Bearded firefighters in the fire service?

[johnvv 20]

I was wondering how a firefighter can have a beard when OSHA clearly states that no interference can be allowed between a firefighters face and his/her mask? Dosen't every fire department have a mask policy, and require a fit test for their members?

This is a real "hot button" of mine. Not only is this unsafe, and against the OSHA standard, but it does not look professional in my opinion. Many departments, rightfully so, have implimented policies that prevent Firefighters from responding to alarms if they are unshaven. What is your department's policy?

[Plectron 1]

There is a member of my department that is classifed as an exterior FF solely because he dose'nt want to shave his beard to pass the fit test.

[jd783 64]

I know the paid depts in Westchester have a no beard clean shave policy, I have seen other vol. depts with members that look like members of ZZ Top

[johnvv 20]

Mr. Plectron,

What exactly is a exterior firefighter? Are they required to stay 100 yards from the incident? Do they respond to vehicle fires, and brush fires? How about "odor of ______" calls? Haz Mat calls are exterior calls too.

If the "bearded one" responds to these calls, he has the potential of operating in an enviroment that requires a mask. Furthermore, if the only reason for being an exterior firefighter is because he dosen't want to shave, it only shows what kind of firefighter he is.

[Guest DFFD227]

In my opinion if you want a beard, go for it. You're a volunteer firefighter, this means you have a life besides the fire department. I can see why a bared can cause an issue, but if this person is solely VOLUNTEER, I think he can do whatever he wants to himself.

[210 91]

In my opinion if you want a beard, go for it. You're a volunteer firefighter, this means you have a life besides the fire department. I can see why a bared can cause an issue, but if this person is solely VOLUNTEER, I think he can do whatever he wants to himself.

←

I agree.

[Plectron 1]

Mr. Plectron,

What exactly is a exterior firefighter? Are they required to stay 100 yards from the incident? Do they respond to vehicle fires,  and brush fires? How about "odor  of ______" calls? Haz Mat calls are exterior calls too.

If the "bearded one" responds to these calls, he has the potential of operating in an enviroment that requires a mask. Furthermore, if the only reason for being an exterior firefighter is because he dosen't want to shave, it only shows what kind of firefighter he is.

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Mr. Johnvv

In My department there are 3 classifications for firefighters

Interior = Self-explanitory

Exterior = Can participate in any aspect of firefighitng that dose not involve donning an airpack

Administrative = Is not allowed to do anything physical

This of course is a volunteer department, I would think that in a paid department there would be no other classification other than interior, or I would assume that you would be out of a job.

My job, though not firefighting but emergency services related, requires its employees to be clean shaved and presentable

Edited March 11, 2006 by Plectron

[johnvv 20]

DFFD,

Regardless of my opinion, the bottom line is OSHA has regulations on this issue. This is not opinion, this is Law. OSHA dosen't classify firefighters as volunteer or career, and neither do I. I only have two classifications- Professional and Not.

[Guest loudog]

I have a veryshort beard, I'm an interior ff, and I always pass the fit test. The mask makes contact under my chin, and I've never experienced any problems.

DFFD,

Regardless of my opinion, the bottom line is OSHA has regulations on this issue. This is not opinion, this is Law. OSHA dosen't classify firefighters as volunteer or career, and neither do I. I only have two classifications- Professional and Not.

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[Geppetto 31]

On any call where the individual firefighter has the potential of being overcome by

the products of fire, hazardous vapors or an oxygen deficient atmosphere, then I would tend to believe that the individual firefighter would and should take advantage of the protection of an SCBA. If the wearing of a beard would prohibit that firefighter from protection, then is it wise for him/her to be on the scene?

There are many items named for individual(s) in the fire service. When a firefighter dies due to the inhaled products of an emergency scene, the legacy that will be left will be probably a spouse, orphan(s), a plaque on the wall, and a mask policy named for that firefighter. How about being a little proactive and saving us one more cancer case or LOD death? This is not an over-reaction, this is fact. Any firefighters left standing from any of the phone company fires?

Maybe a simple policy should just state that another bearded wonder has to explain it to the widow, that looking cool is better than being alive, or just simply refuse to insure them, that would probably correct the problem.

[SteveOFD 176]

In my opinion if you want a beard, go for it. You're a volunteer firefighter, this means you have a life besides the fire department. I can see why a bared can cause an issue, but if this person is solely VOLUNTEER, I think he can do whatever he wants to himself.

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"...if this person is solely VOLUNTEER, I think he can do whatever he wants to himself."

Does this mean that the "VOLUNTEER" doesn't have to meet training standards because he is only a "VOLUNTEER". IMO we are all Professionals and need to meet minimum established standards.

For those of you have not seen the reason for wearing SCBA watch Mark Noble video

[JN352 0]

For me its simple... If you want to grow a beard go ahead but dont expect to step foot on a rig.. if you ride out on an EMS assist and next thing you know there is a hazmat situation, WHAT NOW?! Its a safety issue and not just for that individual but for the other members of the crew who may now be put in harms way rescuing a member b/c that member was overcome b/c they did not have a good seal b/c of a stupid beard... SAFETY!!!!!! FIRST!!!!!.... And dont expect to get credit for that call sitting on the couch either. Put out or get out! And thats not even getting into the legal side of it.

On a side note there has been a number of articles in FH magazine lately on this subject. most recent in this months, check it out.

[ex-commish 490]

In my opinion if you want a beard, go for it. You're a volunteer firefighter, this means you have a life besides the fire department. I can see why a bared can cause an issue, but if this person is solely VOLUNTEER, I think he can do whatever he wants to himself.

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The respratory standard requires mask fit testing annually. It also requires that there be no facial hair that interferes with the mask seal during testing.

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

[ohbdow1 6]

Ask the person if they are a Fire Fighter. If they are a Fire Fighter than there is no facial hair. No small beards, no thin beards, no goatee's, nothing below the corner of the lip. "I pass the Fit Test" is nonsense. The real test is when you are wearing the pak in an IDLH atmosphere. If you have facial hair and passed the fit test in a classroom it is not the same as when you are working, sweating and with me. I can gaurantee that if you show up to a call and expect to go in a fire with a beard it will not be with me. You assume that when you enter the building, your seal will last as long as mine. Not true. All you will do is give the FAST Team something to do. It is selfish to think that with facial hair you can do the same job. Give the pak to someone who cares and don't waste our time. So again I will ask, Are you a Fire Fighter or not?

[Jason762 2]

In my opinion if you want a beard, go for it. You're a volunteer firefighter, this means you have a life besides the fire department. I can see why a bared can cause an issue, but if this person is solely VOLUNTEER, I think he can do whatever he wants to himself.

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DFFD,

so what ever happened to holding paid and vol's to the same standard??? I have heard over and over again on this website that we are all the same, but by your statement vol FF's can do what they want. Grow a beard...sure FF1...ah, who needs it, we are volunteers. Why don't you stop hiding behind the word volunteer, and agree to the same standards as career FF's. Once again folks, this is a job, not a hobby.

[Guest DFFD227]

Lets face it, Paid firemen are paid firemen...they get a paycheck every week. So since they are getting paid to do it, a rule like "No beards' makes sense...that is there career, they are getting paid to do it, and that is where they are getting all the health benefits etc from. Volunteers have jobs outside the fire service. If I am a construction worker, and on the side, a volunteer, and I want a beard, I will grow a beard. Now if my boss came to me and said, No construction workers can have beards, then no beards it is. I'm not arguing that beards can mess up a good ceil on a mask, I am arguing that if I volunteer for my town, I shouldn't have to be hassled, or else I would take my business elsewhere. Again, this is not personal, I am just speaking on how I would feel if this situation arose...and ya I would never grow a beard anyway.

[TRUCK6018 50]

Lets face it, Paid firemen are paid firemen...they get a paycheck every week. So since they are getting paid to do it, a rule like "No beards' makes sense...that is there career, they are getting paid to do it, and that is where they are getting all the health benefits etc from. Volunteers have jobs outside the fire service. If I am a construction worker, and on the side, a volunteer, and I want a beard, I will grow a beard.

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This issue has nothing to do with career vs volunteer! If you think it is, it's just another excuse of a volunteer firefighter telling his chief "you can make me do that". Well, the answer is simple. You can be made to do it! If you don't want to follow the rules, the door's over there ---->.

This issue has alot to do about two things:

First and formost safety. If OSHA says no good, it's no good. Like it or not. If you chief says no good, no good. Fire doesn't take preferance with career or volunteers. Being a volunteer only means you don't get a paycheck.

Second, professionalism. Again, career and volunteer doesn't mean a hill of beans. As firefighters, emt's, whatever, you're dealing with the public. Mrs Jones calls the FD for a problem, you're expected to act professional, look professional and act courtious. The publie don't give a darn if your career or volunteer. They want help.

What if the XYZ Volunteer Fire Department allowed you to wear a beard and the whole department chose to do so? I guess there would be no interior attacks there. No primary searches. No nothing. Let's just let the fire burn it's self out then sort through the remains and hope you find survivors.

There is only one fire department (brigade) I know of that might be able to get away with the beard issue because they are truely the "bearded ones". This is in the Kiryas Joel village located in Monroe, NY (Orange County).

Kiryas Joel firefighters

Kiryas Joel Emergency Services

[antiquefirelt 994]

I'll start by saying none of our personnel have any form of a beard other than 2-3 days growth (how about this?) But as the quoted from the Respiratory Standard: no facial hair that interferes with the SCBA mask seal. If you pass a fit test with a beard, haven't you proven that your beard doesn't interfere? As for teh test vs. the real deal: the test is done under negative pressure so the chance of a leak is much greater. When wearing the SCBA your mask is slightly pressurized pushing any contaminants away from any break in the seal. Also, if we are doing teh fit test correctly you should work the seal with movements and talking to try and dislodge it. No it ain't perfect but if we keep forcing volunteers to do things we're going to run out. As for career personnel, look as DCFD last year or so for a case of religous beliefs and beards. The career guys whose beliefs require beards can keep them and be interior firefighters.

[ex-commish 490]

I'll start by saying none of our personnel have any form of a beard other than 2-3 days growth (how about this?) But as the quoted from the Respiratory Standard: no facial hair that interferes with the SCBA mask seal. If you pass a fit test with a beard, haven't you proven that your beard doesn't interfere? As for teh test vs. the real deal: the test is done under negative pressure so the chance of a leak is much greater. When wearing the SCBA your mask is slightly pressurized pushing any contaminants away from any break in the seal. Also, if we are doing teh fit test correctly you should work the seal with movements and talking to try and dislodge it. No it ain't perfect but if we keep forcing volunteers to do things we're going to run out. As for career personnel, look as DCFD last year or so for a case of religous beliefs and beards. The career guys whose beliefs require beards can keep them and be interior firefighters.

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You ask if you pass a fit test with a beard haven't you proven that your beard doesn't interfere? Perhaps but I ask has it been proven that you have a good seal, even with possitive pressure? With the law saying no beards why take a chance on someone getting injured and perhaps losing benefits if it is proven you were injured by not having a proper seal. Now some would say what chances are that happening but you have to remember we are in the buisness of what could happen no what we think may not happen.

As far as the DC firefighters, what did they win? Is there religious belief's going to prevent contaminents from breeching the seal?

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

[antiquefirelt 994]

Let me clear some of this up: I personally think a No Beards Policy has merit. I find they rarely look professional in a uniform, but thats my opinion. The cops in our City got the right to wear them just to piss off their old Chief. It worked but they look stupid! As for the seal: If the fit test doesn't test for a "good seal" than what good is it? Don't tell OSHA or the BLS or else we'll have to go through a 5 hour test procedure under all expected conditions. It won't always work given the enviroment we operate in, beard or not. As far as letting contaminants in: if they get in - check your SCBA because it is working correctly if anything gets in. If you lose a seal the big concern is losing precious air! Does your dept. policy speak to how often you must shave? On my shift one guy probably will never have to shave in his life, another needs to shave every 4-5 hours to be "clean shaven". How about our long droopy mustaches that we pride ourselves on? Most grow into the seal area. Again, personally, I don't like them, but I'm frequently accused of forcing my opinions into the work rules. You know like uniforms ought to be uniform, looking and acting professional are part of your job, etc.

[x152 179]

<<Lets face it, Paid firemen are paid firemen...they get a paycheck every week. So since they are getting paid to do it, a rule like "No beards' makes sense...that is there career, they are getting paid to do it, and that is where they are getting all the health benefits etc from.>>

OK? paychecks and beards? = relevance?

I have read on countless occasions on these boards that Vol. and career are supposed to be the same. Is that convenient mantra or do we actually live (and in this case potentially die) by our words?

I was under the impression that the funny looking device with the air bottle attached to it was the primary reason why the issue of facial hair is an issue.

Unless certain departments are solely exterior and maintaining a distance outside of the effects of radiant heat, then the argument should have been self-explanatory.

Facial hair = poor seal = products of combustion = lungs/face/and other = hyperbaric chamber, burn unit, or funeral.....easy right?

[HFD23 37]

Great topic

I couldn't agree more that if u want to be a interior FF you shave, and just because your facial hair may allow you to pass the mask fit test doesn’t mean crap so what one day you passed how bout when you let your growth get away a little and the seal worsens... why would you be dumb enough to have growth, potentially have a bad seal and take that risk to you own life of loosing air and maybe running out or even risk taking in any of that crap that’s burning and god knows what it is (positive pressure or not its still a unnecessary risk) then lets make it worse your loosing air your running low on your way out guess what now we may have to deploy FAST, great put more personnel into a burning building who are now at risk because of your stupid facial growth needs, and now were going to have to establish another FAST so lets get another rig on the road running lights and sirens to the job knowing some one may be down and now even more adrenalin is rushing and siren foot kicks in, (No not saying this always happens but we all know people do it I am sure many of you have seen it time and time again).

Paid vs. vollie don’t matter = standards all around

you want to be a FF you do what OSHA says, this isn’t a joke or a game or playing dress up you want to do the job you follow the rules of a firefighter no I am only a vollie I do what I want......

[DMA327 12]

Bravo HFD... Right on the money.

It should not be any different if you're a volunteer! Firefighting is all about safety and following guidelines and standards which are obviously set for a reason! If you want a beard that badly, don't hop on the fire truck and put other lives in jeopardy because you lost a seal and ran out of air!

And people wonder why we still lose firemen in training evolutions

[firecapt32 282]

Johnny vv what a great subject i think you might have hit a nerver or 2 in here.homer glad to see your back writing havent herd you in a while.

I believe and feel free to correct me if im wrong but the State says no more then "one days growth" for firefighter one.

Interior firefighter's have no place waring beards that went out 100 yrs ago we invented masks to protect us from the hazzards of fire. how simple can it get. I havent heard any one saying I like sandles so i'm not waring boots?? ohh wait i have my fav basball cap on I dont need a helmet. get the pic

where alsfirefighter on this subject??

Edited March 12, 2006 by firecapt32

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I'm right here. First I'm with V squared. Second, DFFD, your comment is exactly what is wrong with the fire service and many departments. What's next, if you want to be under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol, that's ok because that is what you want to do because you're a volunteer? What is this a clubhouse? A hobby? When you join a department you are making a commitment to a profession, one of the most dangerous in the world at that. You're not joining the Elks club. In fact if you don't want to follow the rules go join them, or the Lion's club, the Moose Lodge or the Freemasons. If your a volunteer you have a life outside of the fire department? LOL. We all have lives outside the fire department. The state has a no facial hair policy for all training involving SCBA use. So guess if you don't want to shave, no training. Personal choice sure. That is why they have social status at departments also. REMEMBER, YOU CHOSE THE FIRE SERVICE, THE FIRE SERVICE DIDN'T CHOOSE YOU. THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS IN LIFE!

What it comes down to is this:

1. Believe it or not...its not about you. Whether your paid, volunteer or whatever else you want to call yourself. You are there to serve the community, not yourself, your ego or whatever else some do it for.

2. If you don't want to follow the rules because you feel your "special" because you volunteer. Go somewhere else. We meaning the fire service don't need you. The community doesn't need you and your department doesn't need you. People that feel that "I'm just a volunteer," or "I volunteer so I'm owed something" are like a cancer and that mentality spreads. As already said the fire service owes you nothing, you owe the fire service and the people.

[Jason762 2]

I'm right here.  First I'm with V squared.  Second, DFFD, your comment is exactly what is wrong with the fire service and many departments.  What's next, if you want to be under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol, that's ok because that is what you want to do because you're a volunteer?  What is this a clubhouse?  A hobby?  When you join a department you are making a commitment to a profession, one of the most dangerous in the world at that.  You're not joining the Elks club.  In fact if you don't want to follow the rules go join them, or the Lion's club, the Moose Lodge or the Freemasons.  If your a volunteer you have a life outside of the fire department?  LOL.  We all have lives outside the fire department.  The state has a no facial hair policy for all training involving SCBA use.  So guess if you don't want to shave, no training.  Personal choice sure.  That is why they have social status at departments also.  REMEMBER, YOU CHOSE THE FIRE SERVICE, THE FIRE SERVICE DIDN'T CHOOSE YOU.  THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS IN LIFE!

What it comes down to is this:

1.  Believe it or not...its not about you.  Whether your paid, volunteer or whatever else you want to call yourself. You are there to serve the community, not yourself, your ego or whatever else some do it for. 

2.  If you don't want to follow the rules because you feel your "special" because you volunteer.  Go somewhere else.  We meaning the fire service don't need you.  The community doesn't need you and your department doesn't need you.  People that feel that "I'm just a volunteer," or "I volunteer so I'm owed something" are like a cancer and that mentality spreads.  As already said the fire service owes you nothing, you owe the fire service and the people.

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ALS,

thank you for having some common sense and an open mind. People on this website constantly speak of professionalism and equality between career and vols, but then in complete contradiction to this, posts like that by DFFD in this thread and posts like the recently deleted 10 things about being a FF... are detrimental and harming to your service. Yes, most of you do not agree with what was said, but it only takes one bad comment to make us all look foolish. The bottom line is all of us need to follow the same standards...I can see that you all can talk the talk, but what we need is for you to be able to walk the walk. Until attitudes like those previously stated are abolished you can never progress. There is only one set of standards out there, not one for vol., one for career, one for combination, etc. Follow the standards or go home, end of story.

[maisela 0]

A firefighter is a firefighter, whether he be paid or volunteer. Therefore, ALL firefighters should be held to the same standard. If OSHA or NIOSH has regulations on facial hair then every firefighter should be held to those standards. Also, I think that a department loses a certain degree of credibility or respect when firefighters show up to a scene unshaven and scraggly looking. The public has expectations from their civil servants and one of those is professionalism. I know you've been told not to judge a book by its cover but when John Q. Public calls the fire department, his first judgment is going to be on the appearance of those responding. The general public can't judge us on our tactics because they simply don't have firematic experience (usually). They're going to be looking at image. And clean shaven firefighters, police officers, EMS providers or any other first responders are going to resonate better with the public than those who are not. Just my two cents.

[ex-commish 490]

Training Vital in South Carolina Firefighter's Accident

Updated: 03-10-2006 07:06:54 PM

SUSAN NICOL KYLE

Firehouse.Com News

Training is being credited for saving a volunteer firefighter from South Carolina, seriously burned last week after falling through a ceiling into a burning room.

"She really saved herself by doing everything she had been taught," said Howe Springs Deputy Chief William Dillon. "It could have been much worse, believe me."

Jennifer Huggins, 21, was back in surgery Friday at Augusta Hospital in Georgia, one week after the incident that left her with burns on her scalp, leg, hand and buttocks.

Dillon said he and Huggins were in an attic of an apartment complex where eight apartments had burned. "The apartment below us had been checked not five minutes before, and the fire was out."

Unfortunately, that wasn't the case at all. Huggins fell through the floor into a burning closet, piled with clothes. Her helmet and right glove were knocked off in the fall, but she managed to put them back on. Her flash hood stayed on.

"As she rolled over to kill the flames, she said the fire was coming up in her face. But she remembered her training, to get to a wall."

Dillon, who dropped down to help, said before going into the attic, they had been in the apartment below and remembered the layout. "That walk-through is what saved us."

As the fire in the room grew more intense, Dillon said he didn't think they had time to wait to be rescued. "We made a run for it into the bedroom. Through it all, she kept her composure. I know she was in intense pain but she did what her training told her to do."

Both firefighters were taken to a local trauma center. Dillon, who suffered burns to his throat, leg and neck, was treated and released. Huggins was flown the burn center in Georgia for special treatment. Her condition was upgraded from critical to serious but guarded.

The 21-year-old single mother has a long road to recovery ahead of her, Dillon said, adding that her fellow volunteers are helping in any way they can.

Investigators are trying to determine the cause of the blaze as well as how the fire rekindled in the apartment.

"All everyone down here is saying is that Jennifer saved herself. That's all there is to it..."

Howe Springs Fire Co.

Some hobby

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

[hudson144 150]

standards on beards,long hair have been established over the years because of safety concerns, for some of us who happen to have a larger facial area because of loss of hair its not a problem, for some firefighters who elect to wear their hair long against the rules of the depts that they work for as a firefighter are only putting themselves in harms way and for the depts who let those members get away with it are only opening themselves up for a potential lawsuit.remember-alot of these standards have been drawn up because of past incidents where members have been hurt/killed at the fire scene. but then again i guess you can't get hurt or burn't if you don't go into the structure when it is on fire!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Monty 35]

Glad to see such an overwhelming response favoring the clean shaven policy. Now if only our local community departments or county(ies) would set a policy and stick to it.

I'm also far from convinced about 'exterior' status. I know it is very common, but what about the MPO when the wind shifts and all the black stuff is blowing around the rig 100 yards or more away from the structure?

What about the hazmat spill as someone mentioned? Now, if you read OSHA's Interpretation, anyone that responds to a suspected Hazmat incidents needs to be at least operations Pretty sure that requires a clean shaven face. However, I know of non-awareness firefighters responding to hazmat calls. Again, it would be nice to have an enforced policy - at least I'm not aware of one.

These rules may be excessive, but there is a lot of thought that goes in to them. As mentioned, it's not just your life. It's the life of others, FAST or whoever, that may need to rescue you. It's the escalation of the incident because of the diversion caused. It's the workers comp payments, death benefits etc. The list goes on.