Personal Vehicles to the Scene

[VistaFD126 0]

one of my biggest pet peves is having personal veichles at the scene of an fire or EMS calls, I have a hard time trying to get this across to many of the members of our department as to why this is such a bad idea, now we all know the dangers in, but can anyone tell me any stories of why personal veichles at the scene was a hinderance, so I can realte to real stories as oppsed to what I can pretict happen, any other supporting or non supporting ideas out there I would liek to hear too, thanks

[JetPhoto 626]

one of my biggest pet peves is having personal veichles at the scene of an fire or EMS calls, I have a hard time trying to get this across to many of the members of our department as to why this is such a bad idea, now we all know the dangers in, but can anyone tell me any stories of why personal veichles at the scene was a hinderance.

←

My department's (fire / ems) allows volunteer's to go to the scene. On the fire side one large reason is our commissioners don't feel we don't need anything more than a 2 man cab. We have instructed our firefighters to use thier heads when parking and to park as far off the road and away from the scene as possible.

On the EMS side, an EMT is allowed to meet the bus on the scene if they are not already in the building.

[Guest paramedico987]

please... list these dangers for us...

I volunteered with LVAC for almost 6 years and never ran into a problem with personal vehicles on a scene... if it needs to be moved it is moved and allowing emergency personell to arrive via their own vehicle allows for significantly reduced response time.

[Guest]

I think allowing personal vehicles to the scene is a major advantage in certain districts. In my district we cover 33 Sq. miles and getting from one end of town to the other can take 20 minutes. Having personnel respond directly to the scene can be of great help if they live closer to the scene than the firehouse.....of course getting our apparatus there is important too. But, I can agree that too many personal vehicles can clutter up the scene....our IC's do a good job of directing personal vehicles to areas far enough away from the scene.....I guess it all depends on the individual districts.

[trauma74 111]

Here in my VAC we do allow members to take their POVs to the scene. The only roadway that my members are not permitted to take their vehicles on is the major highway (State Route 17) that runs thru our district. Once in a while, mostly for a major MVA myself or another line officer will allow a member(s) to respond on the highway. Myself and my 2 Lts are permitted to take our POVs anywhere because we have our vehicles equipped and certified by the NYS DOH as Emergency Ambulance Service Vehicles (fly cars).

The FD here in my town lets any member respond to the scene in their POV and they have the same rule we do with responding onto the highway. With EMS all of my EMTs carry a medical bag in their car, so if they arrive on scene before the bus they can begin patient care. The FD members on the other hand do not have water etc in their POVs. There have been plenty of times when one of them rolled up on the scene of a fire and stood there and we were helpless while someones house was burning down.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Our FD allows our members to respond to the scene, and normally does not cause problems. Like said before, if a car is in the way, it gets moved. We cover around 40 sq miles, and if you are on the other side of the district, there is no way you are makeing a truck.

[Remember585 815]

I know this discussion has been here before, but I can't find it.

Personal vehicles to the scene is almost, in my area, a given. In our FD, apparatus have to have a crew before responding unless approval is given from an IC to respond with less (then 3).

BUT, due to an ever-increasing cost of living in our little village, more and more personnel are moving just outside of the Village line and are unable to make the rig. We do, however, have an SOG that states all personal vehicle are to be parked at least one block from a scene, and all cars are to park on the same side of the road. This doesn't always happen, but the POV issue hasn't really been a problem for us.

In my VAC, most members report to the rig, while others can and will go to the scene. We all pretty much know which end of town everyone is coming from, so those of us (and there's a lot of us) with equipment in our POVs will go to the scene if it is on our way to the Corps and start care while someone else gets the rig.

For highway responses, I personally feel that no POVs should be there, but since neither place I belong to says anything about it.....I and others will continue to do it.

[sbvfd596 2]

Just like most of your departments, mine has similiar policies. I'm not excally sure what they are, so i'm not going to dig myself into a deep hole by stating the wrong thing. But I do have 2 stories positive stories about pv's at a scene. At the last structure fire I went to I parked over a mile away, and when overhaul was almost over, a LT in my dept. told me to go get my truck, and bring it directly to the scene, so that all the hose could be brought back to the station, because the engine was stuck in the driveway. This past winter the engine was out on a call, and we got a call for a child who had fallen through the ice out, so my chief put the rescue sled in his truck and got it to the scene. Althought by the time we got there the girl was safely out of the water, it still counts as a good thing for personal vehicles.

[HFD750 6]

My department we don't allow PV's at car accidents. But for a large fire we do allow PV's as long as there out of the way and our members understand this. Car accidents I look at it like this we already have an engine, chief vehicles, our rescue,medic's, and police vehicles why make it anymore dangerous or confusing with PV's. On highway calls I-95 or the HRP no PV's at all. I rather have everyone respond to HQ and we will dispatch what is needed. It's all about saftey and PV's on the highway's,chances are the highway's are backed up due to the accident so they won't get there anyway. If it's a working fire most of our members respond to the firehouse and if everything left the house then they can roll in there PV's.

Our problem is more with our local police dept. then anything else. They seem to think there the Fire dept,As well as the police dept. Very frustrating sometimes so were trying to work together but you know how that can go. Ego's clash. As a chief I try to work with them but my main concern is my men and women of the fire dept, not the police dept. I'll stop there I can go on forever about our problems with our police Dept.

[KelliPVAC 32]

In our VAC members are not allowed to take their own vehicle to the scene. The only members that are allowed are the officers. It is easier having the crew show up together in an ambulance. Another reason is not all of our members are EMT's, so it would not help to have the ambulance beat the EMT there, and then waiting for them to show. We have not had any problems with this.

[res6cue 67]

Our dept generally allows POVs to respond to scenes, but with clear guidelines and restrictions in place. First off, probationary members are never permitted to respond to a scene, they must respond to the station even if that means passing the scene. Secondly, everyone (especially apparatus drivers) is strongly encouraged to respond to the station to get the apparatus out first and foremost. Members are permitted to respond directly to a scene only if they are in the immediate area or will pass the scene. They are to park their POV well away from the scene and any potential apparatus staging areas. No POVs are permitted to respond to incidents on the Palisades Interstate Parkway or in the village of New Square, or to the scene of any extrications.

Our system works out well for the most part, mainly because the members don't abuse or take advantage of it. If they do, they're either officially disciplined as the case warrants, or they just get the requisite rash of sh!t from the senior members and learn the right way.

Personally, in general I don't like having POVs respond to incident scenes, unless it's an officer doing so. Our members are not issued personal SCBA and often times have their gear in the firehouse, so they wind up on the scene "naked" and not able to do much good. Even worse, if confronted with a rescue situation, they may feel compelled to act quickly, and without the proper gear, they obviously put themselves at tremendous risk. Apparatus drivers going to the scene means one less truck will get out, which does no one any good, especially if no other drivers show up. It has happened, and the member had to get back in their POV to get a truck out, wasting all sorts of time. The bottom line, in my opinion, is that most times having a guy show up with no gear, no radio and no equipment does no one any good at all. I'd rather have them get there 3 minutes later with the truck, properly geared up and equipped and ready to do his job.

Seriously, in 17 years I've really never seen a guy respond to the scene and make much difference in the outcome, and that includes myself. I've responded to the scene plenty of times, even WITH my turnout gear, and felt absolutely useless. It might make the caller feel good seeing someone there quickly, but that goes both ways. There is nothing worse than standing there waiting for the apparatus to arrive when you have a working incident. Especially when you have the victim right next to you.

[Guest]

In my FD they do not allow POV's to the scene unless it is a major structure fire and they are parked far away. The reason for this is back in the 90's a call went out for a man down in his backyard, a emt was nearby and she went right to the scene. It turns out the man fell of the balcony when he was pushed by his girlfriend or wife, and she now had a gun pointed at him. The emt walked right into that situation will no way to call for help. She had to wait for other emergency personnel to get there.

[ajsbear 11]

Years ago I was living on LI and was at the Nassau Training Center when the plane from AVIANCA went down in the Oyster Bay area. Those are narrow roads and with all the POV's that went directly to the scene and the police cars as well it was extremely dificult to get the rigs and ambulances close to the scene where they were needed. I know a couple of the parked vehicles were cliped by the rigs. While the amount of help there was great the cars hindered the approches. Many of our response areas have narrow and still worse dirt roads with no place to pull off out of the way. Yes there are driveways but many times we need these to turn rigs around.

If the incident is large enough and you have to dirve directly, park away from the area and walk in. I'm sure with all the rigs coming in one of them can make room.

[Monty 35]

I think the biggest issue with POV's is personnel accountability. It is a lot easier when you have crews on trucks to know who is at the scene, and to apply ics. I'm sure it can be done with crews responding directly to the scene - but it's a lot more difficult.

Likewise, OSHA, 2 in 2 out, IDLH etc ... now I know a lot of people consider this a pain in the a**, ignore it completely etc, etc. But .... it was put in place for a good reason. Imagine going to a Hazmat / CO call or something being first on scene and going to render aid - and no-one knows you are there .....

As I said before, I'm sure this can be overcome with responding directly to the scene but it takes a lot more discipline, restraint and training.

[Eagle24 2]

regarding EMS, if it is quicker for an EMT to go to the scene(in his personal vehicle, with a jump kit) and a seperate driver to get the rig-why not do it? Either way the EMT is responding to either the HQ or the scene, and that's why you get those nice green lights that allow you to break absolutely no traffic laws. . .If people are going to hurry to get to the scene, they're going to do the same to get to the HQ-the difference being X#mins. response time to the pt. Everyone here knows 99% of the time a few minutes won't make a difference, but every 1% it will...personal radios are very important for coordination because if nobody goes to get the rig ...and obviously don't be an idiot and park your car wherever the entrance/exit for the ambulance would be. . .

[Guest]

going to the scene is not so bad if youo have respponsiblie people and park away from the scene, though we know this doesn't happen the way we want it to. ome people just don't get it.

[ajsbear 11]

Monty brings up a good point. Besides clogging the roads around a scene, acountability. Unless everyone entering the scene reports to the IC or Accountability officer to give his or her tags how do you know who;s there? If you evacuate a building, is everyone out? If an officer sees you before you get a chance to report in and you now have a task but you never reported in personally to the IC what happens if the job goes to s&^#t? Only 1 or 2 people know your there. I know several departments who admit to accountability problems with responding members to the scene.

[Guest]

I can understand emts needing to go to the scene quickly, but in our department (same as the first posters) almost all emts goto scene and no one goes to HQ, we then end up with an ambulance rolling with no emts on board. we also have to drive their cars back to the firehouse because some ride to the hospital. ( do you think if we got into a crash in someone else POV the insurance company would pay for injuries or damages?, i don't think they will cause only the trucks are insured ussally right?)

First no-one knows who is on scene or who is on there way because emts do not get radios (same for firefighter who go direct). Second not riding with an emt in an ambulace just doesn't make any sense to me, not only do we look dumb as hell when we come to a serious call with no EMTs already at scene or in our bus (has happened before a few times), we just hope someone is there. This could be fixed with assigning some emts to goto the HQ and one or two to goto scene or perhaps duty days im not sure tho, and other note, it just seems an ambulance is not an ambulance when there are no emts on board, i mean what if we wittness an MVA or other random medical call on our way to the first call wtf are we supposed to do? ask them if they can stop having a heart attack untill the emts who took there povs to the scene can respond?

Medical calls are somewhat hindered but there are some benefits for them (quicker response etc..) but I still think an ambulance should ride with at least one or two emts on it and only a few emts should goto scene and if you take your car there you take it back. (what do you think?)

Fire calls are where no POVs should be allowed expect for special occasions (big scene where all the trucks are out the door and you have no other way of getting to the scene, etc..) In our dept there are two types of people, fire gear or blue jeans (im pretty sure you know what i mean) and usually the blue jeans take their POVs to the scene and either go in to building BY THEMSELVES (this is even for CO calls) and walk all around the house looking for fire (or something idk what the hell they do im never with them) or wait outside for the people wearing fire gear and scba who have tools and equipment. accountbillty and safety becomes an issuse with POVs, like stated above, if a scene is unsafe because somebody has a gun or its a hazmat scence how is the person gonna radio for help, they are gonna drive to the FH now to get s***. accountbilty is a problem because POVs often blend into the scenes and you don't know who's cars are going to scene. Lucky we have a small town where we know who's cars are who's so we can have some idea who might be inside or on scene, but do you think im going to be looking for firefighter bobby’s pickup truck when there is a head on collision with injuries and bobby is it in the woods dieing because he was the target of a hit and run?

POVs have some benefits to some situations (like mentioned above you had other calls or had to get equipment packed up) but overall i think POVs are dangerous, a nuisance, unorganized way of response and are one of the things that used to be ok in the fire service but is on its way out.

P.S sorry for any grammatical or spelling mistakes I went to john jay lol

EDIT: fixed some spelling mistakes so you don't think im that stupid

Edited June 19, 2006 by nomp3s4u

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Here is a true story from years ago, whenever this subject is brought up I use this example of it being a bad idea to bring your own vehicle anywhere near the fire scene.........one snowy winter night a Dept. near me who runs 1 or 2 guys in the rig and everyone else storms the scene in their own cars had a working house fire, ripping, now picture a residential side street after a good snowfall....if a plow gets down the street once or twice it's alot, in this particular case the plow did make it down the street, but because of the snowbanks caused by the plow the width of the street was even smaller then normal. The rigs getting to the scene made it in ok, and even the mutual aide. But when the utility gas and electric made it to the scene about an hour later, between all the members cars and buffs they could not make it anywhere near the scene. It was that congested. They needed to get the electric truck closer to the scene so 3 or 4 members had to move their cars, what a mess it was...backing out, getting stuck, having to help push 1 car that got stuck spinning the wheels, now of course this is a worst case example but it shows what can happen.

[JBE 328]

There were quite a few times where I responded to the scene in Lake Carmel because I was closer to the scene than I was to the firehouse. Mind you, this was for EMS runs ONLY. I would advise P-911 I was responding to the scene(as an EMT) and handed my keys to someone who could take my car back to the firehouse. I think it has to do with the situation, especially when it comes to fires. You're not helping if you're standing there in turnouts and there's no equipment on scene. Different story, obviously if you're Fire Police.

[Guest]

My department's (fire / ems) allows volunteer's to go to the scene. On the fire side one large reason is our commissioners don't feel we don't need anything more than a 2 man cab. We have instructed our firefighters to use thier heads when parking and to park as far off the road and away from the scene as possible.

On the EMS side, an EMT is allowed to meet the bus on the scene if they are not already in the building.

←

SO HOW are yoir men going to get the a house fire if you dont want then to drive there cars to the call? if your commissioners think that a 2 man cab is ok, then lets see the next time there"s a house fire in your town and theres guys hangin out at the firehouse and u only have room 4 two guys. do u flip a coin. look in the rearview mirror and see the 15 p.o.v behind you. everything in my dept. is 10 man cab.......... now would u rather have 10 guys with u on a rig with u pulling up to a fire or 2 guys.

[smwells 7]

In Putnam Valley VAC we cover 42 sq mi of area.. it is prefered that you go to HQ but it isnt practical if you are closer to the call..

Many of the EMTs carry O2 and basic supplies to get started at a scene prior to the ambulance arrival. All members are trained on First Aid and CPR. so in the event they respond direct to a scene or the ambulance reponds driver/attendant to meet the EMT on scene they can start care.

Our members are told to tell inform the dispatcher "where they are responding to" HQ, Scene, or possibly to have the rig pick them up enroute leaving the POV in a secure location. this also allows the balance of the crew to know who they are waiting for before responding.

The rule is that all POV at a scene must be parked out of the way,left with keys in them.. so they can be moved or secured in the event you ride the bus to the hospital.

Good idea to keep a spare key on you, in case they secure your car.. Last thing you need is to get to your POV at a scene and be locked out!

[Guest]

Having personal vehicles at the scene seems to be largely due to how the department is structured. As Vista is all volunteer, it seems to make sense to have people respond to the firehouse to roll apparatus. Maybe a limited response in personal vehicles makes sense. For example, line officers could respond to the scene if only to check out the incident and determine a course of action. Or, for you medical calls, have an EMT who is a neighborhood responder go to the scene to begin patient care.

Our department is combination, so the vast majority of volunteers drive their vehicles to the scene. This works to our benefit because we can get manpower on the scene faster. As we can have numerous vehicles park on scene, we have standard operating procedures that clearly define how firefighters should respond in the personal vehicles, where they should park, etc. The biggest risk is that personal vehicles clog the streets and make it difficult for emergency vehicles to pass. To avoid this we do things like park on the same side of the street as the incident, do not park on the street in front of the house. Instead park a house or two away. Park on a side street if possible. Things like that.

[Guest]

Where I vol. all members are to go to the house. no one is aloud to keep their gear with them either. we have a small district of only 5 sq miles so its not to bad. our main reason for members to come to the house is accountablity. to many people can sneak in and out of an incident and it is hard to keep track of everyone.

[Guest]

Just a couple of points regarding your comments on the EMS side of this issue. In my VAC we have a call in system so everyone knows how many are responding to scene and how many to the building which works well. This makes it so the driver knows what to expect when he gets there, and possibly on a rare occasion call out for mor emembers. Second of all NYS law covers you in your pov from the second the pager goes off until you get home from the call. Both responding to and coming home from a call you are covered and your insurance cant go up. Lastly in regards to your comment about what happens if we witness an MVA on the way with no EMTs it should never be an issue because we cant go anyway, its called abandonment. Even if the call is for a broken leg and we see a man cardiac in the middle of the street you have to call mutual aid for the man in cardiac arrest and go to the broken leg which was what you were dispatched to.

I can understand emts needing to go to the scene quickly, but in our department (same as the first posters) almost all emts goto scene and no one goes to HQ, we then end up with an ambulance rolling with no emts on board. we also have to drive their cars back to the firehouse because some ride to the hospital. ( do you think if we got into a crash in someone else POV the insurance company would pay for injuries or damages?, i don't think they will cause only the trucks are insured ussally right?)

First no-one knows who is on scene or who is on there way because emts  do not get radios (same for firefighter who go direct). Second not riding with an emt in an ambulace just doesn't make any sense to me, not only do we look dumb as hell when we come to a serious call with no EMTs already at scene or in our bus (has happened before a few times), we just hope someone is there. This could be fixed with assigning some emts to goto the HQ and one or two to goto scene or perhaps duty days im not sure tho, and other note, it just seems an ambulance is not an ambulance when there are no emts on board, i mean what if we wittness an MVA or other random medical call on our way to the first call wtf are we supposed to do? ask them if they can stop having a heart attack untill the emts who took there povs to the scene can respond?

Medical calls are somewhat hindered but there are some benefits for them (quicker response etc..) but I still think an ambulance should ride with at least one or two emts on it and only a few emts should goto scene and if you take your car there you take it back. (what do you think?)

Fire calls are where no POVs should be allowed expect for special occasions (big scene where all the trucks are out the door and you have no other way of getting to the scene, etc..) In our dept there are two types of people, fire gear or blue jeans (im pretty sure you know what i mean) and usually the blue jeans take their POVs to the scene and either go in to building BY THEMSELVES (this is even for CO calls) and walk all around the house looking for fire (or something idk what the hell they do im never with them) or wait outside for the people wearing fire gear and scba who have tools and equipment. accountbillty and safety becomes an issuse with POVs, like stated above, if a scene is unsafe because somebody has a gun or its a hazmat scence how is the person gonna radio for help, they are gonna drive to the FH now to get s***. accountbilty is a problem because POVs often blend into the scenes and you don't know who's cars are going to scene. Lucky we have a small town where we know who's cars are who's so we can have some idea who might be inside or on scene, but do you think im going to be looking for firefighter bobby’s pickup truck when there is a head on collision with injuries and bobby is it in the woods dieing because he was the target of a hit and run?

POVs have some benefits to some situations (like mentioned above you had other calls or had to get equipment packed up) but overall i think POVs are dangerous, a nuisance, unorganized way of response and are one of the things that used to be ok in the fire service but is on its way out.

P.S sorry for any grammatical or spelling mistakes I went to john jay lol

EDIT: fixed some spelling mistakes so you don't think im that stupid

←

[IzzyEng4 427]

In my city we can respond to calls in our pov's. Many members don't live close to their stations, such as myself, and 7 out of 10 times have to respond to the scene. We all try to get to the house first, especially if it is a highway call. At my company, we tell the new members that you parks well away, at least a block on on a side road not effecting the fire scene so responding apparatus can get into the scene or take another water source. The other comapnies in the department do the same. We do have a few people that "ignore" to say the least, this and it is dealt with each time and they get repremanded by the company officers before it gets to the chiefs. Another good resource is our Fire Police unit. Not only do they divert the traffic from the scene, many members watch out for the incomming pov's and they tell us were to go, effectively maintaining a direct route for other apparatus into the scene and keeping pov's and other non essential apparatus out of the way.

I don't have a problem with responding to the scene but you have to use your head while drving and also consider going to the firehouse first. Some departments it works others it doesn't.

[DOC22 1]

In my department we can respond with pov's to anything as long as it is not on I684. Calls on the Interstate, only apparatus and Chiefs' vehicles respond. Drivers have been instructed to wait for a crew before responding. For the calls on loacl roads, most of the time parking isn't a problem although once in a while t becomes necessary to remind people to stay on the same side of the road, etc.

[truckie45 1]

My department allows us to respond to the scene in our personal vehicles, we carry are gear in are cars. The Career Fire Fighters repond with the rig. I have run into some problems due to a few FFs parking on the fire block, But if it was an issue it would be moved ASAP. Everyone needs to work together and park in a safe anf out of the way condition. If we had to drive to the fire house to respond in the truck our response time would be terrible. Be safe brothers.

[Guest]

It's a general rule of thumb, don't respond to calls in your POV. Many departments/Districts enforce this, and stirnly. Others, loosen the lease a bit and allow members to respond to scenes in their POV's.

Remember, when responding to a call in your POV, sometimes you let your adrenalin get the best during the course of your response. There are documented incidents where Firefighters and EMT's, while responding to alarms, have become involved in motor vehicle accidents. Some times the accident wasn't of their doing. But too many times, it was because of rash decision making and the "heat of the moment" which caused them for that one second, to deviate from state vehicle and traffic laws, just so they could get to the call fast that got them into a mess.

Many departments refuse members to respond to alarms in their POV's for that reason alone. Others tack on the rationale that having added POV's to a scene causes a "clutter" thereby hindering apparatus to be properly placed and directed.

When I was an EMS Captain several years ago, I was faced with such a predicament several times. My resolution to that was such......If you have to bypass the scene to get to the station, then stop at the scene. But be prepared to render patient care. So make sure you have a BLS bag with you and have the P.O. on the scene let EMS know that you're there so that the bus doesn't have to wait till the end of time. Never bypass the station to respond to a call. Very short, sweet and simple.

The fire district that I am in now has that rule really cut and dry. Since we do not have our own EMS and rely on three seprate ambulance corps the rule is this. Only the "on call" CFR/EMT/Medic may respond to aided cases in their POV. This is allowed because we are provided a BLS bag, O2, AED and a radio. By doing so, it allows the "on call" person to initiate adequate care prior to the arrival of EMS and to decide id the rescues from our two stations are required.

For departments/districts that cover a vast amount of ground, this proves invaluble to the way that initial emegent medical care is delivered.

For departments/districts which cover a smaller area and are more urbanized, responding to the station seems more prudent and less of a potential liability to the responding party.

In conclusion, no matter what you decide. Make sure you are doing so with the expressed permission of your Chiefs/Commissioners. Obey ALL traffic rules while responding. You blue/green light a courtesy light, not an emergency light. And if you get to the call, make sure you are going in with the equipment/gear necessary to negotiate through the call. You don't wanna be standing there with a thumb up your rear end while someone is suffering just so you could beat the bus/truck to the call.

Use your heads. Be safe. Remember, everyone is watching us. We are defamed more than we are acclaimed.

Edited July 26, 2006 by REDOKTBR

[ex-commish 490]

Our dept generally allows POVs to respond to scenes, but with clear guidelines and restrictions in place.

←

That's the key. If you have and enforce guidelines I believe it can work. My dept is all volunteer so all members are required to respond to the station. If you miss the rigs and it is the "big one" we will come and get you. If it is not, we handled it with what we had.

I could see responding to the scene in combo departments where you have fulltime firefighters rolling when the call comes in.