Elections, or poularity contests?

[firemoose827 324]

Well, we had our annual meeting and dept elections last night....or, should I say, our "Popularity Contest". We now have a new 3rd asst chief, who was our capt last year and a Lt the year before. But thats it, only two years in as line off and he is now our asst chief.

One of our 2 vacancies at Lt has been filled with a guy who hates training classes and thinks our dept drills is all we need. But he is qualified on ALL equipment, and therefore eligible for the spot.

In a past thread the topic of tradition was discussed, and its a sensitive issue with me. Has tradition gone out the window? Where are the days when members wanted to train, and attended classes or went to the academy regularly? Where are the days when "Probies" knew and understood their part in the fire service and RESPECTED the experienced members? Where are the days when you had to get EXPERIENCE in order to be an officer and you had to work your way up the ladder, and it was a respectible position to be in?

Now-a-days you get a 17 year old who joins the dept, and immediately struts around the fire house as if they own it. Why? Because their daddy was a ff for 20+ years? Because they might have just taken FFI and think they are an overnight miracle FF? If I had done that I would have immediately been put in my place and embarrassed in front of the dept to make a point. Im so tired of going to calls and offering a new member advice and getting told "Well, I TOOK this class and I know what Im doing!" Todays fire service is in trouble, the loss of the tradition and respect will cause a lot of problems.

Im sorry, I rambled there for a minute. Anyways, another popularity contest was won. I am the dept Safety Officer now though. How about everyone else? Do you have the same problems with elections? Does any dept out there still honor tradition, and if so, are you looking for a new member?

Stay safe and keep tradition and respect alive...its what keeps us alive.

In the words of my explorer advisor when I was 15...."I'd rather go into a burning building with someone who's constantly learning, rather than someone who thinks he knows it all."

Jonesy

[ohbdow1 6]

I know that the Volunteer service does not want to hear about "JPR's", but for most departments, they already have some sort of a requirement for an Officer position. Sounds like your department needs to have a by-laws meeting and break open the taboo book for volunteer's (NFPA) and look at the JPR's for Officers. Wether we like it or not, NFPA has been cited in court casses and if you need more ammo........CALL LAIRDSVILLE FD.....that is if they are still open. We need professionalism in what we do. We are not an Elk's Club with a fire engine. The public expects more. Our brothers and sisters on the fire ground expect more.

[mfc2257 464]

Elections are definatly becomming popularity contests. There is an example of this going on right now in Westchester County that I wish I could comment more specifically on, but because I'm in Florida and not directly involved any more I'll let it come to bear through other channels as the folks directly related see fit to discuss it.

From a non specific standpoint, the issue involves whether or not various elected representatives, the fire department, and exectuive board feel if someone is the appropriate choice to be an officer. The individual has filled this position before with tremendous success and they have the support of the firefighters. However, other people who don't know the first thing about the fire service are preventing this extraordinary firefighter from once again assuming the role of teacher and leader even though the men whom he would teach and lead endorse him. They are doing this becuase the individual in question is a progressive, motivated, and effective leader who doesn't roll over for politics or to make people feel warm and fuzzy. He wants to accomplish a goal as fast as safely possible and make sure that all citizens and firefighters wake up safe and sound the next morning. If all that happens then he extends his hand with a thanks to his men. If it doesn't, or there is room for improvement, he doesn't sugar coat it. It will be taught at the next drill.

At the end of the day, fire departments exist to provide fire and rescue services to the communities that they are charged with protecting. So many ranking officials in the fire service and those who have oversight of the fire servce have lost track of the notion that the decisions that are made insofar as election of officers, purchase of equipment, and who to call for mutual aid need to have one single question asked before they are made "Is this election, purchase, decision the very best choice for the citizens of the fire district" If the answer is no in any way, then it must be readdressed.

There is no room for popularity in the fire service. The best man for the job, the best equipment purchsed at the most reasonable price, and the closest mutual aid unit that fulfills the assignment are all that counts. Friendship and warm fuzzies come after these decisions have been made.

[Guest]

Now-a-days you get a 17 year old who joins the dept, and immediately struts around the fire house as if they own it.  Why?  Because their daddy was a ff for 20+ years?  Because they might have just taken FFI and think they are an overnight miracle FF?  If I had done that I would have immediately been put in my place and embarrassed in front of the dept to make a point.  Im so tired of going to calls and offering a new member advice and getting told "Well, I TOOK this class and I know what Im doing!"  Todays fire service is in trouble, the loss of the tradition and respect will cause a lot of problems.

I'm sorry that that happens in your department, but it doesn't happen here in Katonah. All of us probies know our spot, we know our limitations, and we know to respect the other guys.

I'm sure it's a problem in other spots, but some of us are good kids.

[firemoose827 324]

I'm sorry that that happens in your department, but it doesn't happen here in Katonah. All of us probies know our spot, we know our limitations, and we know to respect the other guys.

I'm sure it's a problem in other spots, but some of us are good kids. 

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Oh, ABSOLUTELY!!! Some juniors or explorers are great, and know their spot in the ladder. Some probies are still respectfull also because they were fortunate enough to be raised by an old school firefighter who knew the importance of tradition and respect.

Its just that in my dept, we have a few new members whos daddies are chief, or who have been around the dept since diapers....you know the cliches. And they think their sh#@ dont stink, or they dont need classes because they know it already, "Daddy told me". Well, I've been around the fd since diapers also, and my father has 35 years in the dpt, but I lay no claim to any of that. I bust my but to get any and ALL training I can get, and still look for more and am open to any criticism from anyone. There have been numerous times an older, more experienced ff has been telling me something I already knew, but I LISTENED, and kept an open mind, and ended up learning a new way of doing something anyway. I guess thats what I was saying, some members; new or old, just dont respect their fellow firefighters.

It has turned into a mad dash to the top, stepping on friends along the way, just to get the glory. Somewhere along the way we forgot about the people we serve, and the property we protect; just like mfc said earlier, it should be about whats best for the community.....not our resumes.

Thanks for the input.

Jonesy

[DOC22 1]

As I've stated in previous posts, although we do not have Explorers or Juniors, we take our members at 16 years of age. We must have done something right somewhere because we couldn't ask for a better bunch of kids. They know the legal restrictions and respect them as do they also respect us "older members" as well. Yeah we get officers that don't like training, but we also just updated our Constitution and By-Laws to initiate training requirements for officers---the higher up you go, the more training is required. So we'll see how that goes.

[Guest]

Interesting and timely post. I'm okay with an election being a popularity contest but only if that officer is popular because he or she is competent, capable and well respected. As for Jonesy's comment about an officer who hates training - I feel for you brother but if my Dept. had an officer who hated training that would need to be addressed - I am not going in rusty and underexposed or worse never exposed.

As for the comment on Junior Members: I know there are some that "strut their stuff" or think who they are all the while not having any experience or minimal training but just think how many ARE hard working and will do whatever you ask. As for the overly confident, ignorant ones...well...take aim at 'em...let them know what they are doing wrong or not doing for that matter so if......if.....if... they WANT to improve they know how.

[Monty 35]

..... 

Has tradition gone out the window?  Where are the days when members wanted to train, and attended classes or went to the academy regularly? 

....

Im sorry, I rambled there for a minute.  Anyways, another popularity contest was won.  I am the dept Safety Officer now though.  How about everyone else?  Do you have the same problems with elections?  Does any dept out there still honor tradition, and if so, are you looking for a new member?

Stay safe and keep tradition and respect alive...its what keeps us alive.

In the words of my explorer advisor when I was 15...."I'd rather go into a burning building with someone who's constantly learning, rather than someone who thinks he knows it all."

Jonesy

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I guess you can look at it both ways. Tradition that is. We have the bad tradition of it 'we've always done it this way', 'we never used SCBA before', 'why do I need to train (I did it 20 years ago)' etc, etc.

As far as elections go, it seems that there is fewer of them happening - scrambling to find volunteers, accepting candidates under a special request as no-one meets the minimum requirements.

I think it is a sign of the times. Not sure how it will be resolved. If I had to offer something, I'd say consolidation. Although my crystal ball doesn't show it happening any time soon!

[res6cue 67]

All elections are a popularity contest, whether it's for junior engineer in a volunteer fire dept or President of the US. The trick is to have high enough standards and requirements (including perhaps even years of service to attain each position) in place so that even if it does come down to which guy kisses the most a$$, at least he'll be properly qualified. I think maybe some volunteer depts are reluctant to put these into place though, figuring it will discourage members from advancing because they'll have too much training to take. Well, in all honesty, I'd rather have one officer position go vacant than have it filled by a member with 2 years in the dept and only a couple of live burns at the smokehouse under his or her belt.

Our dept, while certainly not perfect, has a pretty strict and comprehensive set of guidelines for each position. It has stepping-stone requirements for Probationary Firefighter, Firefighter 1, Firefighter 2, Aerial Operator, Apparatus Operator, Safety Officer, Engineer, Lieutenant, Captain, 2nd Assistant Chief, 1st Assistant Chief and Chief of Department. It's a pretty substantial list, so even if you sat in class all day every day, it would still take you a few years to get through it all. Not to mention you still have to get accepted to Aerial Operator and Apparatus Operator training, which will take at least 2 or 3 years in the dept for Aerial and at least another year for Apparatus. You're talking at least 3 or 4 years in before you can even think about running for the lowest line officer position.

Edited April 27, 2006 by res6cue

[Guest]

Oh, ABSOLUTELY!!!   Some juniors or explorers are great, and know their spot in the ladder.  Some probies are still respectfull also because they were fortunate enough to be raised by an old school firefighter who knew the importance of tradition and respect.

Its just that in my dept, we have a few new members whos daddies are chief, or who have been around the dept since diapers....you know the cliches.  And they think their sh#@ dont stink, or they dont need classes because they know it already, "Daddy told me".  Well, I've been around the fd since diapers also, and my father has 35 years in the dpt, but I lay no claim to any of that.  I bust my but to get any and ALL training I can get, and still look for more and am open to any criticism from anyone.  There have been numerous times an older, more experienced ff has been telling me something I already knew, but I LISTENED, and kept an open mind, and ended up learning a new way of doing something anyway.  I guess thats what I was saying, some members; new or old, just dont respect their fellow firefighters. 

It has turned into a mad dash to the top, stepping on friends along the way, just to get the glory.  Somewhere along the way we forgot about the people we serve, and the property we protect; just like mfc said earlier, it should be about whats best for the community.....not our resumes.

Thanks for the input. 

Jonesy

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[Guest]

Jonesy,

Seems like there's a simple solution to the "know it all" - ask for their opinion and input every chance you get, becuase if they're right, and they really know their stuff, membership should see and know that. If they are wrong, membership should know that too. They'll come up with the wrong solution, they'll be exposed, their credibility damaged, make enough credibility blunders, and your career as an officer is over

Ask them to run the next drill according to a predetermined set of expectations. Make clear these objectives an expectations to the memebrs who attend the drill. Work up a final critique, with feedback from members who attended the drill, of how well the objectives and expectations were met. Either way, have the new officer get the results of the feedback

In this line of work, an officer either knows what to do or is honest that they don't know what to do. There's no faking it. The best an officer gets is a chance to learn the correct thing to do over time - a good officer will NOT squander any opportunity to learn more over time, practice, and get it right, which applies to themselves or others. A great officer will foster a climate that makes learning how to be a better firefighter (by training more and often) the most important obligation any FF has to the company, dept or service

Credibility, leadership's power and strength.

[Ladder44 73]

It's who you know not what you know!!!!

[Guest]

Any and all elections play a two faced game.

On one side, it is indeed a popularity contest. You want to vote for someone who's on the up and up with all.

On the other (in some places), it's because of desperation. THere's simply no one more qualified or willing to assume the position (no pun intended).

Even outside of Fire Department elections, it's a two sided crap shoot.

The noticable drop within the ranks doesn't help. Fewer and fewer people want to volunteer, citing it's simply not worth it anymore.

Roll with the punches, ride the wave.

We adapt, we overcome.

se la vie

As long as the incumbant does a good job and keeps the department rolling on and functioning, doesn't matter to me if he plotted a coup to get there.

[JBE 328]

I think the whole popularity contest theory goes along the line of who is so and so's buddy. This is the sort of stuff I hated, along with the clique-ish attitudes. If your father or grandfather wasn't a rock carrier, or you weren't a member of the "in-crowd" you were looked upon with disdain or outright ignored.

[Guest Rich DD]

I feel your pain. My department elected our asst. Chief on the same basis. He doesn't have IC-300, or many of the other officer courses I have worked hard to get. I am also a county Instructor.

I know how he is at incidents, since I was his Captain for 2 years when he was just a black hat. He panics when he thinks he isn't being heard.... and now he is an asst. Chief.

Go figure...... the good thing is I won't be the firefighter he kills. I'll be the one pulling the firefighters out that he almost killed!!!

LOL.... I posted and realized you can't say A$$. Chief.

Edited April 29, 2006 by Rich DD

[JohnnyOV 2]

Funny you should bring this up right now....

I, along with another founder (2 out of the 3) were just voted out of office in the Embry-Riddle EMS agency that we poured a years worth of sweat, blood and tears into.

Both of us had been doing our jobs, and much more, but yet the general membership failed to see what we had accomplished, or chose to ignore it, and vote for 2 candidates who imo, do not belong running something of this magnitude.

So obviously this weekend, I have not been a happy camper

[ex-commish 490]

In a past thread the topic of tradition was discussed, and its a sensitive issue with me.  Has tradition gone out the window?  Where are the days when members wanted to train, and attended classes or went to the academy regularly?  Where are the days when "Probies" knew and understood their part in the fire service and RESPECTED the experienced members?  Where are the days when you had to get EXPERIENCE in order to be an officer and you had to work your way up the ladder, and it was a respectible position to be in?

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How I long for those days. When I was a 17 year old Junior FF in the first department I joined I was told I am in the fire department for 3 reasons...

1. To learn

2. Keep my mouth shut.

3. Do what I am told.

If I couldn't do any of the above...goodbye. It was that simple. I never had to be told to roll/pack hose, clean tools, etc. The senior members, not so much the officers, would not allow it. You would not dare question anyone untill you proved yourself by simply doing the job you were expected to do. There was pride in what you did. You wanted to learn. Today things have changed and I am deeply concerned. Maybe it is our faults. Maybe we allowed things to get they way they are. Sorry for the rant....

[Guest]

How I long for those days. When I was a 17 year old Junior FF in the first department I joined I was told I am in the fire department for 3 reasons...

1. To learn

2. Keep my mouth shut.

3. Do what I am told.

If I couldn't do any of the above...goodbye. It was that simple. I never had to be told to roll/pack hose, clean tools, etc. The senior members, not so much the officers, would not allow it.  You would not dare question anyone untill you proved yourself by simply doing the job you were expected to do. There was pride in what you did. You wanted to learn. Today things have changed and I am deeply concerned. Maybe it is our faults. Maybe we allowed things to get they way they are. Sorry for the rant....

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I know this sounds rediculous comeing from a 19 year old, but I blame it on todays parenting. Every single kid I know, or have seen walking through stores or down the street with their family, has absolutly no repsect for anyone, let alone their parents anymore. Kids curseing out their mothers, yelling at their dad's...I would have been beat by my dad for doing that, and looking back, glad I would have been because it kept me in line.

Parents sending their kids to an unstructured day-care or with a nanny at home, does not provide the disicpline that children need to properly grow.

just my 2 cents

[JustSomeGuy 0]

Tradition has its place but not in this subject. The bottom line is that the most qualified needs to fill the position, not the flavor of the month. I am all about professionalism in volunteer agencies, and read the posts claiming equality, why not then test for the position, as well as the current requirements? Anyone can sit through the class and come out with a piece of paper, but who retains the knowledge? Knowledge is power. I can see NO reason against this. You do not like it, that is fine. Good firefighters are essential as well as good officers, and everyone has their place

[firecapt32 282]

In most departments here in the county the elections are a popular contest and qualifications are at least a second thought. Till something happens and OSHA and PESH come to town nothing will change.

Having said that some departments are moving along into the new century anda are doing it well. Having firefighter 1 and 2 as a start followed by survival.

Then haveing to take Intro to Fire Officer, Fire Officer 1, mabey even Firefighter Health and Safety, followed closely bt Incident Safety Officer.

And included in all this I 100, I 200, I 700 NIMS

If your department isnt moving in this direction youare doing the citizens of your community a disservice, as stated above in one of the responses

YOU ARE NOT THE ELKS CLUB WITH A FIRE TRUCK

YOU ARE SWORN TO PROTECT THE CITIZENS OF YOUR COMMUNITY.

[ONLOCATION 24]

Being around the Fire Service for a good portion of my life i can definitly say its a popularity contest in certain places. Being a Younger member and growing up around it gave me a old school outlook on things aswell as far as learning, and Senority. Another good saying is that its "Just his turn" or "Time" . Sometimes I guess people don't understand that s*** flows up and down hill. That Officers have a Responsability that they are obligated to uphold. Definitly agree with firecapt.32 " your not the Elks Club with a Fire Truck". Granted that with the Volunteer Service that it is "Volunteer" but it doesn't mean that u treat it any less due to this. Discipline is an aspect in some departments that just isn't there, aswell as common knowledge. U are also there to do a Job and not be everyone's Best Friend.

Edited May 1, 2006 by ONLOCATION

[AS702 0]

It also depends on the town and department size.. Smaller depts tend to abide by the rules and do everything the right way, not saying they all do..

[ONLOCATION 24]

It also depends on the town and department size.. Smaller depts tend to abide by the rules and do everything the right way, not saying they all do..

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Very True, good point

[res6cue 67]

In the end, I think it's perfectly fine and natural that it comes down to popularity, so long as all parties are QUALIFIED.

As I stated earlier, every election in the history of mankind comes down to who likes who the best and who has more support. Volunteer fire depts that do not have strict guidelines and requirements in place, which are fully enforced no matter who they're applied towards, are only asking for trouble. These requirements should not be easy to change either, this way you don't get a chief that changes them on a whim so his buddy can run for office. The foundation for them should be in the company bylaws, which should state that all active members shall comply with the training requirements. The requirements themselves should not be in the bylaws, as they will need updating from time to time as classes change, a clear example being NYS going from Essentials to Basic/Intermediate to Firefighter 1 in less than a decade. If you use the term "or equivalent" to allow some flexibility, it should be spelled out exactly what that means. The best way to deal with "or equivalent" situations is to have a neutral third party make the decision for you, rather than leaving it up to your own officers. An example of that is when we run into a situation like that, we ask the chief county fire instructor to make the call for us. The requirements should be enforced by the board of fire commissioners, not the company. They should review and approve any candidates for office so there is no question as to the qualifications, and the review is objective.

Edited May 1, 2006 by res6cue

[ex-commish 490]

In the end, I think it's perfectly fine and natural that it comes down to popularity, so long as all parties are QUALIFIED.

The requirements should be enforced by the board of fire commissioners, not the company. They should review and approve any candidates for office so there is no question as to the qualifications, and the review is objective.

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I agre with this for the simple reason the Attorney General rendered an opinion in the late 90's stating that company officers should in fact be district officers due to the fact they act as an arm of the chief and make decisions that would impact the district. It makes sence for any AHD to adopt training standards for officers.

[Guest]

I know this sounds rediculous comeing from a 19 year old, but I blame it on todays parenting. Every single kid I know, or have seen walking through stores or down the street with their family, has absolutly no repsect for anyone, let alone their parents anymore. Kids curseing out their mothers, yelling at their dad's...I would have been beat by my dad for doing that, and looking back, glad I would have been because it kept me in line.

Parents sending their kids to an unstructured day-care or with a nanny at home, does not provide the disicpline that children need to properly grow.

just my 2 cents

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I feel the same way, although it probably sounds even more rediculous coming from a 16 year old kid like me.

I got lucky, my parents are always around, I know my place, and I know respect. My dad's been in my department for 25 years, but that doesn't mean I have been. You've got to earn your place. It's not a free ride just because dad's been here awhile. We do what we're supposed to do, and if someone older gives us advice, we should take it, because more often than not, they know what they're saying.

[firecapt32 282]

lets not forget the fact that no matter-- who you are what your qualifications are-- if your elected to a position YOU and only YOU are the respopnsible person when something goes south in a hurry.

If some one gets hurt or some ones house burns down or a business section of town is destroyed by fire and your the Chief "BECAUSE IT'S YOUR TURN" MY ADVICE AND I GIVE IT FREELY TO YOU GUYS AS FIRE FRIENDS IS GET A GOOD ATTORNY FAST cause your rear is in the cooker and the stove is on. Try and tell a jury I'm the Chief because it's my turn!! see where that gets you.

If you have never been before a jury and asked questions by a opposing attorny count your lucky stars. Try and qualify your self. heres the first question after your name and swaring to god the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth!!

State your qualifications to be a fire officer.

ans-- I dont have any state Certifications but!!! ---- your dismissed next!!! no you dont understand we train in house its just as good!! next your dismissed---- wait we have been doing fighting fires this way since my father was chief in 19-- next your dismissed

You getting the picture

enough rambliing you can teli have had a hard day with the probies!!!

[Guest WolfEMT]

Coming from my own personal experience on my department, elections are clearly a popularity contest. I became the Sergeant of my Squad by winning the election by one vote; I ran against an individual who was the highest-ranking officer of a neighboring Squad, and the voting lines were clearly drawn on the basis of age - it just so happened that my contemporaries outnumbered his by 1 vote. The voting didn't have anything to do with who would do a better job as an officer; in fact, 4 months into the position, I still hear "You're too young to be an officer" despite the fact that I am qualified in all aspects of being an officer and, out of the 4 line officers on my Squad, I have the highest call-response volume. Unfortunately, at least where my Squad is concerned, when people get a notion or idea about who should or who should not be an officer, they rarely let it go and they frequently carry it over when it comes down to an important vote regarding the future of the Squad itself. An officer doesn't have to be the best liked individual on the Squad or Department, but they do have to be the best qualified for the job. Qualifications, education, and the ability to lead effectively are what make an officer - not his or her popularity amongst the department at large.

Edited May 2, 2006 by WolfEMT

[firemoose827 324]

Coming from my own personal experience on my department, elections are clearly a popularity contest. I became the Sergeant of my Squad by winning the election by one vote; I ran against an individual who was the highest-ranking officer of a neighboring Squad, and the voting lines were clearly drawn on the basis of age - it just so happened that my contemporaries outnumbered his by 1 vote. The voting didn't have anything to do with who would do a better job as an officer; in fact, 4 months into the position, I still hear "You're too young to be an officer" despite the fact that I am qualified in all aspects of being an officer and, out of the 4 line officers on my Squad, I have the highest call-response volume. Unfortunately, at least where my Squad is concerned, when people get a notion or idea about who should or who should not be an officer, they rarely let it go and they frequently carry it over when it comes down to an important vote regarding the future of the Squad itself. An officer doesn't have to be the best liked individual on the Squad or Department, but they do have to be the best qualified for the job. Qualifications, education, and the ability to lead effectively are what make an officer - not his or her popularity amongst the department at large.

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I agree with you; but youre forgetting one important requirement....Experience. You can join the dept at 17 and take 12 classes your first year, but it still doesnt mean jack sh#@ untill you fight some fires with your new knowledge and the senior guys guiding you. Same for EMS...take the EMT class, does that mean your ready for office? You need to treat patients and see the workings of the EMS system for a few years before you can be truly "qualified".

Our new Lt. for example, he "supposedly" has a stack of cerificates at home and in his words before the meeting the other night, "I forget more about firefighting than you even know" while he was joking around with another member. I stared at him and laughed. He got all bent out of shape and questioned why. I simply reminded him that in the 14 years I have been fighting fires in this county I have never seen him in TURNOUTS let alone an air pack, and Ive never seen him interior at all. He backed right off and said, "Well, I have to drive the trucks, no one else will." Does that make him an officer? Im scared...very scared.

[IzzyEng4 427]

He backed right off and said, "Well, I have to drive the trucks, no one else will."  Does that make him an officer?  Im scared...very scared.

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If an officer drives to a call and doesn't get releived by another driver on scene, he cannot and should not be a scene officer. He is in charge of his truck he had driven to the scene, not a fire officer.