Bearded firefighters in the fire service?

[firemoose827 324]

Mr. Plectron,

What exactly is a exterior firefighter? Are they required to stay 100 yards from the incident? Do they respond to vehicle fires,  and brush fires? How about "odor  of ______" calls? Haz Mat calls are exterior calls too.

If the "bearded one" responds to these calls, he has the potential of operating in an enviroment that requires a mask. Furthermore, if the only reason for being an exterior firefighter is because he dosen't want to shave, it only shows what kind of firefighter he is.

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Mr. Johnvv,

I believe what he was saying was any Class "B" firefighters. Or those who can not wear a mask due to health or fit test reasons.

[firecapt32 282]

this is getting interesting now!!!! glad als got his post in---always love the way he has with words-- Hudson your just foloicly challanged if that a word!!

last post for me on the subject

No facial hair more then one days growth for any State Training. There isnt a State Fire Instructor that will violate that policy.

If "What ever" F.D. wants to allow beards it falls under AHJ authority having jourisdiction.

Just dont come crying when something hits the fan.

[msm232 69]

Capt, AHJ??? As stated before, It's the Law......there is no gray area on this subject. Anybody who has done fit testing knows the validity of these rules. Here is the kick in the butt when it comes to the volunteer fire service! Why should I or my family be punished (meaning hurt or killed) because the person behind me or in front of me didn't feel like shaving? Does that person have the right to put me or other personnel in my department in jeopardy because of their shaving habits??? How many times have you seen officers and firefighters on the fire ground with full beards or goatees? Yea, I know the masks are positive pressure and any leaks, leak out of the mask....But and there is always a but....the better the mask fits, the less of a chance for a leak, the more air you have to breath!!!!!!!

As a Chief, you will be held RESPONSIBLE.......Let me say that again......AS A FIRE CHIEF, YOU WILL BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR ACTIONS and THE ACTIONS OF YOUR PERSONNEL. If you as Chief allow personnel to respond in violation of the OSHA law, you a NEGLAGENT. You won't have a leg to stand on in court!!!

If your a Chief and have a beard, don't show up on my fire ground.....I'm not a barber!

Stay safe

Edited March 14, 2006 by msm232

[JohnnyOV 2]

I'm right here.  First I'm with V squared.  Second, DFFD, your comment is exactly what is wrong with the fire service and many departments.  What's next, if you want to be under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol, that's ok because that is what you want to do because you're a volunteer?  What is this a clubhouse?  A hobby?  When you join a department you are making a commitment to a profession, one of the most dangerous in the world at that.  You're not joining the Elks club.  In fact if you don't want to follow the rules go join them, or the Lion's club, the Moose Lodge or the Freemasons.  If your a volunteer you have a life outside of the fire department?  LOL.  We all have lives outside the fire department.  The state has a no facial hair policy for all training involving SCBA use.  So guess if you don't want to shave, no training.  Personal choice sure.  That is why they have social status at departments also.  REMEMBER, YOU CHOSE THE FIRE SERVICE, THE FIRE SERVICE DIDN'T CHOOSE YOU.  THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS IN LIFE!

What it comes down to is this:

1.  Believe it or not...its not about you.  Whether your paid, volunteer or whatever else you want to call yourself. You are there to serve the community, not yourself, your ego or whatever else some do it for. 

2.  If you don't want to follow the rules because you feel your "special" because you volunteer.  Go somewhere else.  We meaning the fire service don't need you.  The community doesn't need you and your department doesn't need you.  People that feel that "I'm just a volunteer," or "I volunteer so I'm owed something" are like a cancer and that mentality spreads.  As already said the fire service owes you nothing, you owe the fire service and the people.

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ALS I couldnt have said it any better myself. Bringing it back to the simplier reason on why beards should not be allowed is the law, plain and simple. We had a member of our VAC who didnt want to shave his beard for FIT testing, so he went on his way.

The laws are set up for a reason, and in particular, this one is for all of our safety. The men and women at OSHA/NFPA are not dumb, and they are looking out for you, which is why you should follow what they suggest.

[firecapt32 282]

msm you are correct it is the law

[Cos Cob 215 7]

I have read here that many people don't like the "exterior status". As a fire police patrol company we have guys (clean shaven who enter hazardous atmospheres w/ SCBA) and we also have guys that direct traffic and enforce the fire lines. If a situation changes (fire condition worsens, wind shifts, etc.) the fire lines need to be adjusted accordingly. These members would move back with the fire lines. I know our company can not afford to lose these "exterior" guys for two reasons: we need them to do their duties and we need them to free up the guys that do have SCBA related duties. For the several companies here that can afford to lose these guys, count your blessings.

Christian Andersen

Acting Captain

Cos Cob Fire Police Patrol, Inc.

[msm232 69]

Cos Cob 215, please don't confuse Interior firefighters with Exterior or Scene Support Personnel. I understand your fire companies position and role on the fire ground. This thread addresses INTERIOR or Class A Firefighters which choose to have facial hair in violation of OSHA rules.

Thanks and Stay Safe.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Plain and simple....

OSHA has to revisit this every five years or so and prove that beards pose a threat to SCBA mask saftey. Once they make there findings they post them and stick to it.

Trust me when I say that I proved a fit test wrong with a beard and had no leaks. It was cut short and tight and it was for a test only. I shaved it off and had my regular fit test done without any problems as well.

As the look of professialism , that is an entierly different topic for me. I think if they are kept neat and you are not doing any interior ops, and you are not SCBA certifeid, OK but that is me and depends what policies the department has. If its no beards, then its no beards. period.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I think everyone is on the same page that it does fall under the law...OSHA CFR's.

However, it is the AHJ's responsbililty to enforce it. All it takes is a few times of enforcement and it will no longer be a problem. If they don't like it and quit...guess what...you don't need them anyway.

This is probably one of the best threads I have seen on this site where all had great input and kept it very professional and knowledgable. Hats off to all my brothers (and maybe sisters) who took part in this thread.

[antiquefirelt 994]

In perfect timing Firehouse this month has a legal article about the DC court ruling and/or injunction on the "grooming" standard.

[Monty 35]

I think everyone is on the same page that it does fall under the law...OSHA CFR's. 

However, it is the AHJ's responsbililty to enforce it.  All it takes is a few times of enforcement and it will no longer be a problem.  If they don't like it and quit...guess what...you don't need them anyway.

This is probably one of the best threads I have seen on this site where all had great input and kept it very professional and knowledgable.  Hats off to all my brothers (and maybe sisters) who took part in this thread.

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What happens if the AHJ isn't bothered with the law? It seems that if the department isn't bothered, no-one else around here is (county / state etc).

We've always done it this way, I'm still here, what's the problem! I wonder if the recruitment and retension issues are weighing on people's mind, lack of knowledge or something else?

[Guest fire38]

DFFD- There are certain rules to being a Volunteer firefighter, if you dont want to play by them (for what ever reason) then don't volunteer. Buy a fishing pole you can grow your beard down to your ankles with a hobby like that.

[ex-commish 490]

What happens if the AHJ isn't bothered with the law? It seems that if the department isn't bothered, no-one else around here is (county / state etc).

We've always done it this way, I'm still here, what's the problem! I wonder if the recruitment and retension issues are weighing on people's mind, lack of knowledge or something else?

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A person can rob a bank for years and get away with it. The law isn't an issue untill that person gets caught. The same applies to us. We can operate with total disregard for OSHA and other laws and nothing happen untill someone gets hurt or God forbid killed now the law will mean something. OSHA is not going to go to every fire scene and see if the department operates under the guidelines of the law. It is agains't the law to rob a bank as it is to not operate in a safe manner. You decide and deal with the consequences.

Past disregard for NFPA and OSHA has landed a fire chief in jail. It is simply a safety issue.

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

[johnvv 20]

I am amazed that such a simple topic has generated such a response! Why are some people always trying to bend the rules to not have them apply? Here are the top three answers on the board:

1) I have a "tight" cropped beard

2) I passed the fit test, so I can look like ZZ top if I wish to.

3) Hey, I volunteer my time, I can do what I want.

My answer has not been swayed by the responses- Its an OSHA law! If you choose to disregard it, then pick a new hobby to fill your time. If you are the Chief of a Department and knowingly allow your members to violate the law- then you will be held liable if a call dosen't go well. I remain clean shaven, and accept it to remain an interior classified firefighter. What you do in your dept. is your business, but if you want to sit in my classroom, you better use a shaver!

[Guest]

I have an interesting observation. How about wildland firefighters. Don't they have the same standards? I cant tell you how often I run into guys from the USFS that have long ZZ Top beards. I always questioned the OSHA regulation, but they must not fall under that criteria. What surprised me is that they have engine companies in the mountains that run structure calls and you see them all over the place...

[hudson144 150]

john vv- it pertains to both career and volunteer! good point! if a career firefighter is not going by the standard then shame on him,his supervisor and whoever else is supposed to be running the show.

[Guest]

In my opinion if you want a beard, go for it. You're a volunteer firefighter, this means you have a life besides the fire department. I can see why a bared can cause an issue, but if this person is solely VOLUNTEER, I think he can do whatever he wants to himself.

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Dude,

haven't you learned by now, even after what you learned while a Junior firefighter?

you wanna play with fire, NO BEARD. Paid/Vollie or otherwise.