The Youth Of This Board

[Guest]

Although I don't post much here, I enjoy very much reading these boards. I read a few forums across the net, and this is one of the most interesting and well maintained.

One thing I notice on this forum is the youth....kids seemingly 14-21 who are explorers or younger members of the department on this forum, seem to have, no offense to anyone, big mouths and attitudes. Some of these members seem to be quite opinionated and come across as arrogant and think they know everything and have an opinion on everything. Now, there are some that are great and know there place, but those seem to be few.

All I'm trying to say to these members is that there are a TON of knowledgeable, experienced people from all over the emergency services field on these forums. Instead of trying to make it look like you know it all, sometimes, sit back, relax, and listen to what they have to say.AND ASK QUESTIONS! NO ONE is going to fault you for not knowing something...you don't have to answer a post just because you just learned it in FFI last night.

I think this board is a great tool to let us all share our knowledge that we have. It's not a game of who can answer the question. I learn a ton from different peoples opinions and ideas here, but it does annoy me to see brand new firefighters or worse yet explorers who probably haven't seen many incidents or even driven emergency vehicles, etc arguing about how they are right versus someone with 10-20 years in, or giving their opinion on something they heard around the firehouse but have no clue about.

I think a majority of the kids nowadays are used to sharing online, and its part of their everyday lives, via myspace AIM etc, and that's why so many are on these forums, it's just natural to them where this is a new trend to us "grown" adults. But let's keep the maturity, professionalism, and respect we display to the senior members and officers in the field on here too.

Sorry for the long vent, but I hope the kids read and get the idea....what do you think?

P.S. If these kids want to earn respect on these forums, some need to also watch their spelling and grammar.

Edited May 22, 2006 by Pressure

[res6cue 67]

While your point may have some merit to it, a few things jump out at me.

First, that you only have 2 posts here. Not to say that makes your opinion any less valid or somehow diminishes your right to state it, but it definitely does come across in an unflattering way for someone with so few posts to have such a strong opinion about how everyone else posts.

Also, we were all young and excited and ready to go once. I was pretty arrogant when I first got out of Essentials and thought I knew it all. Hell, sometimes I still get a bit heady at times and have to reel myself in a bit, and I've been in the game for 17 years now!

While I definitely get a kick out of reading some posts online, not just this board, I try not to let it get to me (much). I made a post the other day in the "Patient requests silent response" thread that wasn't all that different about how some opinions from younger guys show their age, inexperience or immaturity. Fact is, I was only assuming they were younger guys, they could've been in their 40s for all I know, just with a bitter, selfish attitude. I don't think arrogance is exclusive to the young crowd. Some of the younger guys I've come across are quite the opposite, eager to learn and listen, less inclined to run their mouth.

I guess my point is, I'd be more inclined to shake my head at a post an older member might make where they throw around unsolicited opinions or criticisms. Especially if it has not much to do with the main point of the thread. Respect is a two way street, and having years in or being older doesn't give you any license to act like you're a self appointed expert who knows it all. None of us knows it all, not even close.

Edited May 22, 2006 by res6cue

[grantnet10 1]

Pressure, you seem like you feel under "pressure" with all the younger people on this board. It seems that you feel the need to belittle people just because you claim that you are older and feel "more experienced." Yes, it is more common for younger people to share information via electronic means than "your generation". I don't see a problem with anyone posing any questions or even answering anything that they know about. A lot of explorers in departments around the county are making twice as many calls as full members. You have explorers riding there bikes in heavy rain and wind to get to a call, buying their own gear with there hard earned money, etc. I call that devotion to their community and the department as a whole. I think you need to go back to FF1 and take a class with the younger members. Then hopefully you'll get the picture that younger people have a clue. You don't need to be the most senior guy in the house to know whats going on. I'm sorry that you feel out of the loop, but with the additude you have, you can be sure your future in the fire service will be very short lived.

[HFD23 37]

Your all getting ridiculous, as far as i am concerned you’re all acting like 5 year olds the man expressed an opinion.. while yes a lot of the younger members are really into this site that is great it is a learning tool and they have the rite to post... but pressure is correct your new your young and while you may read every book and website and manual and take FF1 or any other class you may want, that doesn't mean you know it all... you lack real world on scene experience and remember that yes things times and tactics change so we all must keep learning but the senior men have experience’s well beyond yours and there is much that can be learned from them and as with the younger members you may be taught in FF1 or the academy new ways of doing things the senior may not have been taught so live and learn from each other...

lastly yes any member who wants to post on this board should stop hiding behind names with no profiles... its my opinion that you should have to all be verified members in order to have the rite to post this way there is more creditability to what you say..

And I am not hiding who i am, seth as well as many other members know me and my Credibility......

Edited May 22, 2006 by HFD23

[Guest]

Wow Deja Vu....I'm pretty sure this particular topic has been covered in at least 3 different (long) threads within the past year. It really gets both sides twisted - I believe this is a good time to enact the "agree to disagree" clause. Really though, part of what makes this site so worthwhile is the ability to let everyone express themselves and what they're passionate about - if we all agreed this would be an extremely boring site - It's good that we have principles and more importantly that we express them! Carry on! I wouldn't mind hearing from some of the "juniors" on this issue.

[27east 19]

The guy made an opinion...take it easy people.

[Guest]

This is just plain childish, the fact of the matter is that we should all be free to post our opinions, and not bash other's for there's as 'Pressure' has.

Anyone notice that 'Pressure' has disapeared since his initial post... nothing to say now?

←

Maybe you should take some of your own advice. Stop acting like a child and stop bashing another poster.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Ok, I guess everyone is chiming in their two cents here and there.

Are there younger members out there who think they know it all?

Sure there are.

Was I one of those at one point in time?

Sure I was.

Is it fair to make a rash generalization about the younger generation making posts of an off color or taste, or with attitudes?

That is where I step in.

When I first entered the fire service, I certainly was the "6-20". Six months in, twenty years experience. We all start out that way, its just to what degree. Are there those who know a lot, and pick up on everything extremely fast? Most definitely. In most cases it is how you present what you know, or what you think.

As best I can tell, I do not think that too many of the younger crowd in here handle themselves inappropriately. Maybe one or two things here and there are presented wrong, but everyone in here contributes (hopefully) toward the better good of the fire service, and their brethren.

Being somewhat closely associated with the "youth" of this forum, I think you should know that not everyone has, or will produce an attitude, or have a big mouth.

If anyone finds anything inappropriate about what we say, it is pointed out, and most often scrutinized, and for the most part, they do not repeat themselves. This is a learning experience for EVERYONE. I think in part, the youth DO come here for advice, counsel, and to learn. I have learned a lot from the postings in this forum. This is the first, and only forum I am a member of, and I am on here daily. I hate to see a lot of smart, youthful, energetic, and maybe overzealous (at times) generation being put down as such.

Am I attacking Pressure's opinion? I certainly do not hope anyone thinks I am, I am just trying to look out for those of us, who think that it is unfair to generalize about a group of individuals.

-xfirefighter484x

[Guest]

im 21 and all i have to say is that i am not a kid i may be in the department for 3 yrs but i do know my share of knowledge i have taken training classes and read stuff online its doesnt mean i know everything, i dont i have learned alot of respected knowledge off this site and i appreciate that. its not fair that you come after younger/ new members of the this site we all equal here this is a "judgment free site" who cares who knows what that is why we write post to ask for imformation or gather more information on a topic that we want to share out views on you wanna judge people go somewere else.. thats all i have to say about this

Charlie Melillo

Port Chester Fire Dept

[AS702 0]

Lets not forget the older guys who don't know everything.. There will always be younger guys who think they know everything.. Then theres the older guys who think the younger guys know everything and get pissed when they don't know something.. So us younger members will always catch s*** from every angle for everything..

[grumpyff 1,159]

Sure, this board does have a younger membership, and sometimes it shows, usually in threads about what blue lights do you have in your POV, and 'dream depts/apparatus'. Was I like that when I first joined the fire service...of course, sometimes I will check the members info, to be surprised that the person is actually older than me. But with age/experience I calmed down a little, just a little. As someone who took Essentials, a 39 hour course way back in 1989, I find it refreshing to listen to the 20 year old who just took FF1, and is looking foward to the next class. The older member can often often learn from the younger member, and vice versa..it is a two way street. The younger members may look at a problem and see a different solution than an older member who has always done it the way it was taught years ago. New/younger membership can often bring new ideas/solutions, so don't be so quick to judge them just because they are new.

[ex-commish 490]

I read Pressure's post and disagree with some of it but I don't think it is fair to jump on the guy because he has expressed his opinion on here. While as a chief and an instructor who interacts regularly with our youth I will say some of them are respectable and eager to learn while some of them do have this know it all attitude but it is up to us to allow them to prove them selves as we did...not here on EMTBRAVO but where it matters. Actions speaks louder than words.

Let's respect eachother's opinions.

[AS702 0]

Anyone have opinions on people who have no affiliation with any emergency service and think they know it all?

[Guest]

Everyone calm down. Wow!!!! This is one of the most active forums in a long time!!!

In response to the initial post, I think that Pressure had no right to tell us younger folks to "know our place." If we have received the same training and certifications as older folks, we have a right to express our opinion. We may be al ittle more excited or heady, but that's all part of being a young emergency service member!!!

[res6cue 67]

Anyone have opinions on people who have no affiliation with any emergency service and think they know it all?

You mean non-affiliated buffs thinking they know it all about emergency services because they follow us around taking pictures all day or reading message boards like these or being an apparatus aficionado? If that's what you mean, then yeah I would definitely have to say "JUST SHUT UP!" to them if they were arrogant and ran their mouth. It's one thing to have a bright eyed, bushy tailed young guy freshly crammed with knowledge who just can't wait to share it all...or a crusty old leatherhead who has seen and done it all and thinks no one could possibly know more than him...at least they're in the game. That would be like a guy watching Platoon or Crimson Tide and thinking he knows what it's like to be in the armed forces.

To be clear, I have absolutely NO problem with buffs or hobbiests that are into what we do, our history, our calls, our apparatus, etc. If they want to learn and ask questions, even better. I would draw the line, however, at being "schooled" by one of them on something I have 17 years firsthand experience doing and they have 0.

Edited May 22, 2006 by res6cue

[DOC22 1]

Ok, I guess everyone is chiming in their two cents here and there.

Are there younger members out there who think they know it all?

Sure there are.

Was I one of those at one point in time?

Sure I was.

Is it fair to make a rash generalization about the younger generation making posts of an off color or taste, or with attitudes?

That is where I step in.

When I first entered the fire service, I certainly was the "6-20". Six months in, twenty years experience. We all start out that way, its just to what degree. Are there those who know a lot, and pick up on everything extremely fast? Most definitely. In most cases it is how you present what you know, or what you think.

As best I can tell, I do not think that too many of the younger crowd in here handle themselves inappropriately. Maybe one or two things here and there are presented wrong, but everyone in here contributes (hopefully) toward the better good of the fire service, and their brethren.

Being somewhat closely associated with the "youth" of this forum, I think you should know that not everyone has, or will produce an attitude, or have a big mouth.

If anyone finds anything inappropriate about what we say, it is pointed out, and most often scrutinized, and for the most part, they do not repeat themselves. This is a learning experience for EVERYONE. I think in part, the youth DO come here for advice, counsel, and to learn. I have learned a lot from the postings in this forum. This is the first, and only forum I am a member of, and I am on here daily. I hate to see a lot of smart, youthful, energetic, and maybe overzealous (at times) generation being put down as such.

Am I attacking Pressure's opinion? I certainly do not hope anyone thinks I am, I am just trying to look out for those of us, who think that it is unfair to generalize about a group of individuals.

-xfirefighter484x

←

You just said it all, I agree 100%!

[efdny2003 16]

I would just like to say as a jr. with the fire department, not every jr. acts like they know everything. I'm not doubting that there are those who do try to act like that, and probably pardon the way this sounds end up getting shut up as an older more experienced firefighter corrects them. But keep in mind, we are only jr.'s or explorers, it's our job to learn just as much as it is a regular firefighter's job to learn. But instead of trying to belittle us, because just earlier today I was at a fire call for a washdown from a motor vehicle accident, but again instead of belittleing us and saying we act arrogant or anything along those lines, simply correct us in a dignified mannor. If we posted something thats wrong, correct it, because I sure know that if I've posted something that's inaccurate, or even at the fire house if I've done soemthing wrong, I'ld like to be corrected so that I know not to do that again. There are the handful of us who try to make as many calls, drills, and other department events as possible. I used to be one of the jr.'s riding down the street for a call, even when there was a blizzard. So while there is the group of jr.'s who try to act like they know everything, don't forget about the probably larger group of jr.'s and explorers who try to learn what they can, which comes in part from the full firefighters correcting us and helping us.

[Guest]

Anyone notice that 'Pressure' has disapeared since his initial post... nothing to say now?

No, I didn't "dissapear". I don't have all afternoon to sit on the computer and bicker on this topic, I have responsiblities. Also, when I post I like to take it easy and see what others have to say and take it all in BEFORE replying. There's no need for impulsiveness for me.

Yes, he also attacked people in his opinion. 

I haven't attacked ANYONE in my opinion. I simply gave my opinion, and wanted to hear what others have to say. I have submitted the things for verification. Why are you so viscously going after me?

To those who attacked me for not posting a lot.....I'm one of the ones who enjoys primarily reading. This is an issue I've thought about for a while, and decided to post on. We all started at 0 posts. I hope to particpate in more discsussions.

Now, thanks to all for the input ON THE TOPIC and not me. All I was trying to get at is that some, mostly youth, seem very eager to give their opinion, or proclaim their knowledge, and should use the oppurtunity of this forum to expand and hone their knowledge. Yes, the youth should be heard, but I will always stand by the fact that experience teaches us best...and those who neglect that fact truly will not become the best they can be.

[x635 4,066]

Wow, definetly an insightful and interesting thread.

This boards a great learning and communciation tool. Let's not forget that. Even though we may get annoyed at some of these opinions or inaccuracies posted, lets use it to set the facts straight and maybe teach the "youth" a thing or two. There is a great diversity in age, experience, agency, education, etc on this forum, and we will all have differning opinions, and will come across in different tones. But we are all drawn to this forum for a common interest. There's something to learn from every one of us on here, and let's not shut this forum out because we don't like what someone else has to say.

I do agree, however, about some younger members on here having a strong opinion or coming across as know-it-alls. They do need to know their place, and can't just have a "don't like it so what we are just as important" attitude. This is the real world, respect your elders and have manners. They may teach you a thing or two. Respect is earned, not demanded. To those this applies to, you're not impressing any true professional with booksmarts or your opinion, you are impressing them with your willingness to learn, the respect you display for those senior and ranking, and the skill you demonstate. And that takes time to show. Yes, you are important, as you are the future, but those that have been around a while have a tottally different perspective...and often for a good reason. No one is debating I don't think the right for the youth to have an opinion, more the fact of the way they express their opinion.

Just as a note, I've seen several "youths" mature greatly on this board, and it is quite evident through when they started posting, to where they are now. One member in particular started on here at 15 years old, and is now approachiing 18 and has matured into someone who will one day make a fine addition to the field.

It takes time, but we will all see at some point how little we really knew when we were younger and thought we knew it all. Myself included.

[FF402 133]

I have family that is in the volunteer service, and was recently at an event in which I saw the department operate at a call while visiting.

I saw a newer member of the department, 19 years old, basically give his "opinion" which sounded more like orders to a Chief, and the chief obliged. The way he interacted with the chief is what struck me most, especially when their are Lt's and Capt's on scene. This is not the first time I have seen this. The kids in this department have the firehouse as their social club, fill the rig at every call, and think they have the run of the place. They seem to have this sense of power in their department and rule it. It seems a lot of Chiefs and officers in the volunteer service are buddy-buddy with the younger membership, primarily because they are so similar in age, and more importantly, they want votes. This IS NOT healthy! This department is also, like many local departments, has their active membership almost all early 20-something and under. Who do these guys learn from? Senior men are important, they teach us much more then we think.

Officers, you command your troops and are responsible. They are not your friends on duty, and they need to know that. If they don't like you for doing your job, too bad. It's my opinion that this is where some of the attitude Pressure speaks of comes from. I may have digressed from the topic but this is where I think the problem comes from, poor leadership and modern parenting.

Edited May 22, 2006 by FF402

[Guest]

No matter what you do firefighting your always gonna be criticized. It's just the way it works. One minute they like you, Then when you leave your the jerk or idiot. I've been in the fire service 20 years now and things are the same where ever you go. people are ignorant, and some are jealous of other peoples success. You learn to just deal with it. When the crap hits the fan though everyone comes together. It always does.

Edited May 23, 2006 by ccbub31

[Guest]

I have family that is in the volunteer service, and was recently at an event in which I saw the department operate at a call while visiting.

I saw a newer member of the department, 19 years old, basically give his "opinion" which sounded more like orders to a Chief, and the chief obliged. The way he interacted with the chief is what struck me most, especially when their are Lt's and Capt's on scene. This is not the first time I have seen this. The kids in this department have the firehouse as their social club, fill the rig at every call, and think they have the run of the place. They seem to have this sense of power in their department  and rule it. It seems a lot of Chiefs and officers in the volunteer service are buddy-buddy with the younger membership, primarily because they are so similar in age, and more importantly, they want votes.  This IS NOT healthy!  This department is also, like many local departments, has their active membership almost all early 20-something and under.  Who do these guys learn from? Senior men are important, they teach us much more then we think. 

Officers, you command your troops and are responsible. They are not your friends on duty, and they need to know that. If they don't like you for doing your job, too bad.  It's my opinion that this is where some of the attitude Pressure speaks of comes from. I may have digressed from the topic but this is where I think the problem comes from, poor leadership and modern parenting.

←

In my Department, Katonah, there are alot of rules that help to make sure the jobs gets done right. The biggest is probably the rule pertaining to going on an actual call.

No Probationary Firefighters are allowed out on the first due rig.

Only one is allowed on the second due.

This keeps rank in check and makes sure experianced(sp?) people are out there and you're not sending a truck with five 17 year olds out.

Although we have a number of younger guys, like myself, joining, we're lucky to have a majority of members who have more years in the department than we have been alive.

I've not seen one probie in my department that's acted out of line or didn't know their place. I guess we're lucky that we're trained well over here.

Pressure brought up a good point, there are alot of us younger guys who act like they know it all, but, as he said, there are some of us who aren't too bad.

[Guest DFFD227]

I think it's safe to say that x635 was referring to me, the infamous DFFD227, haha I bet all you "old timers" remember me in the beginning of the board. I joined when I was 15 years old. I had about a year in the junior FD program, and I was thriving for information, and at times, I bet all you can agree, (I'm going to get personal here.... ALSFIREFIGHTER - lol) that I was a huge pain in the arsss. But almost 3 years later, a former Lieutenant, Captain, a near graduate of the explorer program, an active member of the Dobbs Ferry ambulance corps, and a recently hired civilian dispatcher, I have learned a lot, not only from this board, but from observing my piers on and off the boards. I learned when I was out of line, and when I should shut up. I learned there was a time and a place for everything. I've been yelled at, bashed, and almost "picked to death", but it all came in good love. I've had my battles on here, and at that time it was personal, but It's funny, three years later you look at it and say "wow, that person was trying to help me". So basically, the point that this rambling man is trying to make here is that the youth is very important in the fire service. There were times that if I DIDNT open my mouth on the boards, I wouldn't have the full knowledge I have now, and it may sound like a complete exaggerate, but there was things I've only learned from these boards, that I've never learned else where, and that's what it's all about. So in conclusion, the Youth of the fire service is very handy...trust me, they don't mean to be pain in the necks, but hey, at that age, it just happens. So I would just like you thank you people (you know who you are) for putting me in my place at the time, and teaching me real life lessons, just by the usage of this board. Thank you.

-George Farrell

Dobbs Ferry Fire Department

[Jason762 2]

In response to the initial post, I think that Pressure had no right to tell us younger folks to "know our place." If we have received the same training and certifications as older folks, we have a right to express our opinion. We may be al ittle more excited or heady, but that's all part of being a young emergency service member!!!

←

It's all well and good to have certifications and training, but what about experience? When you come on as a probie you're job is to shut your mouth and open your ears. Yes, you have already been through FFI and FFII. Yes you have Haz-mat op's, EVOC, and EMT, but what you don't have is any experience in the field. That is the reason why all new probies are told to keep their mouths shut, listen to the senior members and officers, and do as your told. When you come on this job, it is no time to be throwing around your opinions and ideas. It IS the time to "know your place" as was stated earlierand learn. We have had some recent additions to our dept. that had 20+ years experience in other dept.'s and it was like night and day seeing them next to some of our newer "unexperienced" members. They know what is expected of new members (even if they are only new to the dept. not the job). It comes down to the way kids are raised now. So many kids now do not have respect for authority, rank, or their elders. So, if you learn your job and keep your mouth shut and earn the respect of the senior members, then someday you can pass down your experiences to the younger members of the future.

Edited May 23, 2006 by Jason762

[JustSomeGuy 0]

Every member of the fire service is important, but I agree with Jason. Know your place. Unfortunately the "young male" feels they have a lot to prove, and have a lot of machoism and other BS involved in their ego. I am in my mid twenties, and I try at best to keep my mouth shut. If you want to make a good impressions ask questions. Do not be timid or embarassed, better you ask then do something wrong becuase you were unaware. One more tip that was given to me is if you do have a question or a problem consult a blue shirt first. The chief does not need to hear everything, its best to try and settle the problem in your ranks first. Every dept has different personalties, from what I have learned is that even the ones with the toughiest exterior will still gladly help you out.

[RTMM53 3]

Everyone just needs to calm down and realize that no one knows evertything and we should all be learning from each other. That is the bottom line

[IzzyEng4 427]

Being a "legacy" I have to pipe up. Though my mouth has gotten me in trouble as a youth as well.

Growing up in a department where there was no junior / explorer corps I knew more "than tha average bear Boo-Boo." However I know that I didnot know everything, nor would I. 15 years later, her I sit, a past captain norw teaching my younger members how to be. I grab them "by the collar" lik ei was when I shot my mouth off and gave attitude. Me, I was aggressive, wanted to be that "nozzle hog" and so forth.

When you are young, you're full of the old "P" and "V" and want to take on the world. ANd if you disagree with me, you are LYING!!!!!!!

To the younger members here, listen to the guys / gals who have been there and take your courses to "Find point "A" to lead you to the other points" And for the one who WILL BE THE OLD TIMERS!!!! - directyed the youth in the right way and help them out. Don't sit here and complain and not do anything about it!

If you Walk The Walk..... Then Teach the Walk!!!

[Graham26 8]

OK CHILL!!!!! Simmer down now. Your are all 100% right!!! Some youger explorers and firefighters are the biggest @$$holes in the world!!! BUT eventully those @$$holes will be that way to the wrong person and then their going to be put down and put back in their place!!!! For most explorers that are on Bravo most of them want to be progressive and become better explorers and firefighters... THATS why they joined in the first place..... thats why i joined. Most people are dedicated, trustworthy, loyal, inteligent but yet some are not!!!!

[unleashedff248 3]

I believe that the 'loudmouth' attitude of juniors arises from three factors:

1. Inexperience (both in the fire service and in life)

2. A willingness to learn

3. The progressive 'can-do' attitude we forge in children today

We have to remember that these members are learning, and sometimes instead of phrasing their uncertainty in the form of a question, it turns into an opinion or statement offered for no other reason than to be corrected. Plus, sometimes juniors do have good ideas for dealing with unique situations. Just because a 'rook' offers an opinion doesn't mean it should be laughed at. Consider it, and if it's wrong, correct it and explain why. Sometimes gripes about attitudes need to be put aside when dealing with younger people. If it becomes a major problem, confront them. If they don't listen and still continue to cause problems, you know that the attitude was intentional.

Would you rather the juniors be quiet and keep their opinions to themselves, thinking they're correct when they may be mistaken?

On the other hand, defiance is a completely different issue. Defiance leads to danger. This now becomes a disciplinary issue.

As for the machismo attitude...let it go (unless of course it leads to danger). We all did it/do it. In time they'll grow out of it.

Show a young person respect, and they'll give it back two-fold.

[mlfcemt093 0]

Show a young person respect, and they'll give it back two-fold.

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When i'm taught w/ respect i give it back 50 fold as 1 of those past and probaly older "hyper Juniors" and now an instructor I can tell u the "older" members who took the time to "Teach" me and not belittle me got so much more in return, people need to learn: to get respect 1 must give it. Yes i agree people must learn their place but if u approach the situation w/ respect for the individual and the fact that they are eager to learn then both parties will benifit. I tell u from first hand experience that those who gave me no respect got none.......while the end result rarely benifited me i still stuck to my morals and gave what i got AND GAVE IT BACK TEN FOLD AS FAR AS RESPECT so what we all need to do is remember we all are human and make mistakes and the ways of old (chastizing and belitliting) don't work any more, treat junior members as adults and they Will REALIZE THEIR PLACE. O and not every 1 agrees w/ everything that is said, like babies, juniors need to learn from their mistakes in propper fashion You would not yell @ a baby for getting up to learn to walk and falling NO....U help them up and teach them u encourage them in a proper manner.......I believe i have made my point.......