down is all about to get peole to talk about it and hopefully learn something. Lets hope we all just might have nip it in the but before it happens here!

[res6cue 67]

This happens at alot of Parades in the past and now its becoming an issue?

←

So, just because it has been ok in the past doesn't mean it should be addressed now?

I've actually seen the picture of the dept in question over at firepics.net, and I too cringed when I saw it. This practice needs to end now. I don't care if the truck is going 50 MPH to a call or 5 MPH down main street in a straight line, it's still extremely dangerous. It's not too hard to slip off the side of a truck and fall under the rear wheels or right under the truck following behind. You can't assume the truck would be able to stop in time, or that the driver would even see what happened for that matter.

I was at a parade in Spring Valley years ago where a Ladies Auxiliary member of Nanuet FD was killed along the route after being struck by a chief's truck and crushed against a telephone pole. Our dept was covering for SV that day and we responded to extricate the chief's vehicle off of her, but it was too late. It was the most horrible and tragic thing, and it happened in the blink of an eye. No, she was not riding outboard the apparatus, but the point stands.

[JBE 328]

Nobody should be riding the backstep of a rig, parade or otherwise. If you can't march, ride in the rig with the chauffer. After the parade is over and members are hanging on the rigs like idiots(Which most of us, myself included, are guilty of), this is where it's incumbent on the chief to put a stop to it.

[DaveTFD 0]

i also saw this going on in lake george and tarrytown lost a member not too long ago riding on the back step after a parade. riding on the back step is agianst all standards and practices and i believe its a disqualification during a parade now.

[ny10570 745]

No, she was not riding outboard the apparatus, but the point stands.

←

What point?? That bad sh!t happens. Yeah, ridding back step durring a parade is not safe and it does have acertain amount of risk associated with it, but so does fire fighting. And apparently marching in parades according to your story. While I absolutely agree that ridding back step to alarms and at regular travel speeds is dangerous, I don't see the problem with ridding durring parades. Durring parades we rarely even match a fast walk. If someone does fall off, they're not going to get run over and tehy are not going to get sucked under the truck. They will hit the ground and the truck will continue foreward.

[gmspro 3]

There is a time when years of tradition needs to be tossed out the window. First of all, all this babble about why is it becoming an issue now needs to stop. This practice has always been unsafe; whether riding to alarms or in a parade. It is common knowledge in the public safety community that it is unacceptable and unsafe to be riding on any poriton of apparatus unsecured. To make it even worse, all of these parades also center around alcohol consumption, so that it is safe to assume that those riding the side or rear step, or those on the hose-bed may very well be unable to balance and hold themselves properly.

How about we just play it safe and not allow this! I applaud all of those who have the guts to speak up about this, even if it appears to be a negative hit on the profession they love so much. Those that oppose are just trying to ensure that their friends and fraternal colleagues make it home safely.....

WE ALL HAVE TO LOOK OUT FOR ONE ANOTHER... ON AND OFF THE FIREGROUND!

[res6cue 67]

What point??  That bad sh!t happens.  Yeah, ridding back step durring a parade is not safe and it does have acertain amount of risk associated with it, but so does fire fighting.  And apparently marching in parades according to your story.  While I absolutely agree that ridding back step to alarms and at regular travel speeds is dangerous, I don't see the problem with ridding durring parades.  Durring parades we rarely even match a fast walk.  If someone does fall off, they're not going to get run over and tehy are not going to get sucked under the truck.  They will hit the ground and the truck will continue foreward.

The point that even at slow speeds people can be struck, run over, crushed or killed by vehicles and there may not be much time to react. Marching in a group where there is a buffer between you and the apparatus is a hell of a lot different than hanging on the side or rear of a truck, often times with other trucks following close behind. If you don't see the difference and wish to still argue that it's perfectly alright to do so at a parade, then you go right ahead. Go ahead and assume that someone who falls off the side of a truck can't hit their head on the pavement and black out just long enough for the 5 seconds it'll take for the rear wheels to crush them if they happened to roll inward towards the vehicle, or if they fell off during a turn. But please, spare us the tired old "bad sh!t happens" and "there's a risk in everything" cliches.

[res6cue 67]

By the way, there is probably no WORSE time to ride the outside of the apparatus than at a parade. Why?

1. There is generally alcohol being consumed, which increases reaction time while decreasing good judgment and common sense.

2. The apparatus are usually right on top of each other with guys marching in front and behind and bystanders crowding either side, which severely diminishes the space the driver has to make evasive maneuvers if necessary.

3. The driver has enough to worry about already (like kids running out from the crowd, not running over the guys marching in front of him, not hitting the truck in front of him, keeping the truck at a consistent slow speed, etc) without having to worry about his own yahoos hanging off the side or back of the truck where he generally can't even see them.

4. The surfaces of the truck are all freshly cleaned and polished with slick stuff such as Armor All and metal polish, which when coupled with hard soled parade shoes that have almost no traction, you're just asking for trouble.

5. Most uniforms are a very similar color as the pavement, which makes matters even worse. It would be very difficult for a driver to see a guy laying on the pavement from a quick glance in the mirror, especially if those mirrors are shaking as Series 60 equipped trucks have a tendency to do at low idle.

I'd be very surprised if most parade rules and regulations don't specifically prohibit anyone from riding the outside of the apparatus. I know every parade I've ever been to or was hosted in Rockland, including the RCVFA and HVVFA parades my dept has hosted, expressly prohibited it before, during and after the parade. If you were caught, you were automatically disqualified, no questions asked.

The old school "back in the day..." ignorant and indifferent attitudes really need to come to a grinding halt. Not just for this topic, but for many in the fire service.

Edited June 20, 2006 by res6cue

[IzzyEng4 427]

OK my 2 cents

If you want to ride the back step of a privately owned engine or it is allowed for parades, santa runs, or the dept / district allows it then ride(not meaning to calls).

If you feel that it is a risk yourself then don't.

You make choices you have to live with them, it's not going to change no matter what is said here or until something happens (did happen) with a front line piece and the dept / district says no more. As for antiques, it's in the hands of the owner if someone gets hurt.

[tdc202 0]

Greetings all I haven't posted before but wanted to add my 2 cents on this topic.

I was in Lake George as well this weekend and Saturday morning on Route 9 near the outlets I saw a company with 2 memebers in the hosebed and drinking from what looked like a beer bottle. I couldn't believe what I was seeing but then behind the Engine was the CHIEF of the Dept. in a district vehicle and allowing this to happen. I cannot imagine how a Chief can allow this to happen and it wasn't like the truck was going 5 MPH but going closer to 30 Mph. Firefighters wonder where we get the rep. of doing nothing but drinking beer and being reckless. I know that most Dept's work hard to overcome this image and are professional in the way we conduct ourselves and are serious about what we do............

[Guest]

Seen it done, done it myself. You know, not everything has to be safe to a child-proof level.We're all (okay most of us) adults, we should be able to take care of ourselves in most situations. Really, is it that dangerous to ride that back step during a parade? I don't think so, and this is an awful lot of consideration to give to a topic with marginal relevence. This falls into the "use your head" catagory. There are enough regulations on the books, many of which are there because people can't be trusted to be careful and thoughtful.

[firecapt32 282]

weeeohhh now you guys are humming Dave tfd you say you lost a mamber years ago I to remember thatincident.. nothing has changed are there any SOPS about riding apparatus??

NEVR repete NEVER ride the back step period exclamiation point .! dont do it if you do get thrown out of your department for being stupid. every department should have SOPS or SOG concerning this, if they are not followed eliminate the member.

tought day with the probies--- I come back to earth after graduation.

[ny10570 745]

A few points:

If you are consuming alcohol you shouldn't be ridding on the apparatus for any reason.

How is someone falling off the back of the rig any different from someone falling down in line? We don't even need an injury to drop someone. How many depts have had memebers pass out durring the march? I've seen three and heard of more in my few years.

Why is it we're considered yahoos and idiots when we're ridding on the back step but we suddenly become responsible professionals when we're tasked with fighting fires.

In all of the storys I have read and heard about ff's being crushed under apparatus, none have fallen off durring a parade. I've got getting ready to board the apparatus, operating at an alarm, backing up a rig, and responding to an alarm all covered.

I'm not saying we should be tooling around on the back of apparatus, I honestly couldn't care less what my or any other dpet were to decide was appropriate. We also have this wonderful penchant for making excuses for the behavior of idiots. Why is it an accepted fact that members are gonna be drunk and doing stupid things? More of what bothers me is that a topic like this gets so much attention when it is truely a non issue. FF's are not getting hurt by apparatus at parades. However we are dying from accidents on the way to alarms and from cardiac related problems at the same rate every year.

[Guest]

Recently i was in the Westchester area for a parade. The rigs were clean the men looked good, the bands sounded amazing. I also noticed trhat there were fire fighters riding on the back of rigs on top of hose beds on top of cabs and what not. I think this is a disgrace to what we stand for. What about safety? what about osha? why arent chiefs regulating against this? are they the ones allowing it? i think if we want to call ourselves professional volunteers we should start acting like them. i understand its a long walk from the parking lot to the parade line up point. Thats why most places have shuttles or use chief vehicles to move man power around. not apparatus that have enough seat belts for 8 but seem to carry 12 in the cab 6 on the hose bed and 4 on the back step while the driver cruises through the hosting departments villiage looking for the line up point. its an accident waiting to happen. We are suppose to be the safe ones. the examples the leaders.

[ex-commish 490]

Recently i was in the Westchester area for a parade. The rigs were clean the men looked good, the bands sounded amazing. I also noticed trhat there were fire fighters riding on the back of rigs on top of hose beds on top of cabs and what not. I think this is a disgrace to what we stand for. What about safety? what about osha? why arent chiefs regulating against this? are they the ones allowing it? i think if we want to call ourselves professional volunteers we should start acting like them. i understand its a long walk from the parking lot to the parade line up point. Thats why most places have shuttles or use chief vehicles to move man power around. not apparatus that have enough seat belts for 8 but seem to carry 12 in the cab 6 on the hose bed and 4 on the back step while the driver cruises through the hosting departments villiage looking for the line up point. its an accident waiting to happen. We are suppose to be the safe ones. the examples the leaders.

←

Very good point. As a chief I will never allow anyone to ride the back step or hose bed. Those days are long gone as far as I am concerned.

[gss131 212]

what kind of rigs were they on,what light bars and what color were they painted??

[Guest WolfEMT]

What does that matter?

[FirNaTine 370]

I'm glad someone brought up this topic. While I did not see this prior to a parade, I certainly saw it afterwards around 11:30 that same evening. An antique piece of apparatus was driving south on Boston Post Rd. with only 2 hardly visible tail lights working, 2 guys riding the backstep, a couple more in the hosebed and 2 in the front seat. What made matters worse is on occassion someone would hit the Qsiren. This occured from Harbor Island in Mamaroneck all the way down thru New Rochelle and believe it or not the chauffer was wearing a white hat. Not to mention the apparatus, slightly crossed the double yellow more than once. I along with my passengers couldn't believe what we were seeing, but the icing on the cake was when one of the backsteppers, grabbed his a** cheek and notioned to the vehicle behind him. Talk about unproffessional and irresponsible. I think most of us can figure out what Dept. they are all members of without me having to actually rat them out. I just hope they read this and remember we're always in the public eye, so please try and act proffesional 24/7, because somebody's always watching, especially after you've hoisted a few. And guys say Dennis Leary's show Rescue Me is a disgrace and embarassment to our proffession. If you ask me, it's right on the money. STAY SAFE Bros.

[res6cue 67]

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=11897

Edited July 8, 2006 by res6cue

[CAM502 6]

what kind of rigs were they on,what light bars and what color were they painted??

←

?????

[WAS967 97]

Tell the cops to pull them over and give em a ticket.