Avoid The Panic Button

[hudson144 150]

Through proper sizeup and a complete report from the interior crews the panic button can be avoided, The old saying that it is easier to turn crews around than to make up for lost time does stand true but in the initial stages of the incident the IC should evaluate the situation and communicate with his/her crews before turning an incident into a real cluster ****. Take a breathe or 2 and think about what is going on,it appears that lately the whole portion of the county needs to get involved in some minor incidents and its really not needed.Am I monday night quarterbacking? nah-it might be monday night common sense!!! be safe!

[Guest]

I was thinking the same thing the other day.

I think a lot comes down to the IC's experience commanding incidents and confidence in doing so. I see the trend in calling a bunch of departments in for a room and contents, and find it sad we can't handle the simplest jobs in house anymore, even on weekends when there's plenty of manpower around. Now, given some departments call because they need a water source, thats acceptable, but you should be able to take care of a room and contents with YOUR first engine and truck.

IC's need to get a complete and accurate idea of what is going on before calling in the calvary.

Another aspect of the situation.....since MVA's are one of the concerning dangers in the fire service today, why put more vehicles on the road then neccsary?

How can we resolve this situation? Is there too much leadership in some agencies and scenes and not enough calls for the leaders to get the experience and confidence needed to command? Do some communties need more manpower? Or is this increase in utilization of mutual aid the modern, "efficient" way to increase manpower?

[Guest]

Your absolutely right ZeerR, in your last statement. Utilizing M/A is now the modern and practical way of supplementing a Depts. inadequate staffing levels. This is not only occurring in the Volunteer Depts. but also in many of Westchester Cntys. Career Depts.. Gee, this argument seems all too familiar?

Edited June 7, 2006 by capt.415

[firecapt32 282]

do you think it just might be coming from lack of experience on the officers part. Are we electing inexperienced officers-- wait i better say lack of training on the officers part. I know I will be hearing from a lot of you guys on that but-- what qualifications are there. Career officers attend First line supervisors class ,one month of training in new york city-- you cant ask for better training then that. the Vol service on the other hand dosent have any, I am not repeate NOT making this a VOL VS Career. It all has to do with training and experience.

lets face it Career Officers are in the position a lot longer, there for get more experience, there is mandatory training(Career 100 Plus )every yr. Vol officers get elected every yr or every 2 yrs.

can you tell I have had a long day with the probies graduation is june 30.

[ex-commish 490]

do you think it just might be coming from  lack of experience on the officers part. Are we electing inexperienced officers-- wait i better say lack of training on the officers part. I know I will be hearing from a lot of you guys on that but-- what qualifications are there. Career officers attend First line supervisors class ,one month of training in new york city-- you cant ask for better training then that. the Vol service on the other hand dosent have any, I am not repeate NOT making this a VOL VS Career. It all has to do with training and experience.

lets face it  Career Officers are in the position a lot longer, there for get more experience, there is mandatory training(Career 100 Plus )every yr. Vol officers get elected every yr or every 2 yrs.

can you tell I have had a long day with the probies  graduation is june 30.

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I think it is both lack of experience and electing inexperienced people to fill positions. I have always been an advocate for officer training. Firefighter training was stepped up a bit with FF1. Why not officer training??? The classes are there. My biggest peev is people who are put into positions to train others with no formal instruction on how to conduct training. It happened to me years ago but I decided to take the necessary classes to help me do the training and it was a big help.

We need to catch up to the times...anyone agree...disagree...

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I agree chief. I also feel that how you are going to be as an officer is going to be influenced by whom you are around early in your career, what your system is like and what officer you looked up to along the way. If you are in a system that does not allow your officers to expand and learn how to lead and make decisions, then you are going to have executive level officers whom feel the need to consistently do that or to have to watch over everything instead of running the big picture.

I once read a article that stated the most important person on the fireground is the first arriving officer. (Whether you have a colored hat, means nothing, if your riding in the "officers" seat then you are the officer at that moment.) The first 20 seconds of decisions that first arriving officer makes often dictates the next 20 minutes on the fireground. Those next 20 minutes often dictates the next 2 hours. Decisions need to be made on solid experience, reliance on training and communication. The worst decision a officer can make is based on hunches.

Then there is always the flip side, when you hear a normally calm person with anxiety...something is wrong.

Great topic Hudson. I know we've talked about this in person often, but it is very therapuetic. lol.

PS...I want my name tags back.

[Guest]

So long as decisions are made on the side of FF. safety, even if it is a hunch, you can't go wrong. Like the old saying goes, if your going to error, error on the side of safety.

[firecapt32 282]

ther should be more of you guys jumping in on this subject come on men--lets hear form you. ALS all i know is I dont have them.

[ny10570 745]

I find it interesting that alot of people just write this problem off to a lack of experiance, and just leave it at that. In many depts in our area that experiance is just not going to come in time. Fires are down and our experianced members are getting older and moving on. So the next best thing is training. Training is great, and way too many people need more of it, but I don't care how many classes you take or how many hours you spend in training fires when the sh!t hits the fan people react differently. The sensory over load you get from a ripping fire is more than enough to phase someone. So if the biggest mistake an officer makes is to call out half the county for a 15 minute knockdown then I'm happy. Sorry about the rambling, but this seems like a problem that attempting to fix could create a more serious problem of under staffing jobs.

[johnvv 20]

Many of us (including me) are quick to blame individuals who don't seek out the training that is sadly needed for the Officer positions they fill in their departments. But I don't blame untrained fire officers completely.

Some blame has to be passed on to the Commissioners of Fire Districts who don't have pre-requisites for the Officer positions. Or how about a requiring firefighters to be active members in their departments for a perscribed time before they are allowed to be nominated into a Officers position?

A combination of both a Fire Officers desire to be trained, and a Fire District requiring a combination of experience and training would help alleviate un-trained Officers on the fireground.

[firecapt32 282]

There you go VV only when the departments mandate training will the quality of the officers go up. IM sure if the general public knew how inexperienced the fire service really is there would be a uprising. Im not saying this is the case for all departments-- but mabey some departments should spend more money on training and making sure their men/women are trained righ then they do on parades, not that pardes arent important but well they actualy arent important. you wanna show off you apparatus and your equipment and men, do it with deparmental drill in your town let the people see what you are really doing. hard day with the probies sorry for rambling. graduation is in 3 weeks then i will be back to my normal self.

[res6cue 67]

Good topic, I totally missed it initially.

I agree with much of what has been said. I've been part of situations on both extremes of the spectrum. I've been to minor incidents where the panic button was pushed and the next thing I knew we had trucks from all over piling up on the scene, often after an under control was already given. On the flip side, I've also been to incidents where I've sat on the pump panel thinking "where the hell is the cavalry?!" Both situations suck, both can be somewhat embarrassing and the latter is almost always dangerous and asking for trouble. The former, while a definite waste of resources, is erring on the side of caution. I'd take that every single time over not having enough resources to get the job done.

That being said, I also agree that erring on the side of caution does NOT excuse poor judgment or lack of training and/or experience. I've been the IC myself where I really had to think about time of day and what apparatus and manpower level I ultimately wanted if the situation progressed, and I had to make that gut call. Even if the situation wound up being minor when all was said and done, I like to take into account the POTENTIAL of the situation. I've seen "routine" calls go bad in a hurry because the first truck took longer to get to the scene than anticipated, or worse, it rolled with a skeleton crew or a bunch of probies. Obviously that mainly applies to volunteer agencies, of which my entire county is comprised of.

Incidentally, I really believe Rockland County has some absolutely top notch training facilities and instructors. Some of the best in the country, and the amount of out of state depts that come to Pomona reflects that fact. It's been my experience and observation that every dept here takes full advantage of it too, if for nothing other than by default. Most depts have pretty comprehensive training requirements as well, not just for the officers but for every member.

As was already said by others, I think training is key. It's the basis for everything else you'll ever do, which is what makes the initial training you give your members probably the most important lessons you'll ever teach them. Everything they experience and every subsequent training they take from that point on, they'll inevitably reflect back on the first classes and drills they were at. They are most impressionable in their first year or so, just like a small child is. They'll soak it all in like a sponge and retain it forever, so make sure you build a good, solid foundation for them. This way, in 10 years when they're a junior officer at their first structure fire as IC, they WON'T panic and start screaming over the radio, but they'll take pause and do a proper size up and calmly think to themselves "I'm ready for this, bring it on!"

[Guest]

There seem to be other reasons to have mutual and automatic aid policies in place. Here are a few that come to my mind:

1. It is hard for many departments to fight the fire and act as their own RIT/FAST. That team should be responding immediately because they are our insurance policy.

2. Tanker shuttles.

3. Firehouse coverage. A house fire for most departments is an all hands situation. Why not plan for that overlapping call? You can always redirect to the scene if your own resources are running low. Having them in town cuts down on their response time.

4. Guarantees that you are getting a certain response and takes the guesswork out of who is coming. By agreeing to certain departments responding in automatically on certain types of calls ensures a consistent response. The IC has a lot to do on the scene. Trying to figure out which aid departments should respond to the scene, cover the house, etc adds work that can be avoided by including other departments in a box structure.

5. Helps with ISO rating which has a huge financial impact on property owners.

6. Many firefighter injuries occur after the fire is knocked down. The firefighters on the scene are tired, yet they continue to work instead of going to rehab. why not use fresh bodies to help out?

7. There is a formula for figuring out the manpower needed at a fire. You can easily get into the 30 to 50 firefighter range in my town. I have a duty shift of five (soon going to six) and over 30 volunteers. We get great turnout, but with the size of houses in my town, wanting a RIT, supplying tankers, etc, it is hard to see how my department alone can handle the job.

8. Why would you wait to arrive on scene to determine the size of the fire which then would determine if you would call mutual aid or not? Think of the huge delay in getting the mutual aid department to the scene if the fire is more than a room and contents, or extends beyond room and contents? That causes more fire damage, more fire and more risk to our own.

I am not implying that automatic or mutual aid should be used on every call. When and how it is used is determined by the chiefs of those departments. But, it is nice to know that you have aid coming in when needed.

Just some thoughts.

[Monty 35]

There seem to be other reasons to have mutual and automatic aid policies in place.  Here are a few that come to my mind:

1.  It is hard for many departments to fight the fire and act as their own RIT/FAST.  That team should be responding immediately because they are our insurance policy.

2.  Tanker shuttles.

3.  Firehouse coverage.  A house fire for most departments is an all hands situation.  Why not plan for that overlapping call?  You can always redirect to the scene if your own resources are running low.  Having them in town cuts down on their response time.

4.  Guarantees that you are getting a certain response and takes the guesswork out of who is coming.  By agreeing to certain departments responding in automatically on certain types of calls ensures a consistent response.  The IC has a lot to do on the scene.  Trying to figure out which aid departments should respond to the scene, cover the house, etc adds work that can be avoided by including other departments in a box structure. 

.....

I am not implying that automatic or mutual aid should be used on every call.  When and how it is used is determined by the chiefs of those departments.  But, it is nice to know that you have aid coming in when needed.

Just some thoughts.

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This reminds me of my earlier days upstate. I was with a department that was one of twelve in a town of 85,000 nighttime, 300,000 daytime population (A rescue from the town was recently featured in FireRescue Magazine). For many years there has been automatic daytime mutual aid where at least an engine was dispatched from another department on weekdays for most calls. On reported working fires, an engine would automatically be dispatched to standby in quarters - a no lights and siren response. Often this engine would be upgraded and redirected to the scene. I belive they have now added FAST team response as well to the signal 30 response.

This whole process was very smooth and worked very well. All the 'boxes' were set out so the dispatchers knew which department to call in what order. Admittedly, the town is a much smaller area than Westchester. However, it would be nice if the county here worked better together, less politics, more standardized operating procedures, less politics, etc. Maybe we'd get away from calling a FAST team, putting them to use as regular teams then having to dispatch the next FAST team. Although, maybe we should use the Phoenix On-Deck concept .....

[ltjay157 10]

Out of curiousity, what would the qualifications for a Chief, Asst Chief, Capt, Lieut be? I'm working on trying to get my dept to adopt such qualifications because we have none currently which is sad. Our training officer doesn't know his a** from his elbow and have some lieutenants that have never seen a fire. I'll be the first to admit that I don't have enough training as a Lieutenant. I'm just trying to better our officers to lead our firefighters. Most of my training was OTJ and I feel that's not enough. I have 14 yrs in and have these certs FF-1, FF-2, Pump Operator, Confined Space Operations, Haz Mat Awareness, Haz Mat Operations, Incident Command System, Safe Driver Training, and MRT (Medical Response Tech). I'm about ready to hang up my LT's shield because we have a lot of guys with the 2/20 syndrome )2yrs on & 20yrs experience) that think they should be officers. Any help would be greatly appreciated