Westchester County Airport Drill

[WAS967 97]

Anyone go to the airport drill today? Any thoughts?

[hudson144 150]

ok this can be good,I recently sat in on the table top drill at the airport and I saw many things that needed to be fixed. Hopefully from trial and error today might have been good to bring out the areas that need to be addressed where they might be dificient. I could not attend the drill but would love to hear about it here on this forum. Please try to keep it positive without finger pointing or bashing. Through constuctive comments others might learn and things may change----let it rip!!!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Good point Hudson but we all know the deal for those of us who have been around for a while. Big Pink Fuzzy blanket of denial. No matter how big or small, there have been problems with the plan for the airport for years. The true answer is they should have a dedicated CFR department at that airport for the traffic that has grown there, with personnel that have the CFR certification and can solely dedicate themselves to such an incident. It will also allow experienced airport firefighters to be one of the leaders of an incident there to streamline the incident command aspect.

[WAS967 97]

It will also allow experienced airport firefighters to be one of the leaders of an incident there to streamline the incident command aspect.

Bingo.

[Guest]

about 2 weeks ago i was at the airport for a plane in distress call , 1) I saw an airport type engine follow the plane when it did land and the bus and trucks in front of me just piked up and left without any one telling me ,my partner and another bus behind us that we could go. As far as we knew the plane never came. hmm no finger pointing, ok i wont but i will say that the agency that always fights to be primary at these things (airport jobs) was the bus in front of me and left without saying a word , but I wont point any fingers ....lol

[Guest]

Good job everyone, sorry we werent there this year.

Edited May 6, 2006 by ccbub31

[hudson144 150]

I always wondered why there is not a fulltime CFR dept, it basically comes down to the classification of the airport,in this case the airport does not qualify for a fulltime dept. After a few trips to the air port I can say that I am impressed with the airport ops personel. They are all CFR trained and take their jobs very serious. The apparatus is top knotch and the system of ops people responding appears to work, what I do see is what happens after the airport units run out of agent, this is where the coordination of mutual aid needs to be carefully planned out.

[cas2383 22]

You have to remember too the capabilities of the responding depts don't match what a Arff dept can do in these types of situations, we merely support their activities and aid as best we can. Plus if you think about it what is the chances of a plane emergency landing at the airport? We've seen in the past year that a true crash has a better chance occurinig outside the grounds. And if they're any farthur away they can land elsewhere im assuming(im not a pilot) We get notified if they're 15 miles out if something is wrong if were lucky, then what? We have a 10 min travel time at least, we cant compare to a plane who is going to touchdown, who is covering that distance doing 90-150 mph....Even if we had shorter distance to travel. A full time FD there would def. help, but is it logistically feesible? The county gov't has that to decide. It is great to see however that we are trying to work out the best plan possible given what circumstances we are now delt. Nothing wrong with trying to improve in my book.

Edited May 7, 2006 by cas2383

[nm54 0]

All the personal tha work as airport firefighters at the airport are trained to CFR the go down south and take the full CFR course.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I am from out of County and had always thought the Airport had an on site fire crew...what is the response plan for the airport?? I'm sorry if this was disscussed in an earlier thread somewhere..be safe.

[huzzie59 75]

What was the drill about?

What agencies were involved?

[WAS967 97]

We've seen in the past year that a true crash has a better chance occurinig outside the grounds. And if they're any farthur away they can land elsewhere im assuming(im not a pilot) We get notified if they're 15 miles out if something is wrong if were lucky, then what?

This might be the perception from the outside, but in reality the most dangerous part of a flight is the landing. A LOT can go wrong from landing gear malfunctions, ice on the runway, wind shear/cross winds, etc etc. Look at recent incidents at Teterboro (tho I think one happened at takeoff). The FF team from HPN (the airport for those who don't know the code) DOES respond off site. They were at the cessna that crash landed in IBM's parking lot in 2002.

What was the drill about?

What agencies were involved?

Plane crash. Approximately 70 or so souls on board (I never did get exact numbers - reports varied), 53 survivors in various states of trauma. Fire visible to responding units.

FDs: Airport Department, PortChester ("incident command"), RyeBrook, Armonk, Purchase....maybe Greenwich?

Ambulances: Armonk FD, PCRVAC, GEMS, WEMS, ChapVAC, MKVAC, Transcare, HVAC.

PDs: WCPD, none others noticed.

A lot of setup was involved and I was impressed overall with the execution of the drill by the organizers.

[Jybehofd 85]

What was the drill about?

What agencies were involved?

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The drill was an plane down on the airport. A plow truck with some large black drainage pipe all around. The drill it self went ok I think, but there seemed to be a communication gap between what happened and discussed at the table top and the lack of info to the actuall people that were there that day. It wasn't a big gap but i would have liked to know what some things were suppose to be. Like some of the black piping that was laying every where. I assume it was wreckage but not sure what type (burning, smuldering, twisted...) Being on the ems side was intresting. Big lack of safety officer on scene, seemed to be little or no coms between fire and ems, when some water ran right through the tarps for red, yellow, and green. After the drill I heard it was Hot JP5 mix with foam. If so alot of patients and emts and other staff then needed to be decon. about 20 or so from from my guess. There were also some small other things that need to be at least talked about and learned but that is for the debrief.

Agencies involved

I am sorry if I leave anyone out but I am taking this from memory.

Fire: ARFF both trucks from the airport, Armonk, Purchase, and Port Chester

EMS: Armonk 2 buses, Harrision VAC 1 bus I think 1 flycar, Port Chester/Rye VAC (I think one bus) , Greenwich EMS one bus?, Transcare 1 bus 1 flycar, WEMS 2 buses 1 flycar, and Chappaqua VAC one bus, Not sure on Valhala VAC

[Guest]

I heard from someone that was involved that as usual this was not an EMS drill, there was no EMS command the transportation officer was not I.D.'d the triage officer was triaging, It was as if EMS didnt count and by the way did any one see the T-Shirts that were given out No EMS involvement on the shirt either,Gee we dont even belong on a T-shirt...........................I am not anti any one I am pro EMS...................

[WAS967 97]

After the drill I heard it was Hot JP5 mix with foam. If so alot of patients and emts and other staff then needed to be decon. about 20 or so from from my guess. There were also some small other things that need to be at least talked about and learned but that is for the debrief.

I'd love to go to the debrief and hear the overall summation of how things went. I'm with you in that it would have been nice to know that the black piping represented. I too wondered what the "runoff" comprised....from the get go I assumed it was "bad stuff" until otherwise determined. It sucked that the runoff flooded the treatment area - that should have been moved sooner - tho I know the gradation of the pavement would have been missed by a lot of people. And right on about the decon - tho for the serious patients you have the consider the seriousness of thier injuries and wether they can be deconed at the hospital - tho the question arises - would it be safe to transport a patient that is contaminated with the stuff.

It would have been nice to the see the IC wearing something that indicated that he was the IC. Wearing a vest that says "Sector 1" means nothing. I also found the fact that the IC and the SAFETY OFFICER were standing in the middle of the hazardous runoff. Should I assume it's safe just because they're standing in it? No way in hell.

Edited May 8, 2006 by WAS967

[ny10570 745]

I heard from someone that was involved that as usual this was not an EMS drill, there was no EMS command the transportation officer was not I.D.'d the triage officer was triaging, It was as if EMS didnt count and by the way did any one see the T-Shirts that were given out No EMS involvement  on the shirt either,Gee we dont even belong on a T-shirt...........................I am not anti any one I am pro EMS...................

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Actually, the larger focus was on EMS. Other than the airport FF's fighting the fireand the local FD's hitting the hydrant all FF's were assigned to assist EMS. There just wasn't eny direction. Instead of all of the EMT's and Medics going from triage to treatment, many had to start transporting to the treatment areas. Most of the FF's have never experianced this type of operation(5 guys to carry one patient) so EMS was heavily involved there instead of in the treatment and final transport areas. The lack of easily identified command officers was just one of several mistakes uncovered in the drill. They were there, they just weren't easily identifiable or where they were suppose to be necisarilly. And yes, the shirt had two ff's on it. So what?! Its a free crappy shirt that will most likely end up exactly where it should be...covered in grease or paint in the bottom of a closet.

[WAS967 97]

I thought I saw a few shirts floating around with Fire and EMS symbols on the front. Maybe they were a limited edition.

[EMT Lady 0]

I am a volunteer with WEVR (Westchester Emergency Volunteer Reserves) and we were at the drill to act as victims. This was the first drill I participated in. In no way am I being critical of what any of the EMS people did especially since I am one of them, but from my point of view as a victim it appeared as if there was no sense of urgency and being on the far end of the disaster area it seemed to take a very long time before anyone even got to triage us. We heard afterward that the victims at the beginning of the crash area where the emergency people were entering were being triaged 2 and 3 times. I can't understand why they didn't sent EMS people to various locations of the disaster area to tend to more people. After finally getting triaged we were then left again for quite awhile in the hot sun before anyone got back to us. I was then moved to another location by 4 firefighters and placed back on the ground. I was then moved to a stretcher and moved again and the large laceration on my arm still had not been treated. Things just seemed somewhat unorganized, but it was still interesting to watch the various agencies working together to get things done.

As for the other shirts you may have seen they might have been the ones given to the WEVR members and they do have the WEVR logo on the front.

[Monty 35]

....

victims at the beginning of the crash area where the emergency people were entering were being triaged 2 and  3 times. 

.....

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It's been a while since I did my EMT training and refresher, but as part of triaging a MCI like this, isn't it advisable to use colored tags or something similar?

Hopefully a lot of these lessons will be taken in to consideration and will be used to improve the process. Fingers crossed

[rescue83 2]

does any one have pictures of the drill?

the drill was a good learning experience but i feel there should have been more EMT's i was watching the greens and i had seen a few that should of not been a green and then i tryed to find one emt and it took like 10-20 min before i could get one and then that emt ran on me.

[ny10570 745]

Hopefully a lot of these lessons will be taken in to consideration and will be used to improve the process. Fingers crossed 

←

The tags were used. As for people being triaged repeatedly, I don't know what that was about. There was an occasion or two where I went over to a person and had just begun my assesment when I realized they had all ready been tagged, and then quickly moved on. I personally never saw anyone repeating triage.

does any one have pictures of the drill?

the drill was a good learning experience but i feel there should have been more EMT's i was watching the greens and i had seen a few that should of not been a green and then i tryed to find one emt and it took like 10-20 min before i could get one and then that emt ran on me.

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In the real world there would have been many more EMT's. 50+ pts and only about 10 abulances. More importantly, the EMT's weren't properly utilized. After triage, they should have all been congregated around the treatment area and put to work. Send the FF's out to retrieve people from the field.

[JohnnyOV 2]

It's been a while since I did my EMT training and refresher, but as part of triaging a MCI  like this, isn't it advisable to use colored tags or something similar?

Hopefully a lot of these lessons will be taken in to consideration and will be used to improve the process. Fingers crossed 

←

Triage tags werent used? No blame be placed, but isnt one of the first steps in an MCI to triage the patients useing colored tags?

I know I wasnt there, but was a different system put in place to subsititute the colored tags?

[WAS967 97]

The tags were used. As for people being triaged repeatedly, I don't know what that was about. There was an occasion or two where I went over to a person and had just begun my assesment when I realized they had all ready been tagged, and then quickly moved on. I personally never saw anyone repeating triage.

Just because a person has been triaged doesn't mean you can't triage them again. Triage should take 30 seconds MAX. I retriaged several people. People's statuses change. Several Reds we declared Dead and moved on. There were a few Reds that were really Yellow, etc etc. Albiet this was all in the treatment area. No reason you can't retriage to make sure they're in the right place then proceed with treatment.

[meat441 43]

Lots of questions need to be answered first. Who was the lead EMS agency? Who became the EMS branch Director? Who became the Triage Group Supervisor? Who became the Treatment Group Supervisor? (preferably a paramedic). Who became the Transport Group Supervisor? Who became the EMS Staging Officer? All these positions would be the basics for running a smooth EMS M.C.I. operation. Could EMS have it's own Safety Officer who has a working knowledge of EMS operations and procedures inorder to prevent problems like 5 or less firefighters trying to carry a victim from triage to the treatment area? (Yes). For a 50 patient incident it should be comfortable for 2 to 4 EMT's to be utilized for triage. 2 of these EMT's could be left in the triage area and direct the firefighters into which patients are to be moved to treatment and in what order. Let us not forget that as EMS personnel we can adapt and guide others. Would firefighters expect us to know how to operate a pumper or ladder truck. Then how can we expect others to know EMS operations at M.C.I.s...

[WAS967 97]

Did anyone go to the debrief? I'd like to know what was discussed.

[ny10570 745]

Would firefighters expect us to know how to operate a pumper or ladder truck. Then how can we expect others to know EMS operations at M.C.I.s...

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Excellent point. We in EMS take so many things we do for granted...like operating a stretcher. I saw a few FF's trying to extend the legs on a stretcher with no luck until someone cam ealong to help. It's not their fault, they've just never been shown how to do it. But its things liek that that can quickly become big problems.

[calhobs 110]

Dont forget everyone this was a drill. This is why we have these things let the mistakes happen there not at the really thing. But one thing I have notice about drills there seem to be alot of ICS probelms. Was there many problems with ICS at this drill?

[Guest]

Lots of questions need to be answered first. Who was the lead EMS agency? Who became the EMS branch Director? Who became the Triage Group Supervisor? Who became the Treatment Group Supervisor? (preferably a paramedic). Who became the Transport Group Supervisor? Who became the EMS Staging Officer? All these positions would be the basics for running a smooth EMS M.C.I. operation. Could EMS have it's own Safety Officer who has a working knowledge of EMS operations and procedures inorder to prevent problems like 5 or less firefighters trying to carry a victim from triage to the treatment area? (Yes). For a 50 patient incident it should be comfortable for 2 to 4 EMT's to be utilized for triage. 2 of these EMT's could be left in the triage area and direct the firefighters into which patients are to be moved to treatment and in what order. Let us not forget that as EMS personnel we can adapt and guide others. Would firefighters expect us to know how to operate a pumper or ladder truck. Then how can we expect others to know EMS operations at M.C.I.s...

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these are the points I am trying to make, and I think armonk was the lead "EMS" agency, look you guys can get mad at me all you like but the reality is EMS was not the priority at this drill,dont get me wrong I blame EMS not fire for this, I pray to god that a plane never goes down cause we are in trouble , anyone here every work a real MCI in a place like say NYC a place that has some command structure? I have and I gotta tell ya we in westchester (EMS wise) during a real mci fly by the seat of our pants I am speaking from experience not from listening to a scanner and reading JEMS. we need to relize that westchester is a target where do most people who work in the city live?. So wake up people it's not about wanting to play after "my real job" It's about if the people I love get sick or injured what will happen??...........I am not anti-anything I am pro-EMS.............be safe and go home after your tour

[ny10570 745]

Dont forget everyone this was a drill. This is why we have these things let the mistakes happen there not at the really thing. But one thing I have notice about drills there seem to be alot of ICS probelms. Was there many problems with ICS at this drill?

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You are absolutely right. ICS was THE problem. There was no easily identifiable command area. It was very hard to idnetify anyone incharge. And those who were suppose to be in charge we often getting involved in the hands on work. I think this is just a result of the inexperiance EMS has with working within a multi agency emergency. Any significant alarm and the FD's are pulling in outside help. How often are there multiple EMS agencies opperating at an incident for an extended period of time? There's alot of focus on the FD's adapting and using NIMS. I believe EMS is in much more urgent need of help.

EMS was not the priority at this drill,dont get me wrong I blame EMS not fire for this,

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You mentioned this earlier but didn't elaborate. how was this a fire drill and not EMS. Other than the first FD's hitting hydrants and the Airport FD fighting the fire, everyone was directed towards EMS. There was no real EMS IC structure but the majority of the observers and time was spent on EMS.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Some really excellent points brought up in this thread, I've really enjoyed everyones input and ideas...keep it up!!

One thing that stands out, yes FD's have focused on NIMS. Everyone should, any type of involved incident with fire/EMS/Law Enforcement has the need for unified command. There should be no one agency in charge of all. Everyone has an IC in one command center and they account for their personnel and coordinate efforts with the other IC's for coordination of needs.

The NIMS training is out there for everyone. Many are online as self-study through FEMA and you can get it through DES and the state. Phone calls and educating members of where they can get such training is key. Make it a requirement for all members to at least get to the I-200 level online or get someone to come in and give it to your members and drill on it. Get it so officers have to get into the I300/400 level, it is out there an available.