Roof operations?

[Guest]

With the ongoing discussion of building construction in mind how many departments train on different ventilation techniques - i.e. making your cuts from a TL etc... If so what are those techniques?

[Guest]

With the ongoing discussion of building construction in mind how many departments train on different ventilation techniques - i.e. making your cuts from a TL etc... If so what are those techniques?

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I was hoping I would get at least some help on this one !!

[antiquefirelt 994]

We specifically are replacing our straight stick with a tower for this reason (among many). The prevelance of trusses and lightweight construction have basically got us thinking that in the next 20 years roof ventilation will become much more dangerous as the number of liller roofs are built. Venting from a tower bucket is the safest way thus far. I like the shape charges the ESU guys have for doors, but they won't let us try it!

[Jason762 2]

We specifically are replacing our straight stick with a tower for this reason (among many). The prevelance of trusses and lightweight construction have basically got us thinking that in the next 20 years roof ventilation will become much more dangerous as the number of liller roofs are built. Venting from a tower bucket is the safest way thus far. I like the shape charges the ESU guys have for doors, but they won't let us try it!

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It's all well and good to make your cuts from a TL when possible, but there are so many times when it isn't possible. Overhead wires, recessed buildings, narrow streets, double parked cars, all these things make our job very difficult. For these reasons, we must pre-plan our response areas and try to know what buildings are truss construction. We also have to train to become proficient in operating off a roof ladder on a steep incline.

Many dept.'s are moving towards a no vertical ventilations stance and I have to say its not a bad idea. Its not possible in most jurisdictions to know every buildings construction features and unless you have a pre-plan on every building readily available in the rig, we don't know what we are walking into (or on top of) in most cases.

[mstrang1 213]

J- I agree with you and I read an article a while back about a Dept. ( or actually, the municipality) that REQUIRED some kind of symbol ( a yellow triangle I believe) next to the front door of all buildings that have truss construction, lightweight or otherwise. I believe this would take a great deal of work on someones part to undertake, especially in a district like ours.

Along the same lines, some FDs, I think FDNY included, have a policy of nobody on a pitched roof. Maybe someone more in the know of FDNY SOGs or another dept with similar SOGs can fill me/us in on this.

Just remember, also many people use attics as storage, with plywood boards down on top of the flat rafters, so, unless the fire is in the attic space, venting the roof may be of little help. Aggressive horizontal ventilation is key in these buildings.

[JohnnyOV 2]

J- I agree with you and I read an article a while back about a Dept. ( or actually, the municipality) that REQUIRED some kind of symbol ( a yellow triangle I believe) next to the front door of all buildings that have truss construction, lightweight or otherwise.  I believe this would take a great deal of work on someones part to undertake, especially in a district like ours. 

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In NJ, they have red triangles placed on the side of the building...quite useful when you think about it

http://fdfriendly.com/subcategory_detail.asp?id=136

link for picture

Edited May 26, 2006 by EMSJunkie712

[Guest Rich DD]

In NJ, they have red triangles placed on the side of the building...quite useful when you think about it

http://fdfriendly.com/subcategory_detail.asp?id=136

link for picture

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The triangle works great for us. In fact, they state Roof, Floor, or both should the floor be garbage joice. It is especially helpfull in multi-family dwelings where every second in the building is going against you.

This is another primary reason Depts. should have their communications require updates on progress every five minutes. Gives the IC and idea that time for the working firefighters may be running out. Especially if there is no progress on the seat of the fire.

Edited May 26, 2006 by Rich DD

[Remember585 815]

I remember getting an e-mail a while back with this...

But....I have yet to see it.

Edited May 26, 2006 by Remember585

[RichC 0]

J- I agree with you and I read an article a while back about a Dept. ( or actually, the municipality) that REQUIRED some kind of symbol ( a yellow triangle I believe) next to the front door of all buildings that have truss construction, lightweight or otherwise.  I believe this would take a great deal of work on someones part to undertake, especially in a district like ours. 

Along the same lines, some FDs, I think FDNY included, have a policy of nobody on a pitched roof.  Maybe someone more in the know of FDNY SOGs or another dept with similar SOGs can fill me/us in on this.

Just remember, also many people use attics as storage, with plywood boards down on top of the flat rafters, so, unless the fire is in the attic space, venting the roof may be of little help.  Aggressive horizontal ventilation is key in these buildings.

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[RichC 0]

mstrang1

I have heard the same thing about roof vent strategy in the FDNY. If they can't cut from a bucket for the reasons already mentioned, wires, setback, etc. they don't cut. They will pull the gable vents on an unfinished attic and pull ceiling from the floor below and hit it that way.

I am wondering if anyone has tried this instead of sending a crew to the roof and how it went for them.

[Guest]

FDNY sop in short is if you can't walk on it, don't cut it...also no chainsaws...Partner saws only...the theory is that you can vent enough horizontally in most PDs

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I'm with Jason, the trend that I've been noticing is that with many departments vertical ventilation is starting to fall on the priority scale. Especially with reduced personnel on scene there are other critical functions that need to occur. My personal preference is that I do not myself nor would I send a crew onto any lightweight construction roof. Especially flat bar joist roofs. If it is early in the fire and there are manmade openings that can be taken that would be it. Too many of our brothers and sisters have lost their lives in truss failures and they are still occuring today in buildings that have been evacuated or are even vacant. Many of them we have all heard the places and the loss associated with them. FDNY Walbaums fire, Hackensack, NJ, Lake Worth, TX (which fire engineering had a great article on recently). I have pulled gable vents when the attic space was involved and it worked fairly well. One side was used for extinguishment when interior ops was no longer an option and the other was to allow the heat and by products to escape. I can't count how many times I've vented a residential peaked roof and when going to push out out the ceiling below hit tongue and groove flooring, never getting the ceiling to the fire room open.

Antique, your points are very valid. The only thing I differ on is that roof ventilation is dangerous right now, as with any operation above the fire. It 20 years with technology it may only get worse.

[Guest]

my prefrence on a trussand peak roofs is the syracuse cut it is very effective in many i was taught this in truck company ops class

[Guest]

With the ongoing discussion of building construction in mind how many departments train on different ventilation techniques - i.e. making your cuts from a TL etc... If so what are those techniques?

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[Guest]

In my experience, the vast majority of fires that I have responded to over the years were vented without the need to cut a roof vent. We attempt to horizontally ventilate and use PPV whenever possible. It is both safer and needs less manpower to accomplish. You can get a vent going with only two people, don't have to worry about saw failures, and keep people off the roof.

True, there are some fires where we need to ascend to the roof. I view this as a last resort, especially on the newer homes that use lightweight construction and can have steep roof angles.

It is great to be able to work off of an aerial, but it is not always possible. But, we always will use a roof ladder and throw up a couple of ground ladders. Have an officer monitor both the time the men are up on the roof and the fire conditions. Great to have a TIC too so that you can see fire spread from up on the roof. This was used very effectively at a major commercial fire that we had recently. You could clearly see the areas where the fire was causing compromise. And, you could feel the spongy roof. This was on an old balloon frame building. If it was made of lightweight construction we would not have been on the roof.

Frankly, if you are battling a fire with lightweight construction and the fire gets into void spaces, you shouldn't be doing an interior attack anyway. NIOSH has a great booklet on fires with lightweight construction. Its not worth risking the lives of my men.

And, my final comment on a tower versus an aerial ladder, it would be great to have a tower, but in some communities such as ours, we are lucky to get the rear mount stick in the driveway.