Reprocussions For No FAST Training?

[Guest mnfbhmc1]

If a department sends a FAS team, and the members are not trained in Firefighter survival, FAS, etc, what are the reprocussions if a member is injured?

Is there a standard in any area county for FAS team certification, or can anybody put one together and call themselves FAS?

[exmrvfc 0]

The County requires that you notify thm in writing that you have a FAST team that you want entered into the CAD and also advise if they are available for mutual aid. While we did not have to supply any details, all of our members had the OFPC Class as well as additional training in house.

From what I have seen with neighboring departments is that no one advises the county until they have enough guys trained.

[nm54 0]

.5 Rapid Intervention for Rescue of Members.

8.5.1 The fire department shall provide personnel for the rescue of members operating at emergency incidents.

8.5.2 A rapid intervention crew/company shall consist of at least two members and shall be available for rescue of a member or a crew.

8.5.2.1 A rapid intervention crew/company shall be fully equipped with the appropriate protective clothing, protective equipment, SCBA, and any specialized rescue equipment that could be needed given the specifics of the operation under way.

8.5.3 The composition and structure of a rapid intervention crew/company shall be permitted to be flexible based on the type of incident and the size and complexity of operations.

8.5.4 The incident commander shall evaluate the situation and the risks to operating crews and shall provide one or more rapid intervention crew/company commensurate with the needs of the situation.

8.5.5 In the early stages of an incident, which includes the deployment of a fire department's initial attack assignment, the rapid intervention crew/company shall be in compliance with 8.4.11 and 8.4.12 and be either one of the following:

(1) On-scene members designated and dedicated as rapid intervention crew/company

(2) On-scene members performing other functions but ready to re-deploy to perform rapid intervention crew/company functions

8.5.5.1 The assignment of any personnel shall not be permitted as members of the rapid intervention crew/company if abandoning their critical task(s) to perform rescue clearly jeopardizes the safety and health of any member operating at the incident.

8.5.6 As the incident expands in size or complexity, which includes an incident commander's requests for additional resources beyond a fire department's initial attack assignment, the dedicated rapid intervention crew/company shall on arrival of these additional resources be either one of the following:

(1) On-scene members designated and dedicated as rapid intervention crew/company

(2) On-scene crew/company or crews/companies located for rapid deployment and dedicated as rapid intervention crews

8.5.6.1 During fire fighter rescue operations each crew/company shall remain intact.

8.5.7 At least one dedicated rapid intervention crew/company shall be standing by with equipment to provide for the rescue of members that are performing special operations or for members that are in positions that present an immediate danger of injury in the event of equipment failure or collapse.

8.4.11* One standby member shall be permitted to perform other duties outside of the hazard area, such as apparatus operator, incident commander, or technician or aide, provided constant communication is maintained between the standby member and the members of the crew.

8.4.12 The assignment of any personnel, including the incident commander, the safety officer, or operators of fire apparatus, shall not be permitted as standby personnel if by abandoning their critical task(s) to assist or, if necessary, perform rescue, they clearly jeopardize the safety and health of any fire fighter working at the incident.

8.4.12.1 No one shall be permitted to serve as a standby member of the fire-fighting crew when the other activities in which the fire fighter is engaged inhibit the fire fighter's ability to assist in or perform rescue, if necessary, or are of such importance that they cannot be abandoned without placing other fire fighters in danger.

A.8.4.11 The following examples show how a department could deploy a team of four members initially at the scene of a structure fire, regardless of how the team members are assembled:

(1) The team leader and one fire fighter could advance a fire-fighting hoseline into the IDLH atmosphere, and one fire fighter and the pump operator become the standby members.

(2) The team leader could designate the pump operator to be the incident commander. The team leader and one fire fighter enter the IDLH atmosphere, and one fire fighter and pump operator remain outside as the standby members.

(3) Two fire fighters could advance the hoseline in the IDLH atmosphere, and the team leader and pump operator remain outside as standby members.

[firecapt32 282]

nm54 says a lot in in the entry--here it is ina nut shell "TRAIN YOUR MEN." all firefighers should have survival thats a must!!!! do not let them enter a building with out giving them the skills to get out of trouble. As far as FAST goes train you own department first get them fast ready -- then worry about the County. Protect your own first.

[shac 7313 0]

well said cousin walter ! !!

[Remember585 815]

NM54,

Where did you get that info? Is there a link I can go to?

Thanks.

[Monty 35]

If a department sends a FAS team, and the members are not trained in Firefighter survival, FAS, etc, what are the reprocussions if a member is injured?

Is there a standard in any area county for FAS team certification, or can anybody put one together and call themselves FAS?

←

Feeling slighty under the weather this morning ..... I'm sure like most things here - no repercussions - unless something really, really bad happens and you get lawyers involved.

I'm sure there are mutual aid and other agreements stating requirements, but enforcing those is another thing. If you have an underperforming team though, I'm sure you will be called less often as it generally seems to be up to each IC who gets called as opposed to a standard process that dispatch follows. (I guess it would be tough to have a standard process without a standard dispatching procedure anyway )

[229909 0]

maybe they are wondering if OSHA will site them a violation if there is a LODD if no one is trained.

Edited June 7, 2006 by 229909

[ex-commish 490]

maybe they are wondering if OSHA will site them a violation if there is a LODD if no one is trained.

←

An OSHA cite is the least of worries....

[CFD320 35]

NM54,

Where did you get that info?  Is there a link I can go to?

Thanks.

←

That is out of NFPA 1500......

As to the question what are the repercussions....If the crew are all NYS certified Interior firefighters I don’t see a liability issue. But I wouldn’t want a bunch of probies coming in after my rotund behind.

Edited June 8, 2006 by CFD320

[nm54 0]

you are required to have a team on hand before making entry. unless rescue is required are all departments waiting for there fast team before making attacking the fire

[Guest KJS134]

Waiting for a FAST before you make an intial attack? Come on now...think about what you're saying. The longer you wait to make an attack, the more dangerous it's going to get. That fire isn't going to wait for anything...it's going to continue to grow and consume everything in its path and weaken the structure by the minute. Think about your average fire right from the beginning....how long has it been burning before someone calls 911, how long bfore you were dispatched, how long before you respond and arrive on scene? What about the building itself..... is it an old building with balloon construction with fire in the walls making its way to the attic? Is it new with light weight trusses and I beams that fail in 5-10 minutes max with direct fire exposure? Even steel I beams start to bend, weaken and fail at 1000 degrees.... which doesnt take very long to reach in a commercial building filled with synthetic materials, chemicals and who knows what else.

If you think you can stand around waiting even a few minutes for a FAST to arrive from another town, or even from your own dept., you better just put up the master stream and do a surround and drown....otherwise someone is going to get killed.

What you need to do is get water on that fire as soon as possible, rely on your training to figure out the risk/benefit of your attack and utilize the two in/two out rule. No FAST is going to make the situation any safer.....putting the fire out is whats going to make the scene safe.

[res6cue 67]

you are required to have a team on hand before making entry. unless rescue is required are all departments waiting for there fast team before making attacking the fire

What? That's absurd. Are you quoting some official policy or law, or is this just your own opinion?

Our dept has our own comprehensive FAST SOP which outlines the training requirements, among other things. It also states that the Incident Commander must call for a FAST team for every working structure fire, as well as other incidents that might require the services of a FAST team. I'm not aware of any policy in place by Rockland County that mandates it, although it's been standard practice for many years now for the IC to call for one immediately.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I think he misspoke about needed a team on hand before entry. Prior to entry you are required to have the apropiate amount of personnel on hand on the exterior for those who will be operating inside in accordance to the 2 in/2out requirement in OSHA 1910.130 Respiratory Protection Standard. The only out for this is if there is an immediate life safety issue.

Having a FASTeam respond with non-FAST trained personnel in my opinion defeats the purpose. Your function is to provide persons trained in the skills to locate, rescue/extricate and remove a downed firefighter. The optimum is taking something out of the equation that can cause that in the first place. Can a person be trained in-house, sure. But at what level, by whom and are they trained in a coordinated manner? Its not that difficult to get the FAST course, and again, it is delivered by experienced instructors, following a coordinated and stringent lesson plan. Would you throw un-trained person in the middle of a technical rescue? Would you allow them to rig a hauling or lowering system you were going to hang off of? Then why would you want them dedicated to be there for you in a time of need? There are numerous case histories of LODD's and near misses that can be discussed where hap-hazard attempts to get firefighters out of buildings have taken extenuous amounts of time leading to worse injuries or their deaths. Many of the skills taught in the FAST curriculum have come from these lessons.

On a side note I've also seen similiar to departments who in-house train members on auto-extrication. I've sat in on numerous such "classes" where mis-information, out dated information and wrong technical information is disseminated. This is dangerous and silly at the least. There are resources out there for all departments, utilize them officers and chiefs. There are tons of fire instructors whom dedicate themselves to receiving additional training to become an instructor and then again to teach specific areas of the fire service.

You will fight like you train. You will react like you train. Are you ready?

[Guest]

This type of training is really an emerging area for the fire service. I am not aware of any standard, but that will likely occur at some point in the future like everything else that we do.

But, if your department responds as a FAST, then you should certainly have specialized training, standard operating procedures, equipment, etc. And, you shouldn't permit anyone to participate on a FAST without going through training.

FASTs are deployed to save firefighters. Typically, that firefighter in trouble is found in the worst conditions. Techniques for searching for a downed firefighter and removing him are highly specialized. You put your FAST members at more risk (and you are doing nothing to benefit the downed firefighter) if they don't go through regular training.

So, one way to protect your firefighters, benefit the downed firefighter and shield yourself from liability if you develop SOPs, have a regular training program and get taught by instructors who specialize in this.

Our department will only call a RIT (we're in CT) from a department that trains in RIT. Likewise, we provide RIT to certain towns. We do regularly train, have SOPs, have a designated RIT truck with equipment that we can use for RIT, etc.

FAST is an emerging speciality. But, it is important. We put ourselves in harm's way and the FAST/RIT is our insurance policy.