Keep Back 200 Feet

[Guest DFFD227]

OK...so I was driving to work today, and a fire truck was out on the road, stopped at a traffic light. I noticed the car behind the fire truck pulled right on his @$$...probably a foot away from the rear. Meanwhile there is a big sign that says "KEEP BACK 200 FEET". I've noticed this many times, people seem to drive up fire trucks @$$'s...So my purpose of this forum is, does the sign KEEP BACK XXX FEET, really mean anything anymore, or did it even mean anything?

[ems-buff 81]

Nope i still keep back just for the simlpe fact that if they get a call the need room to pull out and respone, but then again we are in the feild so we know this fact. The common person dosen't.

[cas2383 22]

I know it is supposed to warn people behind to leave the rig enough room in case they have to make a sudden stop or perhaps make numerous stops looking for streets, fire hydrants or house addresses. Obviously the signs don't work. You still get the jerks who follow behind because they can now go around the traffic just as fast as you can.

[res6cue 67]

It doesn't mean a thing. The public is either completely oblivious to it or tries to take advantage of tailing us through traffic and lights. As someone who has had to mash on the brakes or make evasive manuevers more times than I could ever count, I sure wish the public would take those warning signs seriously. I can recall one or two incidents in my dept where someone has actually rear ended a truck while it was responding. No surprise the motorist was irate that we caused them to have an accident. And just when you thought they couldn't get any more pissed, it's classic when the PD issues them a ticket for following too close. Speaking of which, if I have someone on my tail too close, and it's a BS alarm, I'll slow down just enough to keep them there while I radio the PD to have a car intercept and pull them over.

[capt2102 64]

Several years ago I was working when one of our Eng.s had to back up in order to make a hydt. (front suction broke). A guy in a BRAND NEW Bmw was 2' off the rear bumper in the blind spot, $15,000 in front end damage. I then asked PD to write him a ticket for the 200' Law and they did. I also believe it was 2 points on his licence.

[x635 4,066]

Although I'm aware of the current purpose the sign serves, I was always under the impression that its origins were when firefighters used to ride the tailboard, it was so if they fell off a car had time to avoid them.

[Guest WolfEMT]

The same people who don't obey the 200 foot rule are usually the same ones who don't obey Blue lights on responder vehicles and who don't pull to the right and STOP for an approaching emergency vehicle. Personally, instead of having so many DWI-related questions that basically repeat themselves ad nauseum throughout the exam, maybe have one or two related to proper etiquette when dealing with emergency vehicles?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

What is there to obey with a blue light? Absolutely nothing, its a courtesy light, so if they extend no courtesy there isn't much to say. To be honest you can get to where you need without the blue light just as fast and looking at some vehicles you have no doubt as to why some people either have no clue what they are for or could care less with the whacker mobiles out there.

Second, that 200' sign is basically worthless and always has been. Many apparatus don't even have them anymore. If someone wants to ride on my rear so be it, I just want to get to the alarm safe and my PD is too busy to worry about someone getting a ticket. If you're responding to a "BS" alarm and your gonna go slow to have a PD intercept, then your lights and siren should not be on because you are not responding to a true emergency which is a requirement to be granted the expemptions under NYS V & T law. What is worse then civilians tailgating an apparatus is members of the department itself. Perhaps a ticket or suspension for those whom enjoy doing that would help that matter also. Either that or you should be cancelled enroute.

Apparatus operations 101 is you always leave enough room from the vehicle in front of you to pull out. It gets difficult, like the old saying if they can't see your mirrors you can't see them, you have to constantly keep track of your mirrors to see who is coming up behind you.

[res6cue 67]

If you're responding to a "BS" alarm and your gonna go slow to have a PD intercept, then your lights and siren should not be on because you are not responding to a true emergency which is a requirement to be granted the expemptions under NYS V & T law. Either that or you should be cancelled enroute.

Right, because YOUR dept or you have never responded lights and sirens to nuisance automatic alarms at the same locations on a consistant basis I presume? That is what I mean by "BS alarm", but until proven otherwise, we respond lights and sirens, just like 99% of all agencies. But, thanks for the pointers.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

No one told you to take it personal, I was making a point on your statement.

Secondly, once a 10-20 is given, lights go off, and if my siren is on or winding it gets shut off and the siren brake is applied. You made one statement that says if I'm going to a "BS" alarm I slow down....but then you say but until proven otherwise we respond lights and sirens. So if it isn't proven otherwise, why slow down and worry bout someone on your tail, instead of just getting to the call and letting it go? It isn't a nuisance alarm, exactly like you said until proven otherwise. I am a huge advocate for on the quiet response for such calls and many other calls we are dispatched to. Anyone on here that knows me well enough or has sat through my EVOC course knows this. If someone is on my @ss I take note of it and forget about it. I concentrate on getting there safely. That is my only point.

[Porsha911gt3 8]

once a 10-20 is given

So ahhh.... can we leave things in non 60-control terms so the rest of us can understand what others are saying lol

[Guest WolfEMT]

What is there to obey with a blue light?

See NJSA 39:4-91. Law applies to blue lights as well.

[Guest ksneubec]

To be honest you can get to where you need without the blue light just as fast and looking at some vehicles you have no doubt as to why some people either have no clue what they are for or could care less with the whacker mobiles out there.

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Could you try that sentence again? I'm not sure what you mean.

Edited May 7, 2006 by ksneubec

[Shantz02 0]

When you use a blue light to respond to a call, you still have to obey ALL traffic laws. You are not granted the exceptions given to the apparatus. Therefore, it should take you the same amount of time to respond with a blue light as it would if you didnt have a blue light.

[TRUCK6018 50]

There seems to be a communication gap here between NY and NJ.

We all know, in NY blue lights mean nothing, a courtasy, period!

Under NEW JERSEY STATE LAW, drivers of non-emergency vehicles shall yield the right of way to the vehicle of any member of a volunteer fire company or a volunteer first aid squad or rescue squad displaying emergency warning lights as in the same manner as authorized emergency vehicles (N.J.S.A. 39:4-92). Additionally, a permit needs to be granted by DMV to use a blue light.

[bob803 1]

Nope i still keep back just for the simlpe fact that if they get a call the need room to pull out and respone, but then again we are in the feild so we know this fact. The common person dosen't.

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The rig should keep back from the car infront if they get a run they should be able to pull around.

[Guest]

What is there to obey with a blue light?  Absolutely nothing, its a courtesy light, so if they extend no courtesy there isn't much to say.  To be honest you can get to where you need without the blue light just as fast and looking at some vehicles you have no doubt as to why some people either have no clue what they are for or could care less with the whacker mobiles out there.

Second, that 200' sign is basically worthless and always has been.  Many apparatus don't even have them anymore.  If someone wants to ride on my rear so be it, I just want to get to the alarm safe and my PD is too busy to worry about someone getting a ticket.  If you're responding to a "BS" alarm and your gonna go slow to have a PD intercept, then your lights and siren should not be on because you are not responding to a true emergency which is a requirement to be granted the expemptions under NYS V & T law.  What is worse then civilians tailgating an apparatus is members of the department itself.  Perhaps a ticket or suspension for those whom enjoy doing that would help that matter also.  Either that or you should be cancelled enroute. 

Apparatus operations 101 is you always leave enough room from the vehicle in front of you to pull out.  It gets difficult, like the old saying if they can't see your mirrors you can't see them, you have to constantly keep track of your mirrors to see who is coming up behind you.

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Couldnt have said it better! Wacker lights are worthless....no one pulls over for me and im driving a big white ambulance with all sorts of lights and a siren....what makes one think a dash light will fare any better

[JScott128 41]

There seems to be a communication gap here between NY and NJ. 

We all know, in NY blue lights mean nothing, a courtasy, period! 

Under NEW JERSEY STATE LAW, drivers of non-emergency vehicles shall yield the right of way to the vehicle of any member of a volunteer fire company or a volunteer first aid squad or rescue squad displaying emergency warning lights as in the same manner as authorized emergency vehicles (N.J.S.A. 39:4-92).  Additionally, a permit needs to be granted by DMV to use a blue light.

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Truck6018, you are reading the wrong section of title 39. NJ law is similar to NY. NJSA 39:3-54.12 is very clear: "nothing contained herein is intended to grant to any member of a volunteer fire company or a volunteer first aid or rescue squad any privileges or exemptions denied to the drivers of other vehicles, and such members displaying emergency warning lights shall drive with due regard for the safety of all persons and shall obey all the traffic laws of this state". The statute does also state that other drivers should yield to the blue lights, but you must still obey all traffic laws.

Scott

[ex-commish 490]

Truck6018, you are reading the wrong section of title 39. NJ law is similar to NY.  NJSA 39:3-54.12 is very clear: "nothing contained herein is intended to grant to any member of a volunteer fire company or a volunteer first aid or rescue squad any privileges or exemptions denied to the drivers of other vehicles, and such members displaying emergency warning lights shall drive with due regard for the safety of all persons and shall obey all the traffic laws of this state".    The statute does also state that other drivers should yield to the blue lights, but you must still obey all traffic laws.

Scott

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As an EVOC instructor I am constantly reminding my students about due regard. Very strong words!!!!!

[Guest]

Drivers where I work don't yield. Its never an easy response. The best part is when they follow you into a block. The rig stops in the street and there's no way for them to get around you. They sit there with this look on their face as if to say now what. I think to myself now you wait until we're done. But if you kept back 200ft you would'ent of followed us into the block.

[sbvfd596 2]

I've noticed two things. Yes I have found myself within more than 500 feet from the rear step of a firetruck once, and have than thought to myself, what good is the sign, if everyone does it? And what the hell am I doing so close?

Secondly, I have seen lots of PD CARS tailgaiting emergency vehicles, and I have seen cops parked on hydrants, and in the way a lot of the times. What is the polocies on cops getting in the way?. No offense to all PO's out there .

[ems731 0]

No one follows the signs anymore. We have a KEEP BACK 50 FEET sign on the back of our ambulances and people still pull up right behind us even when we're going lights and sirens, amazing right? Sometimes when we park we have people how will pull up and park right behind us which makes it hard to get going again. They don't talk about this stuff anymore in driver's education which they should.

[nyemt131411 3]

They don't talk about this stuff anymore in driver's education which they should.

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Driver's education . . . .kind of an oxymoron, huh? I know it sure is in Vegas. I wouldn't know what to do if i didnt seee 3 or 4 mva's on the way into work.......every day!

Out here the sign on rigs may as well say " come closer - hook a tow rope on!" Unfortunately, just like alot of other booming cities, people yielding to ANYBODY rolling code (PD, FIRE, EMS, whoever) is a life experience. Just yesterday's commute.... NHP cruiser was L&S,DIRECTLY behind a . . . . driver......took a good 1/4 mile before pinhead swerved over to the side!!! It gets even more interesting when they jump the median.......

[Guest]

I was driving back to the station when we got toned out to another call. i was at a stop sign and had to back up about 10 feet because coincidently we were on location, but before doing so, i remembered seeing a blue rav4 pulling out of his/her driveway about a fourth of a mile back. so i asked my passanger and the crew in the back if they saw a car behind me. everyone said it looked clear, so i slowly, as in literally inch by inch did i start backing up when i heard a honk. if the car wasn't literally bumper to bumper, i think one of the guys in my crew would've seen the car.

however, i know that this is bad driving on my part considering that whenever you do back up, you should always have a spotter, however, it's like everything, when you do it so many times, you become lazy about it and i guess even if you are backing up just 10 feet, you always need a spotter.

i also drive the ambulance during certain crew shifts and what i absolutely hate is people tailgating me whenever im transporting someone to the hospital. obviously, i radio in PD, but you'll always get some a****** who wants to look at what's going on inside.

[Jason762 2]

however, i know that this is bad driving on my part considering that whenever you do back up, you should always have a spotter, however, it's like everything, when you do it so many times, you become lazy about it and i guess even if you are backing up just 10 feet, you always need a spotter.

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That is correct that is bad driving on your part. Just because you claim you do it a lot (I'm not sure what your definition of a lot is), is no excuse not to have a spotter everytime. It only takes a few seconds and minimal energy, but it will save you hours of paperwork and headaches. We require a spotter everytime the rig backs up, whether it be 10 feet or a mile.

[Monty 35]

Secondly, once a 10-20 is given, lights go off, and if my siren is on or winding it gets shut off and the siren brake is applied. 

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Just to mess things up, and it's probably off topic but the SOP (such that it is) of at least one agency in Westchester is to respond to 10-20 calls with lights on and NO sirens.

Now, that's really confusing! You can't exercise privileges of emergency vehicles, but again your average driver expects you to cross over the yellow line, go through red lights etc, etc.

[JohnnyOV 2]

That is correct that is bad driving on your part.  Just because you claim you do it a lot (I'm not sure what your definition of a lot is), is no excuse not to have a spotter everytime.  It only takes a few seconds and minimal energy, but it will save you hours of paperwork and headaches.  We require a spotter everytime the rig backs up, whether it be 10 feet or a mile.

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In my department in FL, they dont take this lightly...If the driver is caught without a spotter and he is a career guy, instant 2 day suspension w/o pay...if its a volly, 15 days suspension.

Now if they hit something with or without a spotter (spotter gets the same penalty)...the career guy gets 1 week suspension w/o pay and put up for review, and the volly gets 30 days suspension and put up for review.

[Jason762 2]

Now if they hit something with or without a spotter (spotter gets the same penalty)...the career guy gets 1 week suspension w/o pay and put up for review, and the volly gets 30 days suspension and put up for review.

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1 week suspension w/o pay??? That seems a little harsh. What does the union have to say about that? I don't know what type of community you're in, but up here there are so many tight streets (sometimes on dead ends) with parking on both sides and traffic everywhere, that the occasional accident is a way of life. I agree the driver should be under review, and disciplinary action is needed for chronic offenders, but the 1 week suspension w/o pay seems extreme.