"Disturbing" photos

[Guest]

Recently, in my internet travels, I have been noticing some public disdain with the use of "real life" incident photos in newspapers and more importantly on local fire department websites. Some people seem to understand why they are shown while others seem to hate us for it.

The most recent incident I read about involved pictures from a MVC that showed injured teenagers. There was a very large outcry to remove the pictures from the website, with the consensus that they were innapropriate and of "poor taste". Although I agree that these pictures can be disturbing to some I feel they also greatly benefit others. Firefighters can use these images to see how other departments handle calls, patient care, vehicle stabilization, etc. Teenagers can see the direct effects of drinking and driving, while parents can get a better understanding on just how deadly car accidents can be.

Speaking from personal experiance with situations just like this, our department has placed a disclaimer on our website that must be agreed to prior to veiwing photos. We use the following statement...

"Emergency incidents are often chaotic and traumatic. Personnel that routinely work in such environments maintain professionalism through dedicated efforts to train and share information. Fire and Rescue organizations that share information can improve services to the community, helping to save lives. If we do not learn from what has happened in the past, then we can not prevent such occurrences in the future."

Pictures are worth a thousand words and if they save a life of a child, parent, or a firefighter they are worth even more.

Let me know what you think. I think we are in the right.

[calhobs 110]

I am not sure if Fire Depts. have to follow the HIPPA laws but if you do sooner or later you will get sued big time.

[IzzyEng4 427]

I think the problem is that many people are very sensitive to seeing horrific photos of incidents mainly due to the severity of it especially in a mva / mvc. There is also more inportantly the issue the patient's rights and the request of thier family if they are incapacitated which has to be followed and respected. Where do we draw the line?

As for public veiwing in the newspapers, tv and on the web, the immages should not show the graphic detail of injuries, giving the upmost respect to our patients. You also have to remember eventhough it is not perfect, HIPPA can be used agains us in posting pictures of patients on our websites. We may not have a name but if someone sees there face there and has a good lawyer then we can be in trouble. I know this may or may not have happen yet, but the possibility is there. When posting images of incidents we have to be very careful of our content.

On the training issue, this is a whole different level. If we are to show pictures of a horrific incident as a training tool for rescuers in tacticts, overviews and for new members what to expect, yes we need those picture for "in house" training. Also too, we all do the mock DUI / DWI at prom time of for MADD / SADD events. Showing these pictures, with permission from parents, teachers, administration ect. before hand, to show the effect of drinking and driving and the aftermath of a serious accident, I am all for. Though graphic, it will bring it home to teenagers. Many of us responded to an accident involving young people involved in DUI accidents and we see how ther friends are when they learn of the crash. No need to describe their reaction. If we can get to them someway / somehow, we could hopefully pervent at least one or more future accidents.

Getting back to websites, Intubator's disclaimer should be on all websites to warn veiwers of what to expect and also protect the poster. As long as we are responsible for what is being posted there should be no problem.

[IzzyEng4 427]

I am not sure if Fire Depts. have to follow the HIPPA laws but if you do sooner or later you will get sued big time.

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It can, its all about patient confidentiality FD / EMS / PD / Hospital/ Ect.

[ltjay157 10]

Our dept's website shows accidents and other incidents but we will never show a picture of a victim or disclose any medical condition. If we put up a pic of a MVA we may only say "We were dispatched to an MVA w/reported injuries" and leave it at that. And yes, HIPPA does apply to fire dept's also.

[Guest WolfEMT]

I'm not a big fan of having pictures posted of everyday, run-of-the-mill EMS jobs and fires, but when something extraordinary occurs, sometimes I like to see how we responded by viewing the pictures. My department predominantly does this at MVAs and large-scale structure fires. The only gripe that I have is that our photographer publishes these photos on his website (and sometimes our department's website) with the vehicle registration tags in plain view. Although there are never any faces or bodies shown, the fact that he does not use the "smudge" tool in photoshop to encrypt the registration tag in an effort to protect the identity of the parties involved, does raise some ethical and legal issues vis-a-vis personal privacy.

Edited March 21, 2006 by WolfEMT

[JohnnyOV 2]

If you "must" show a picture of a victim...blur out their face. Takes 2 seconds and saves your a**

[Guest]

I can not agree more. All of the pictures that are on our website of incidents show the aftermath (i.e. the cars, houses, etc.). Rarely do you find pictures of live patients. HIPPA relates to ANY electronic transfer of patient information including pictures and the fire department falls under HIPPA in that respect.

The situations that we have found ourselves in revolved around pictures of wrecked cars in which teenagers lost their lives (DUI related or not), where friends and even family came to our website to "thank us" for what we did to help. Upon seeing pictures these friends and family became disgusted (rightfully so) and requested them to be pulled from the site. We always comply to that request but I do not believe that the public understands that we display the images for education and prevention, not to remind a greiving mother of her recent loss. Yes, I feel horrible for the familys who lose children that way and yes it is unfortunate. Many do not realize the stress that those incidents place on the rescuers and the work that goes into prevention (such as SADD and Every 15 Minutes). Is there a happy median?

[Guest]

As far as FD websites go for pictures, IMO they show anyone from everyday citizens to firefighters who may visit the website what the fire department does or had to do in recent weeks or months. I agree that there is no call for showing victims faces, or blood and guts kind of stuff, but pictures are nothing more then visual aid to what the department is doing.

[maisela 0]

I think that posting pictures of serious incidents on FD or EMS websites is not only beneficial to the public but to the first responder community from a training standpoint. Granted, photos should be edited and censored so they don't include faces of victims, license plate numbers and extremely graphic pictures of injuries. I took a vehicle rescue class last year in which the class was shown a slide show with pictures of MVA scenes. The instructor asked us what we thought was being done right and what was being done wrong on the scene based on what we have learned. The same can be applied to FD and EMS websites. I think I can speak for a great deal of first responders when I say that I enjoy browsing other agency websites looking at their apparatus and calls. And I think at some point, a couple of us have come across a picture or pictures of an emergency scene where we have said "Wow, I would have never thought to crib a car like that" or "So that's where the car battery is located on that model." What I'm trying to say is sometimes we undestimate the value of these pictures from an educational standpoint for fellow first responders.

[Guest]

I dont think its cool. If it was my house burning down, or one of my loved ones in an MVA, i dont think i would be happy to see their photos plastered on some website. To me, it goes beyond HIPPA/patient confidentiality and enters into what is decent/indecent and respectful/disrespectful. Now, if the website had a seperate link and offered some sort of "Safe Driving" or "Dont Drink and Drive" power point or video i would say sure, the pictures are useful and can be used as a deterent - put them in. However, having pictures plastered on the front page detailing the call seems a bit insensitive and unprofessional to me.

[cas2383 22]

But if there is no tie to the victim on the site how can anyone get in trouble? If there is nothing that can identify that specific person, ie a license plate, shot of the victim ect how can someone get in trouble? whether or not it is tasteful is a nother question for another day.

[JBE 328]

I think pictures such as this can be used as an educational tool. Learn from what you see, so when you're faced with a similar situation, you can take action to prevent mistakes made by others in the past. Other sites, as many of us probably know, show the gory stuuff just for the sake of blood and guts. Disclaimers are important. It also boils down to a simple freedom, choice. You don't like what you're seeing, click the mouse, or turn the page.

Fortunately, our countries' media is very careful about what they put in their print or on the TV. I have seen pictures and film of incidents in other parts of the world that would never make it past the Standards and Practices folks.

[Guest]

... However, having pictures plastered on the front page detailing the call seems a bit insensitive and unprofessional to me.

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Is education unprofessional? Is learning through mistakes unprofessional? If pictures of these incidents did not exist or get published for the rest of the fire service to use, we would be relying on word of mouth and hands on training to teach us all. You can learn a lot from pictures... some of the time they just happen to be sad/unfortunate.

[Guest]

Is education unprofessional? Is learning through mistakes unprofessional? If pictures of these incidents did not exist or get published for the rest of the fire service to use, we would be relying on word of mouth and hands on training to teach us all. You can learn a lot from pictures... some of the time they just happen to be sad/unfortunate.

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Sure, i dont deny that, but plastering them on a fire agency's homepage is unprofessional and insensitive, and there is no two ways about it. You want to train, you want to educate, thats wounderful - how about you do it in a constructive way ie: make a powerpoint about extrication and use the pictures to illustrate text, make a power point about drunk driving, make a power point about scene/mci management. In those instances pictures are essential, i never denied that. What i dont care for is the smattering you see on the front page of alot of websites - you cant tell me pictures on a front page with a description of the incident is educational.

[x635 4,066]

Some Fire Department web sites I wonder about. Are they there to serve the citizens, and provide them with information and news they can use regarding their local fire department, or are they produced for other firefighters and to "show off" to other departments??

Additionally, if a fire department shows an MVA on their site, and the media does in their newspaper, on their website, or 11PM newscast, how does one differ from the other?

Edited March 24, 2006 by x635

[Guest]

Interesting point you bring up x635, and a very valid one. However, I think there is a distinction between the media and fire department’s website. The media, as everyone knows, cares for no one but themselves and likewise one would expect to see pictures of that fatal MVA that tied traffic up for 3 hours on a major thoroughfare. While I, in a perfect world, would want the media to at least dampen their obsession with death and destruction, its not going to happen. A fire department or any emergency/civil service agency has a responsibility to serve and protect the citizens in their respective communities. We all know that. The difference that I see, as idealistic as it may sound, is that because of the things that such individuals see and deal with on a daily (or almost daily) basis they would have a heightened sense of sensitivity to the issue. I don’t think that individuals in civil service should ever want to see a fatal MVA or a 5 alarm fire that leaves countless homeless. Our main objective is, or at least should be, education and prevention. Firefighters do it – going to schools to discuss candle safety and other fire prevention techniques as well as what to do in the case of a fire, EMS and Police demonstrate it to High School seniors before prom with vehicle extrications, statistics and video taped documentaries. Maybe I speak for myself, but when I punch that time card in at 7am Thursday mornings, I pray to god I don’t have to any calls – I don’t want to be busy because to be busy means that there are a lot of people in a world of hurt. None of us should want a “good accident†or a “hot job.†This world has EMS, Fire and Police because naturally, despite all the education in the world, sh*t happens and things go sour – that’s where we come in, to pick up the pieces. So, instead of turning the worst day of someone’s life into a department buff session it seems to me that creating, with permission of course, some sort of educational tool would be most beneficial to members, civil servants and the general population.

Edited March 24, 2006 by 66Alpha1

[ny10570 745]

I have to disagree with 66alpha1 here. While none of us here want to see bad things happen to people, we(as a community) actively earch out and and on some level wish for bad sh!t to happen. Why is it that the busiest FD's and EMS posts have the longest lines to get in? When was the last time you heard someone say they were waiting to a position at Transcare doing transports so they can get the hell out of OLM 911? Has anyone on this site posted that their FD has had too much work in the last year. We celebrate other people's misfortune. When people were posting were posting their favorite pics of the year how many were of fires that were caugth before they caused any significant damage? I could go on and on with more examples. We are not evil people. Most of us bust our asses to help strangers in tehir time of need. But lets be honest; our jobs require us to prepare and wait for the worst. By the nature of it we are waiting for the worst to happen.

[ONLOCATION 24]

Issue is that I see is that the Public also doesn't understand why the photo's are taken. As a Scene photographer I am faced with even Law Enforcement Officers from Towns that in which I take photo's for the FD's give u a hard time and people look at u like your sick. One of the Reason's is Insurance adjustors and Fire Insurance people that run to the scene of an Incident and try to make money off of it. I saw this at one of my departments recent fires. If u are wearing Apparel that displays u are with an Emergency agency like a Turn-out Coat or Bunker pants I just wish people would use common sense and understand its for a purpose.

[JBE 328]

To add to my previous statement about content, there was a photo I saw in the NY Post that made me think twice about some photos that were taken.

Recently, I was asked about info regarding a fatal accident on the 59th Street Bridge. It was on the Queens approach, which has a really nasty turn that has been the death of a number of people over the years. I didn't have any info, passed along my condolences and that was it. Then I saw the picture of this poor fella laying in the street covered in a bloody sheet. I think this adds a little insult to injury. The diagram of the accident should, IMO have been enough to show this mans' tragic last ride. I know if it bleeds it leads, but I think the diagram would have been enough.

Things have definitely changed from the days when it wasn't uncommon to see pictures of mobsters shot up in the papers.

Fire scene photography is necessary for a number of reasons. Evidence gathering comes to mind. Education has already been covered. It also serves as a history lesson. To see how things have changed over the years. That's about all I can come up with other than the photographer should use discretion as to what photos should be disseminated and what is best to just keep for yourself.

[fd2119 3]

Sure, i dont deny that, but plastering them on a fire agency's homepage is unprofessional and insensitive, and there is no two ways about it. You want to train, you want to educate, thats wounderful - how about you do it in a constructive way ie: make a powerpoint about extrication and use the pictures to illustrate text, make a power point about drunk driving, make a power point about scene/mci management. In those instances pictures are essential, i never denied that. What i dont care for is the smattering you see on the front page of alot of websites - you cant tell me pictures on a front page with a description of the incident is educational.

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It seems to me that it depends on how the images (and the associated article) are crafted and presented. If you simply put something like "The Jones' house burnt down, and we caught some good fire", then yes, I'd agree it can border on disrespectful. If your article is something more professional, and maybe includes some tips on how to avoid a situation like this (so that others can learn from the Jones' house fire), then maybe it's not disrespectful.

Just my view. For the record, I'm my department's PIO, photographer and one of the two webmasters.

[fd2119 3]

Sure, i dont deny that, but plastering them on a fire agency's homepage is unprofessional and insensitive, and there is no two ways about it. You want to train, you want to educate, thats wounderful - how about you do it in a constructive way ie: make a powerpoint about extrication and use the pictures to illustrate text, make a power point about drunk driving, make a power point about scene/mci management. In those instances pictures are essential, i never denied that. What i dont care for is the smattering you see on the front page of alot of websites - you cant tell me pictures on a front page with a description of the incident is educational.

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Just my opinion, but the difference lies not only in their presentation, but in their reputation. People somewhat expect more grusome or one sided presentation of facts or stories, whereas the fire service is held to a higher standard, to include morally. I know I went through a background check prior to even getting voted in as a volunteer, but I'm not sure if the news media subjects it's employees to background investigations.

[fd2119 3]

We celebrate other people's misfortune. 

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I hope this isn't too out of context, but no, I don't think we celebrate people's misfortunes - or at least I don't think we do. We celebrate our victory over people's adverse conditions and misfortune. What is better, to arrive at a house with heavy fire blowing out of every window and door and save the house, or to find the same situation and wind up saving a concrete foundation? What is better, to cheat (postpone) death that .001% of the time and bring a trauma code back, or to hand a dead body over to the police?

Personally, I like to think that I celebrate, document and market (cheerlead, if you will) for public safety. I'm not at a crash to capture the vehicles involved, nor the people involved. I'm there for the public safety personnel (fire, police and EMS/rescue), and I like to think that my photographs reflect that.