Educating The Public On The Spending Of Their $$

[firecapt32 282]

New fire stations are being build all over the county. More and more money is being spent on apparatus. What does your department do to educate the public when spending thousands or hundreds of thousands of taxpayer money??

[turk182 37]

I do not think many departments want the public educated on the spending of the dept. If the public knew what their money was spent on some people would s@#$ a cow. How many "Hurst" tools, TIC, etc. does one dept. need. You want talk about spending how about $630,000 for a spare ladder truck explain that to the public. It may not totally be the fire departments fault City Hall should take some of the blame they let this kind of thing go on. Some of the problem also lies in the area we serve, most taxpayers do not care if there $6,000 + taxes go up $100 to pay for some unneeded equipment. .

[firecapt32 282]

good point turk-- what about money raised and spent on beer and parades. does mrs smith who sent in 100.00 check thing her money is being spent wisely.

[DaveTFD 0]

are we talking about company money or department money? department money comes from the taxpayers, company money comes from dues/outside donations. parade beer money is paid for by the company or companies that are going to be in the parade in my department

[ex-commish 490]

Due to the articles that highlighted Long Island's fire district's and how they spend money, there may be laws coming down the pipe which will include public hearings for fire district budgets. One lawmaker even wants the public to vote on the budget as it is done in school budgets.

[calhobs 110]

Laws, it has started here in Westchester already.

[junior215 0]

Just a thought ----- Volunteer EMS is missing more calls. Volunteer fire turning out fewer members to calls. New fire apparatus prices are, on average, $500,000 for pumpers, $700,000-1,000,000 for aerials. New firehouses are rediculously big and rediculously expensive.

Is this like someone who is 5' tall buying the biggest truck around because he feels inadequate? Are we really hiding something from the public with smoke screens? Does EVERY fire district need to have rescues, two spare engines, tower ladders, and 5 chiiefs cars??

Maybe some young firefighters should realize that if someone put thier minds to it, sold some of this excess equipment, merged some fire ditricts, and streamlined fire budgets, many areas could have a paid fire service.

This is not the answer for every district. And notice I did not say "professional" fire department because many volunteers are professional. However, this lack of response to everyday calls could be the springboard to a career path for some firefighters in the future.

[jd783 64]

1 thing i see alot of is all these small towns and villages buying 100ft tower ladders when the tallest building in the district is 3 stories at best, very few have aerial ladders Why is this?

[x152 179]

Just a thought ----- Volunteer EMS is missing more calls. Volunteer fire turning out fewer members to calls. New fire apparatus prices are, on average, $500,000 for pumpers, $700,000-1,000,000 for aerials. New firehouses are rediculously big and rediculously expensive.

Is this like someone who is 5' tall buying the biggest truck around because he feels inadequate? Are we really hiding something from the public with smoke screens? Does EVERY fire district need to have rescues, two spare engines, tower ladders, and 5 chiiefs cars??

Maybe some young firefighters should realize that if someone put thier minds to it, sold some of this excess equipment, merged some fire ditricts, and streamlined fire budgets, many areas could have a paid fire service.

This is not the answer for every district. And notice I did not say "professional" fire department because many volunteers are professional. However, this lack of response to everyday calls could be the springboard to a career path for some firefighters in the future.

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Good points and well put. A good example to use for recent spending concerns could be found in the current thread about "wet-downs". There is an example of a nearby department in New Jersey operating at a wet-down. The video speaks for itself.........

[junior215 0]

Good point X. I am not advocating ending things like wetdowns and parades because they are part or the volunteer tradition. However, when the same departments consistently miss EMS calls and have few members for fire calls, this is where I have a problem.

At my medic job I have to wait sometimes 30 minutes or more for an ambulance because a certain department does not get crews. This same department has 3 firehouses, 4-5 engines, a tanker, a ladder, 3 ambulances, a rescue, and about 6 chiefs cars. Is there a problem here??? Why not a paid staff?? Are the funds going to the right place????

Also, why do paid departments have rigs that cost much less than volly rigs, yet do far more runs and are used 24 hrs a day??? Place Mt. Vernons Tower and Bedford Hills Tower side by side. What is the real difference, besides the escape ladder?? Made by the same company. One is no frills and one is all thrills. Then put a Yonkers tower next to Tarrytowns. Why in Gods name doesn't Yonkers have all the extras? Because the chief's in Yonkers, Mt. Vernon, White Plains, New Rochelle, Stamford, etc..... ARE ACTUALLY ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR SPENDING. Nobody ever questions most of the vollie spending.

As for tower, you do not have to climb them!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

Junior215

Who are you to ASSUME that every volunteer agency isn't accountable for their spending? Yes, I agree some rigs may be a little over the top, and some departments aren't accountable, but thats not the case in every department around. And also, the taxpayers and goverment have a role to play to, until people start speaking out against wasteful spending and slow response times, nothing is going to happen........Westchester taxpayers see the FD puttting on a fun parade and carnival, and think that FD is the best, and they get everything they want. Do you go to commisioners meetings in your hometown where you are a taxpayer, and speak up? If not, you're just as much a part of the problem as everyone else.

I think you're forgetting to include that cities don't have as much to spend on rigs then volunteers, since they often have other expenses not encountered on the volunteer end. Also, volunteer apparatus has a lot longer lifespan then career apparatus. A lot of the chrome and extras can be done without and money spent elsewhere, I absolutely agree. It's a shame that a lot of fire companies pride depends on how their rig performs, not how they respond and perform on the fireground.

So, getting back on the TOPIC, does anyone educate the public on their spending and plans?

Edited May 11, 2006 by ZeerR

[RichC 0]

ZeerR: Nice bringing this back on topic, and yes the road some are trying to go down with this topic does look familiar. When our department requested a replacement for a badly aged truck the item was requested in the budget (publicly disclosed document). Next we prepared a presentation before the town’s council when it appeared on the council meeting agenda beforehand (again publicly disclosed) The presentation was televised locally and repeated throughout the same month and covered in local papers. A second appearance before the council was held. This was again on a publicly disseminated agenda item, again televised live and repeated throughout the month with extended questions and answers. So yes, the purchase, the price and the supporting reasoning is questioned. It was a thorough process that allowed the public/citizen/taxpayer to be as educated as they choose to be.

[fire2141 33]

It's all about pride. Don't go comparing paid versus volunteer equipment. Obviously volunteers do not get paid. Our pay is the equipment in which we pride ourselves. I'm sure most towns and villages which maintain paid departments would rather pay the fire tax bill of a volly department inspite of the over the top equipment they own. That is the tradeoff. There is not much pride in ownership in owning a stripped down P.O.S. Also keep in mind that most departments keep there apperatus 15 years on average. Is a 300- 350,000 a lot of money when spread out to almost 20 years? I work as a paid hazmat tech for NYC. I can tell you that what they purchase for us is not what we want. Thank god for Homeland Security grants. I'm sure if a paid department was able to get what they wanted you might see them housing some outlandish equipment as well. With school taxes in the stratosphere and fire taxes so paultry I think this is a moot point.

[junior215 0]

OK, I will get back on topic. firecapt32 asked how we educate the public on spending. Well, how many citizens actually know the level of service that they have. Or the lack of service.

If you actually read my posts and noticed the tone, it is not a "paid is better" issue. However, it is about illusion. What is the sense of having pride in equipment when there is nobody there to man the equipment? I mentioned Bedford Hills. Their equipment is incredibly well kept and they come with force when you call them. I commend them. The issue I have is with departments that routinely miss calls. I think it is the responsibility of the commissioners, who are elected by the public, to address the issue of fiscal responsibility. The public needs responders, not overpriced apparatus and grotesquely large firehouses!!!!!!

[Guest]

I don't think this should be a forum to obviously bash specific departments. However, it is a good point to bring up. I think the issue of educating the public on department spending should also include the issue of educating the public on what their departments do - In my department we ran 1729 Fire/EMS calls for 2005. I bet if our 19,000 community members knew about those numbers they would all of sudden appreciate us more than they already do. I bet if they knew the amount of training time that was completed they would appreciate us more (again not to say they don't already). The fact is the communities are under-educated in many regards. My district is currently investigating the use of an updated, simple sign that alerts the public to the number of runs. Not a bad way to educate. As for educating the public on spending I agree a report should be issued annually. However, the fact that donations and fundraisers do go to social events should not be looked down upon - after all it's a nice way to show some appreciation to the countless men and women who put forth a great deal of their free time. As for unnecessary apparatus I couldn't agree more that does get out of control - It does need to be monitored.

[firecapt32 282]

some where we are getting off the topic but thats ok breathing fresh air into it helps---

DaveTFD you said you get "outsidedonation" that one you have to explain . If its any money that comes from the public they have a right to know where and what its being used for.

this topic isnt about beer buying for parades-- thats a whole other thread. alchol DOES NOT BELONG IN A FIRE STATION. THEY ARE PUBLIC BUILDING.

I wanted to know about the education process that department use to educate the taxpayers. I like the idea of a public report every year , its a accountability system that i thinkik works. but it should include more then just the number of runs. the citizens shouldnt have to dig or beg to get information form the fire department on where money is being spent.

[junior215 0]

Excellent feedback. Like I said earlier. there is room for parades and wetdowns. Unions firefighters have golf outings and dinners too. But get more info to the public somehow. I love fire and EMS and do not want to erode the foundation that has built both services......the volunteer. But, face reality. The real issue is to protect the taxpayers and residents. They pay, they should know, and they DESERVE OUR SERVICES!!!!!!!!!

[Porsha911gt3 8]

I don't think this should be a forum to obviously bash specific departments. However, it is a good point to bring up. I think the issue of educating the public on department spending should also include the issue of educating the public on what their departments do - In my department we ran 1729 Fire/EMS calls for 2005. I bet if our 19,000 community members knew about those numbers they would all of sudden appreciate us more than they already do. I bet if they knew the amount of training time that was completed they would appreciate us more (again not to say they don't already). The fact is the communities are under-educated in many regards. My district is currently investigating the use of an updated, simple sign that alerts the public to the number of runs. Not a bad way to educate. As for educating the public on spending I agree a report should be issued annually. However, the fact that donations and fundraisers do go to social events should not be looked down upon - after all it's a nice way to show some appreciation to the countless men and women who put forth a great deal of their free time. As for unnecessary apparatus I couldn't agree more that does get out of control - It does need to be monitored.

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Along the same lines, although we try to get the word out there, If you ask half the people in our town they think we're paid, We have 100% Volunteer plastered on everything, but all of the new people that are moving into our area from westchester and NYC don't care.

[JetPhoto 626]

1 thing i see alot of is all these small towns and villages buying 100ft tower ladders when the tallest building in the district is 3 stories at best, very few have aerial ladders Why is this?

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Use some simple math, just because they don't have a 6 or 7 story building doesn't mean that every 3 or 4 story structure sits next to the road. They may be 30 feet away from the building, now add the elevated hight of the structure, now move from one end to the other. Do you have that much extra?

I don't live in an area with too many tall buildings but that doesn't mean that every ground ladder will reach the roof. 100' ladders can be very useful like when you have a very long building fully involved and the only way you can get water on it is that nice tall ladder!

Do they need to cost a million plus, no they don't but that's a different topic.

[jd783 64]

What I am saying is if my fire respose area was made up of 98% 1 or 2 story buildings I would want money spent on Tankers or engines that could delivery water faster on the fire. Remember you are talking to firefighters on this board not JOE public that you are making a presentation to about buying a new tower ladder. I know if I worked or volenteered in a small town I would better serve the public with a new tanker then a new tower ladder Just my 2cents

[Guest]

What I am saying is if my fire respose area was made up of 98% 1 or 2 story buildings I would want money spent on Tankers or engines that could delivery water faster on the fire. Remember you are talking to firefighters on this board not JOE public that you are making a presentation to about buying a new tower ladder. I know if I worked or volenteered in a small town I would better serve the public with a new tanker then a new tower ladder Just my 2cents

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I can undertsand this argument ONLY if you had neither a ladder or a tanker..... then obviously a tanker in a district with no pipes is more valuable. However, a ladder has incredible potential even in a district with buildings no taller than 3 stories - as someone mentioned there are many houses built on grades or offset from the street. If you have the tankers I think the community would be deserving of a truck. Now, for the districts that have multiple ladders and barely use the one....well, that's a different story. Again, I think you owe it to your community to explain the rationale behind the purchase of new apparatus. However, we should not get carried away and have them vote on purchases.....simply put, they just do not know enough about the service to make those decisions.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

The simple answer to this is no, many fire departments do not openly allow the public into their books. Can you get the info if you want to...absolutely, all you need to do is get a copy of the municipal budget or district budget through the commissioners. As far as spending on equipment, that should be the biggest item line next to salaries if you have career personnel. Many districts that I have been around could afford career personnel to supplment themselves if they budgeted correctly. As far as apparatus, an aerial device should be in every fleet. Even if you only have 1-2 story residential and commerical buildings. With todays building construction of lightweight truss roofing systems you should try to ventilate off an aerial device at all cost. So there is a place for them. There are districts which spend wisely and give their firefighters the best possible equipment to protect them. Then there is the flip side where they spend 5 million on a firehouse like we saw in the Newsday articles. If I lived in that district, I'd have to ask why do you need a hang out like that instead of doing something to up protection like using it for career staff and so on. How many extrication tools or TIC's does a department need? ( I didn't say Hurst because its no the only tool out there and I personally don't care for them, lol) But this is based on need. At a minimum you should have at least 2 extrication tools on scene. If you want a third more power to you, I'd sign that check if I were holding the book. As far as TIC's, just like generators I think every apparatus should have one, same with gas meters. Self sufficiency is the goal we should shoot for with common sense equipment. When your all volunteer you also can't put all your eggs in one basket with the chance that you can't get all the equipment you expect out or out in a close succession in time. And mutual aid while there should be a rarity not a supplement to your system.

[firecapt32 282]

thanks als for getting us back to the right area of the subject. Does the public know what we spend their money on?? pretty simple how do weo justify buying whe we do?? where do we spend the money? how much is spent on "enteraining" things--parades, comventions, trips, non fire stuff that uses public money.

[res6cue 67]

The sad truth is, the vast majority of the public doesn't really care about the gadgets we buy. They only care that we show up when they need us. Of course, once there's anything negative brought to light, ala Long Island, well then of course there will be public outcry over the wasting of tax dollars. I don't mean to be cynical, but that's how it is in the real world. Most people take an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude of indifference. We have open houses annually as well as a year round fire prevention program. We try to educate the public as to what equipment we have, why we have it and how it works. Most times you get blank stares back from the few that do show up, and believe me, we try to keep the terminology simple and understandable.

Now as far as the donations going to "extracurricular" activities, that's a whole other can of worms right there. My personal opinion is that in today's day and age, there is no place for booze in a fire company, I don't care if it is volunteer. We want to be seen as professional in every way, yet we still have the social club, back room bar getting liquored up attitude. I don't think they can coexist. It's one thing to go out as a group off premise and throw a few back, but to do it right in the firehouse is asking for trouble. These ain't the good ole days anymore.

[ex-commish 490]

thanks als for getting us back to the  right area of the subject. Does the public know  what we spend their money on?? pretty simple how do weo justify buying whe we do??  where  do we spend the money?  how much is spent on "enteraining" things--parades, comventions, trips, non fire stuff that uses public money.

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The public should know what on and how money is spent.

[jd783 64]

Yes I know I am getting off track what I am trying to say is ,why buy a very expensive tower ladder when you cannot use it to its full potential, for example if you district is a small 1or 2 story ranch houses with no hydrants how are you going to supply an elevated master stream (min of 350GPM) YES all Depts need an aerial device but it does not have to be the soup to nuts tower ladder. Question ? Do any Depts outside of the larger cities have a rear mount aerial. This is my last post on this subject Sorry to get off topic

Edited May 14, 2006 by jd783

[Guest]

You certainly can supply an aerial without hydrants -

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Your not that off subject and as I stated in my last post, the elevated master stream is usually the least used item on the aerial. It is mostly when it can be used as such as a stable ventilation platform to keep members safely off the roof decking material. I've vented from both and there is nothing more comfortable or easier in my opinion/experience then venting from a tower ladder. Also remember when the ladder goes up for water the building comes down. It is often better to use the master stream device up and in that down.

[Monty 35]

Question ? Do any Depts outside of the larger cities have a rear mount aerial. This is my last post on this subject Sorry to get off topic

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Here are a few: Ossining has two rear mount sticks (Ladders 41 & 42), Croton has a rear mount Tower Ladder 44, Peekskill Tower Ladder 45, Verplanck Tower Ladder 46

[johnvv 20]

ALS (AKA Roof Shepard),

I agree that usually when the Master stream goes up, the building comes down. However that is not always the case. On one occasion while fighting a large building fire that was "getting away from us", the Incident Commander opted to remove all personnel from the building, and use a master stream to apply a large volume of water for a short time. We then finished up with an interior attack after the master stream was shut down. It proved to be an effective tactic. In that instance I believed it saved the building. The damage was contained to the attic area.

To extinguish a fire, the appropriate amount of water must be applied. The amount of water that can be applied at a fire is also directly proportional to the amount of firefighters at the scene. A master stream from an aerial can provide the correct amount of water with minimal manpower.