FDNY Brush fire tactics

[IzzyEng4 427]

I know that FDNY runs several BFU's in S. I. but something caught my eye on the incident pictures posted here. In one of the pics, it looks like a tower ladder had its rear jacks down. I was courious depending on the size of the fire if they actualy use a tower ladder during suppression operations at a large brush fire. I've never seen this done before but does make sense if a large volume of water was needed.

[Truck4 48]

They use Tower Ladders for suppression and observation.

[IzzyEng4 427]

They use Tower Ladders for suppression and observation.

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OK Thanks!

[27east 19]

Somewhat unrelated, but FYI: FDNY will also use towers for observation at structural collapses.

Edited March 16, 2006 by 23piraf

[Guest]

They use Tower Ladders for suppression and observation.

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This is very interesting to me. t is amazing that they FDNY would use a Tower Ladder for either suppression or observation. I dont know much about brush incidents in New York, but putting an aerial up for either of these cases would be suicide on the west coast. Brush fire move very fast and its hard to run from the fire. Observation would generally be made with the use of helicopters and downlinks to the command post.

Another observation I have made and touched upon here before is the fact that firefighters wear turnout / Bunker gear on these types of incidents. HOW DO THEY DO IT? Seems a little dangerous. Can someone here please educate me on tactics used back east?

[Truck4 48]

I think we need to clarify to the Left-coasters, what is referred to as a brush fire in New York is more like a grass fire in most CA respects. These are not what you're used to seeing, which are more along the lines of "forest fires," with trees and heavy brush involved. Recent large scale brush fires in NYC, including Soundview Park, Gateway Park, Marine Park; all involved mostly large fields of tall grass.

Obviously, a tower ladder is not going to be set up downwind for any fires of this type. As an example, TL-77 was set up at today's job in Staten Island at the end of Quintard St. as the fire burned in two directions away from that location. This POV gave the Division an idea of what he had, but more effectively to later check for flare ups after the fire was knocked down.

I think you'd probably get a good snicker at what is called a brush fire here.

[Guest]

I SEE!!!!

So what you are telling me is that brush out there is handled by 2 engines, a camp crew and a water tender....hahaha!

Thanks for clearing that up for me... We'll see about getting you a "grass fire" when you come out this way.

[tbendick 27]

I will tell you that we have a long way to go when it comes to Brush fires. Many times guys would give up the brunker pants at these jobs, which now is a big no no. Now with the addition of the harness and ropes it's even more stuff these guys have to drag around on these fires. Would be nice if there was other gear availble and newer tactics. I have seen fires where they droped 4 Engines and the satellite hose bed and never made it to the fire.

So Camp crew? Is that like the Boy Scouts?

Water Tender? Hum sounds like the RAC unit, does if also have the cookies?

[Guest]

The gear that most agencies out here use are lightweight Nomex wildland gear. To get a good idea, you can go to www.transconmfg.com to see what I am talking about. Anyone can get full brush gear for about $125.00. That includes a brush jacket and pants. If guys wore bunker gear out here, you would have a lot of heat related injuries.

During big brush fires, engine companies just wait it out and let the fire burn in the open land. Their main purpose is urban interface structure protection. Its natural to have brush fires. Its nature way of cleaning itself up and promoting new growth. The problem occurs when these fires come close to homes. Camp crews are basically what the USFS calls "Hot Shot" crews. LACoFD has these stations known as camps set up all over the hills. These guys are the workhourses of the fire. Their job is to cut a line around the fire with the objective to contain the fire. LACoFD has three paid crews and several inmate crews. They are also assisted by dozer teams. The helicopters are the ones that go after the flames. They provide water drops. Tankers(planes) mostly drop Phos Chek. A chemical the slows the rate of burn. You will often hear the term "painting the hillside" due to the fact that this chemical is redish-pink and when dropped oin an area, the hill looks pink. Water Tenders are what you guys call tankers. Large eliptical water tankers that provide water when there isn't a water source.

The information is just a brief description of how LACoFD does it. Other agencies work similarly but also have their own way of doing things. LACoFD are experts at urban interface. LAFD, well...... they are one of the best at structure fire...lol

[Steve 78]

The brush thats burns in Staten Island is actually called "Cat tails".

[JBE 328]

I'm going to go along with our pal from LA. What we term a brush fire is nothing compared to what those guys get out there. Most, if not all of LA Countys' Water Tenders are 3000 gallon tanks. They also run patrols, which are just like the brush units you see out here. Nothing like the FDNY steroid infused brush trucks. They also run helicopters, which is something I think FDNY needs, not only for brush fires. 2 or 3 acres is kid stuff for them. We could learn a lot from them when it comes to that sort of thing. Tower ladders get used extensively for observation at fires like this, and every so often, you may actually see them operating.

[IzzyEng4 427]

I tell you, I would not want to be in a "brush fire" out west. I use the quotes because what I am used to. Up here we have some hilly terrain but for the most part we can get to them by foot, brush trucks or mini pumpers. But when I see those crown fires out west it cringe. Some of the towns run old military jeeps, power wagons if weapons carriers. Some towns have the duces (stump jumpers for you NYers) but those are mainly up in Northern and Eastern CT. My town we do not have a brush truck but all the towns around us do plus we don;t have much open space left here.

Have to say you guys ou there got brass,

Izzy

Homer J. Simpson's definition of a water tender - The truck that follows the malt, barley and hops tenders

Edited March 16, 2006 by IzzyEng4

[Guest]

credit: New York Times 3-15-06

[Guest alsfirefighter]

LA Fire....I always kid my left coast friends that you guys look like a trojan commerical wearing flannel pajamas to jobs and trojan man helmets.

The issue of structural firefighter equipment at brush fires has always been a great debate. Most of us around here that is all we have and you have to take into consideration what your members are wearing. Not a wise idea to be at a brush fire that is well involved and/or intense when wearing nothing but synthetic fabric clothing like polyester. I can normally tolerate my bunkers with leather boots for a short period of time and not having to walk a mile through the woods. Everything must be weighed in your risk vs. benefit analysis. Sometimes its better left to burn and it won't burn again for years. I was at a brush fire several years ago when one of my fellow members, was walking down hill and lost his balance and stumbled. He slid down a short ways right into a section of hot embers and burned his forearms which required a trip to the burn unit in Richmond. Just always be alert and remember, its brush. Slow down and take the time to do it right the first time.

[Guest aussiegeorge]

we get pretty good brush fires out here on the east coast of australia,just like LA.our ladders don't even leave the station on brush fire calls,we also have a seperate brush fire turnout gear,a lighter weight helmet no bunkers pants and a light weight turnout jacket,you just got to remember to put your bag with that gear on the rig each time you go out on it.

[IzzyEng4 427]

There is brush firefighting gear similar to LA's. Look at what the smoke jumpers wear. Nothing worse that wearing bunkers at a brush fire, sparined my ankle too many times and too many of our guys / gals gone down from heat exhaustion, the few ones we got. There has to be a better way I think.

[Guest]

credit: Mary DiBiase Blaich for NYT

March 25, 2006

New York City Meets Stranger From the West: The Brush Fire

By MICHELLE O'DONNELL

The New York Times

With a coyote roaming Central Park, celebrity news filling Manhattan blogs, and a Trader Joe's market opening near Union Square, New York City has a lot in common with Southern California these days. But now it shares something else: brush fires.

That stock calamity of Western life — and star of aerial cable news footage from June to November in California — has broken out across the city this year in numbers and intensity rarely seen.

From Jan. 1 through March 15, a total of 93 blazes scorched grassland around the city, making it one of New York's busiest brush-fire seasons on record. Last year, during the same period, there were 16.

This week, a two-alarm fire burned in Great Kills Park on Staten Island, where last week, a five-alarm fire raged for four hours, threatening nearby homes. Early Sunday, a two-alarm fire burned in Spring Creek Park in Queens, opposite a residential block in Howard Beach.

A few days later, the burned park in Queens looked like a charred no man's land, as any burned brush would, except that it was peppered with the detritus of city life — a melted steel drum and shards of beer bottles that had burst in the conflagration.

The cause of that fire and many of the others is not known, but a chief suspicion is that they were man-made.

Officials suspect either a serial arsonist or accidental fire starters, in the form of a child hiding in the reeds to smoke a first cigarette, or a teenager riding a spark-spitting moped. Homeless people cooking food could also be responsible.

Beyond possible arson, Chief Salvatore Cassano, the Fire Department's chief of operations, blamed the very dry winter with a lot of windy days. He said winter and early-spring brush fires in New York City were an annual phenomenon, though seldom in this quantity.

"This is no surprise to the New York City Fire Department," he said, noting that there were open spaces with overgrown grasses and marshy wetlands filled with dead reeds in each borough, except Manhattan.

"In light of the dry winter with the windy conditions," he added, "whatever moisture was on the brush has evaporated."

Of course, the fires that have burned this year in the marshes and parkland in Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island and even the Bronx are much smaller than rampaging infernos like the Cedar Fire in San Diego County in 2003, in which 273,000 acres burned.

In the largest New York brush fire this year, the five-alarm fire on March 11 in Great Kills Park on Staten Island, 75 acres burned. The second largest brush fire, also on Staten Island, a four-alarm blaze in Ocean Breeze Park on March 15, burned 25 acres. All of this year's brush fires were brought under control within several hours and without loss of life.

Though smaller, they nevertheless pose the same threat to homes and lives as their Western counterparts — especially in a wind-whipped city built on a tight grid, with many neighborhoods lying close to marshes.

Commanders have adapted firefighting techniques to battle the blazes.

The burning area is divided into four quadrants, and firefighters try to flank it to bring it under control.

Because large water tanks and hoses often cannot reach into the burning area, firefighters from brush-fire units strap on small metal tanks, which weigh more than 40 pounds and hold five gallons of water, and head into the brush to spray the fire directly.

"It's very tough duty," Chief Cassano said of the work, which includes walking through thick reeds or over embers and often sinking knee-deep into mud.

Mr. Nadler, the Howard Beach resident whose home faces the charred ground of Spring Creek Park, said there used to be more fires, before the city covered over the contaminated marsh soil about two decades ago.

This week, despite the burn, stumps of reeds could be seen poking through the soil, foreshadowing more growth, and more fires to come.

News of the increase in brush fires in New York caused some amusement on the fire-branded left coast.

"Brush fires — in New York City?" asked Michael Jarvis, a spokesman for the California Department of Forestry and Fire Services, which puts out several hundred thousand acres of brush fires each year.

Some perspective: In California, all brush fires get names. In New York, they rarely do.

And what seems Dante-esque here is minor there. A recent fire near Sacramento burned several thousand acres and consumed three houses but never registered as a major fire, Mr. Jarvis said.

"I've heard of fires out in Ohio where 600 acres of marshland burns," he said, "but not in New York."

[Guest aussiegeorge]

5 alarms to put out only 75 acres,what is it over there in nyc multi storey grasslands.Jokes aside you could show us a thing or 2 about high rise fires just like we could show you a thig or 2 about wildland fires.(and those canisters you strap on your back we got rid of those years ago so)

[Guest]

I think their was a post on EMTBravo a while ago about some parts of FDNY having Mini-Attacks around for brush/rubbish fires.

Edited April 2, 2006 by NRFDTL11Buff

[Guest]

I was right, check this out. Its a topic on Bravo about Brush trucks for FDNY........See links below

Topic about FDNY brush Trucks--Click ( If that link does not work go to "NYC FIRE-EMS-PD APPARATUS" then click "FDNY BRUSH VEHICLES"

Click---When page comes up, Scroll down to view a old FDNY brush Truck (EMTBravo member 201/65 found that link)

Edited April 4, 2006 by NRFDTL11Buff