daplachta

Who is paying for tens of thousands of gallons of water if it's coming off a municipal hydrant ?
(*)

Not EVERY town has these issues though. I think in towns where response times are lackluster due to not being able to get a crew this ought to happen but the towns who are still 100% volly that have little to no issue getting out shouldn't have to change. If ain't broke, don't fix it.

I was hoping to see something about testing professional racing pace cars on the highways

I mean, we are just volunteers! No one can hold us accountable. We're only trying to do out best.
To quote the great Sean Connery "Your best? Losers always complain about trying your best. Winners go home and "have a nice dinner" with the prom queen"

Is this really a question that is being asked. Should a fire chief have fire training. Come on really

Remember the owner may also have a good reason to tell you not to fight the fire so before chaging in find out why.
One of my friends reloads Ammo and probably has close to 10,000 rounds of ammo plus powder, lead and other related materials and I would not want to try to fight a fire at his house.

I agree with you brother. I have been here for 22 years, I am a captain now, and I see it way too much. The same old excuse every time the training schedule comes around, their too busy and have no time. But then when it comes time for the chief to pick someone for a task, they suddenly feel as if they are more than qualified? If you dont have the training you wont do the task. They cry all the time that its too much time...suck it up. You want to fight fires you need to know what your doing, yet they all think they can pack up right of the street with no training, and why, well ofcourse, because their daddy is or was chief, or their uncle, grand-daddy, mother, brother, sister, aunt....Does having a relative in the dept make you trained?? Dont think so.
I have a guy in my dept running around telling everyone he is trained as an interior firefighter, yet he cant give us certificates when asked. So one day I get sick of listening to the blowhard bragging and I call the fire coordinators office and request a copy of his training transcripts. What do I get? Two classes...Essentials and AVET. After an extensive argument at the firehouse I finaly got him to understand that you cant hide behind the term "Volunteer" and pretend to be what you are not. Essentials of back then is the equivilent of todays Scene Support Ops, I told him if he wants to be interior he has until fall to get Firefighter I, FBAA, and Firefighter Safety & Survival, then he has to get checked out at a drill.
Sorry for the rant, its kind of jumbled and off topic a little but its something that bothers me. We go into IDLH situations every time we get the call, and yet there are still volunteers that do not hold themsleves to the same training standards as the rest of us, and no one does anything about it. Not me, not any more, now that I am an officer things are going to change in my department. I would rather have 2 or 3 QUALIFIED interiors and have to rely on mutual aid more, than continue to have people with little to no training.
Stay safe out there.

I'mnot trying take anything away from White Plains FD, but why is this thread entitled "White Plains FD Rescues Students" when the article clip mentions it was two alert White Plains Police Officers who roused the students?

So they don't work with the cops at all? Perhaps that's why the suspect was able to flee the country. They may be exceptional crime scene investigators and handle evidence admirably but the human side of this case was botched. If the PD had been involved perhaps they would might have been able to prevent her flight to avoid prosecution.
Arson is a crime and in this Houston case there were unrelated crimes.

+1

Your assertion was that the PD is trying to perform an FD function and we were merely pointing out that PD performed these services first in many communities thereby refuting your point as it could be argued that the FD's started to perform.
What in the emergency services is based strictly upon need? There are many more duplicative resources especially in Westchester County. Nobody suggested that history and tradition dictate our roles; we merely highlighted a contrarian viewpoint. On what standards should we base these needs? I wish we did more needs assessments to determine what was needed vs. what is popular or more cool.
Having been one of the officers to which you're referring, I will argue that the WCPD ESU could perform most extrications very well regardless of the unit staffing. The tool is really a one-person job anyway and additional resources/support could always be requested. One of the toughest extrications I ever worked, I worked with an EMS supervisor from a commercial EMS and not the FD.
I'll counter your hostage argument with what happens when FD is on a fire and a pin job comes in or vice versa?
I don't think they're competing and the 289 Nep scaffolding job proves that point. PD and FD worked well together.
Yup, that's who I meant.
SWAT may be one function of ESU but ESU generally performs many other services besides SWAT. The ESU or CIU trucks in Westchester County do much more than just SWAT. LAPD SWAT is just that, SWAT.
We've discussed this at length in other threads and I think the consensus was no, they shouldn't all be cross-trained.
What differences are you referring to?
Your initial post was construed by many, myself included, to be rather critical of cops in NY. I, and others, have responded to dispute your assertions and have done so factually and respectfully. The discussion has also morphed from a comparison of police in Texas and New York to who should provide rescue services in Westchester County and it is slanted against existing PD units.
I wanted to give you a negative rep point because I don't think the initial post articulated your position well and when someone has to start it with a disclaimer that you're not being critical it is generally because they are.
If you want to discuss regional differences in law enforcement let's do that but let's not do so while simultaneously insinuating that cops in NY are somehow less than their peers in Texas.
Finally, your last remark seems to be hlghly inflammatory. What exactly do you mean with that remark?

So now you are comparing barbers to surgeons.. thats just silly.
If it was your goal to make this an "interesting discussion " you went about it the wrong way because your first post sounded like it came from someone with an ax to grind.
I think this discussion has proved interesting but I don't think it has gone the way you thought or would have liked it to which is evidenced by your last line of " but this discussion validated what I thought... it is different."
It honestly seems like you have something against law enforcement

<BR><BR>You being a dispatcher and having friends that are cops doesn't give you a law enforcement background. My uncle was a Yonkers firefighter who was injured on the job and got a diabiltiy pension but that certainly doesn't give me a fire fighting background.<BR><BR>The "taxes you pay" for police services will always keep you safe because no matter what a cop is doing they will always drop everything to get to a hot job ... if ESU is on a job then a patrolman will be there and help to the best of his ability. <BR><BR>You ask why is competition healthy ? Competition drives people to be the best whereas no competition breeds mediocraty and I don't know about you but i don't want mediocre cops firemen or emt's coming to help me or my family. <BR><BR>You talk about duplication of services ... I wonder if you are a union man because if you were you would realize that the more services you provide, the more spots on the roll call you can justify that means more people that can be hired.<BR><BR>John Q. Public that is in need of rescue doesn't give a s*** who is coming to help him first, he doesn't care if the truck is red or white, if it contains cops or firemen.. as long as then can help the citizen becuause when it comes down to it, thats what matters that the rescue is made.

So, I hear what your saying. But I don't really follow your logic.
Your originally premise was PD's should be doing police work and FD's should be doing fire/rescue work? (Feel free to correct me if I am misquoting you.)
So, in theory, criminal arson cases should be handled by the PD. But if the FD arson guys are as good as PD investigators, they should keep the case, right? By that logic, if a city PD ESU is as good as the FD in terms of their rescue work, they they can continue doing the rescue work???
I think it's either one or the other, but you can't have it both ways.

I always enjoy when someone asks why the Police Departments try to take away work from the Fire Departments.
Let's look at NYPD ESU. NYPD ESU has been providing rescue services for the citizens of New York City since the 1930's. The Fire Department wanted nothing to do with rescue work, especially back in the days when the city was burning down, before the strict fire codes that exist today, along with the use of sprinkler systems, improved building materials, fireproofing, fire prevention programs, and everything else that has lead to a decrease in the number of fires. So for decades, the NYPD ESU was the sole provider of emergency rescue services in the City of New York.
It wasn't until the number of fires began to decrease, that the FDNY started getting involved with rescue work. So, should PD be asking why the FD was trying to duplicate a service already being provided by them? Before a lot of Westchester County Fire Departments purchased extrication equipment, extrications on the Westchester County Parkways were handled by the Westchester County Department of Public Safety. Should County PD have asked why the local FD's were trying to duplicate a service on the parkways already provided by them? The Town of Mount Pleasant Police was the sole provider of extrication services within their jurisdiction for years before the local fire departments purchased extrication equipment. Should the Town of Mount Pleasant PD have asked why the local FD's were trying to duplicate a service already being provided by the local PD?
Personally, I have no problem with FD's handling rescue work, and always look forward to working together at a scene rather then battle eachother. The one benefit I see to having both Firefighters and Police Officers assigned to Emergency Service Units taking part in a rescue, is that it gives you a larger talent pool to pull from in the event of a significant incident. There are some ESU officers who are talented rescue specialists, just as there are Firefighters assigned to Rescue Companies who possess the same talents and level of expertise. Being able to draw from the experiences and talents of both individuals at an incident is beneficial to the overall success of the operation.

There are differences in many things as you move from region to region in the United States; income, accents, history, culture, politics, demographics, etc., etc., etc. The question you raise is not merely applicable to law enforcement. There are vast differences between New York and Texas. I don't think the differences are as great as you believe nor do I think you properly articulated your argument without disparaging cops in NY and the northeast.
I think there is something to be said for the anti-police, anti-government sentiment in the northeast being a contributing factor to your supposition. I think as the country tried to become more politically correct and public service changed from being a calling to a secure job with benefits, we lost some of the service focus that contributed to law enforcement being what it used to be. There are still many hard-chargers in civil service but there are now an equal number of deadbeats just studying for promotional exams with no concept of the job and/or using the stability to advance their education for their next job.
You're flat out wrong about some things. Cops in ESU aren't trying to be firefighters and who says that rescue is a fire function? ESU predates many of the FD rescue resources in Westchester County. Yonkers E-rigs of the 80's were the first paramedics in the city and had the only extrication equipment for many years. The County PD ran an ESU that provided extrication services all over the county before a lot of FD's got their own hurst tools. ESU is not the same as SWAT either. The LAPD runs SWAT but they don't do most of the things that ESU cops do - it is an apples and oranges comparison. In Jersey City, extrications are performed by EMS not fire or PD. White Plains has a police / fire special operations command that works collaboratively.
Duplicating resources? Are you kidding me? You really think that ESU in the couple of cities that have them in Westchester are the duplicative resources and squandering the funding that exists for emergency services. Hmmm, the 59 fire departments, 43 police departments, 60 or so school districts are definitely not duplicative. Who says that EMS is a fire function? PD is an first responder and in many places they are the only BLSFR that responds. We've already covered in other threads that BLSFR is not strictly limited to PD or FD exclusively.
OK, who decides what the core responsibilities are? What do you do when an agency can't/won't/doesn't fulfill it's core responsibilites? Competition exists on many levels in public service and it can be healthy. There are plenty of examples of intra-disciplinary rivalries that are unhealthy; you're broad sweeping generalizations about inter-disciplinary relationships and responsibilities are way off base.
Pity there isn't a negative rep button anymore. Comparing patrol cops in Texas with ESU cops in NY or asserting that certain functions don't have cross-over between disciplines is way off base. There should be collaboration and less division and that's not strictly a PD/FD thing.

Ive read this post many times and I still fail to see the reason for posting it but it most certainly requires a response.
From what I know of you, you have no background in Law Enforcement so your ideas of how cops should feel about being cops and what they should do on duty may be how it is in a perfect world but in reality thats not how it works. This would be like me who knows nothing of fire fighting making critical observations about the fire service and putting all over the post " No offense guys" and " this is not a knock to firefighters".
As far as I've seen, you're the only member on here from texas so you are the only one who could answer your own question of " why are police officers down here so different ?"
I've been a cop for 12 years and I go balls to the wall every day I go into work as do most cops I know. Would it be nice to follow up with every crime victim we deal with ? Yes but we don't have the time or the manpower to do that stuff. How do you know that cops up here don't know their post as well as cops in Texas ?
Cops are in a unique situation to be cross trained in rescue, where as FD's can't be trained in law enforcement specific things... thats just the way it is.
You ask why is there competition ? There always has and always will be competiton in the emergency services and it's healthy to a degree.
You ask why are there not more hudson river patrols ? There are in the summer but not so much in the winter but what does one thing have to do with the other ?
The bottom line is that expanding the scope of your working capabilities means more job security and possibly more state and federal funding.
The biggest difference between cops up here and cops in texas is that maybe cops in texas enjoy a lot more community support than cops in the north east get.

He was probably on scene. Im pretty sure he vollies at his school in addition to pville.

Sounds like we all are worried what happens in the firehouse gets put on facebook. If we are so worried that something bad that happens at the fire house lands there, well maybe you have a bigger problem in your firehouse that you should be watching and takeing care of.

I must admit I just as much a Facebook Wacker as a Bravo wacker. I dont even think about it becuase they dont and shouldnt mix. Facebook is for friend connections and letting the rest of the world know what, where, when, and why. Although there is a lot going on right now and I use it to keep updating family. Bravo is for exactly what it says. "Your knowledge helping others". Fire, EMS, and Rescue Buffs. Its the little people who mix them up.

Haha ya I have been off for a while. I do enjoy the posts but a good number seem to just degrade into pissing matches. The ones flapping their gum's most likely are not dropping useful info. I will give a shout out to alsfirefighter, Remember585, Chief Flynn and Capt Benz, as well as yourself. These guys do add their wealth of knowledge to the site. I have read their posts many times and they ALWAYS have a great attitude and something positive to contribute.

Got off facebook 10/09. Never re-activated my account. Best thing I ever did, and I am 22 years old in college. everyone thinks I am nuts but I dont miss it one bit. Maybe in time to come, far down the road when I want to reconnect with people, I will return. But for now, I dont need it. Plus, I already spend too much time on this website as it is!

Facebook is ok. Maybe it's the monday morning quarterbacking that needs to end. (ya i know that will never happen) People air there issue out and comment on how THEY would have done it. But THEY were most likely in bed or at home watching TV at the time. If you were not there you don't know what happened. And "I talked to a guy who was there.." is not gonna help you either. I do agree that more forums, including this one, have slipped from what they should be. There is a lot of guys flapping there gums and not enough exchanging useful information. The Incident Updates have become the most useful info on here. As a parting though remember that a lot of the facebook issue comes from these kids who shoot their mouths off about stuff and post info online. They are whats killing us on facebook. Most of the guys in my firehouse don't even have facebook accounts and a few don't even own computers.

Well Said!
Your 100% right about Facebook its just another tool in life its not the website that is the problem its the people that use it that go overboard and do not controll what is put on there.