ffp20

padding? how so since you can only use a percentage of OT from yr to yr for pension purposes. huge percentages of disability retirements? where are these taking place? up here anyway are incredibly hard to get for even the most injured workers double dipping? please explain how cops and ff's are doing this inability to fire employees? again please explain on a cop and ff level. In your union, does your local go to bat for employees in trouble? 95% of contributions go to dems? oh really. you must not have read the iaff's lists of where support goes. after the mess in wisconsin you may be correct for the future.

Sir, we went without raises also to keep our health benefits intact. And as was said before, when we had contracts made during "lean" times and took zero's and other declines also, however we didnt demand our contracts be reopened to get increases when funding was better. We dont get rich here. At this point may we have better security than you? maybe cuz i dont know your particular situation. I feel the arguments have become us vs them cuz of one groups percieved advantages over another.

its a stupid bill. things must be in good shape in that state, since they're dealing with this crap.

There are people represnting the taxpayer: THEY ARE THE PEOPLE YOU ELECT TO OFFICE! They are the problem, not the workers. The problem of money going from unions to campaigns are no different at all than money going from vendors, business organizations, and lobyist organization money (like our beloved fire serivce groups, FASNY for one) to political campaigns to gain influence on business contracts and legislative votes-no difference at all. again, the pols are the problem. what unions got exemptions to bamacare????? and what were those exemptions for???

(True enough, but once enacted a municipality is on the hook to pay LOSAP just like it is to pay the pensions of it's full-time employees. A deal is a deal is it not?) It is, except in wisconsin, ohio, and indiana apparently.

Oh Gamewell, you maybe took my post out of context about "under your scenario, be totally useless since he wouldn't be able to put out fires." my intent, and my entire statement supports that without those who can do the actual interior work, all the other functions are for nothing then. Thats not to take anything away from other functions but the reality of the world is that without folks who can do the most dangerous and physically demanding work, fires will go out by running out of fuel and rescues dont take place. Those are the people we (and many or most other depts) lack the most of.

(I don't think it would work; it would be the same thing as telling a career firefighter who is assigned to desk duties that he must take a cut in pay because he is not doing "interior" work and under your scenario, be totally useless since he wouldn't be able to put out fires. ) Sir, thats not exactly true since a guy doing desk duty typically isnt up for OT (extra pay). Besides, desk duty in many places is a bid position, so if he wants it he bids it knowing a potential difference in pay.

(The LOSAP program was designed as a shop up today and we will pay you later system.) Sir, you got the right!! we were told by the losap provider that now that people are collecting, we arent paying in enough per year. HUGE increases, like more than double the cost over a two year peroid. When they got the job, they told us XX amount per year and then they say, oh, you need to pay more than double to keep up. So, with 6 figures going into the LOSAP every year, we still cant man the rigs with firefighters. Maybe thats why i have a bad attitude towards losaps. We have enough fire police and a bunch of exterior people, we dont have enough interiors, especially during the day. As a recruitment tool, i feel it was a huge failure. As a retention tool for older members, it helped, but they're not interior qualified ff's.

Well 38, we disagree on stuff. and thats ok. however, i guess in your fire service world, a guy who: -does nothing -makes few or no calls -does little or no training -purposely shows up late for runs -stands down the road in pretty, shiney new gear showing civilians he's a "fireman" while the other same few are doing all the work -is there for meeting night and free beer, but wasnt there for the run 15 mins before meeting starts should be looked upon and should be treated the same as those who: -are there very frequently -has training and certifications up the who-ha -goes out of thier way to make the dept a better place -stays on top thier game -can be counted on to do the right thing -are those that others feel good putting their lives in the hands of I dont wanna be in that fire service world.

Yes Sir, i cut and pasted parts of your posts. Your arguments just arent holding water except for the one of how to pay for it. That is a VERY valid point. The points about supposed discrimination are not however. My point with incentives and retention activities are that they need to dwell on what depts, at the end of the day, really need and dont have enough of. And that my friend are interior firefighters. I under stand we have places for those that cant do it, but, without the interior folks doing the deed-you know, wearing breathing apparatus (inside and outside), doing searches, crawling hot hallways, doing technical rescue, venting roofs, etc, everyone else is of no use. Exterior folks actually support the function of the interior folks. If you're going to offer incentives, those who perfom more demanding and more dangerous tasks deserve to be allowed a greater (or premium) incentive than those who dont. I've heard folks say that why should they bust their a** and get hurt when they'll get the losap point just the same as the guy who is. That what you get when you offer losaps for all, just for showing up. Just sayin.

(Guys who can drive AND go interior?) in my first post, i said maintaining AND keeping qualified on the apparatus along with maintaining interior status would be needed. In other words, back to my original post: to get a premium level of incentive, you must maintain the premium level of qualification and performance. any thing less earns a lesser grade of incentive. To me, thats fair.

(hats a OPFC or NYS law that defines who is "Interior"? You take FF1 and your good? You just need the Chief's say so after getting FF1? Do you need FF2 also? What about FF Saftey and Survival class? Thats a good one to take for interior guys.. Do you need what we called in the Army "Time in Grade?" What if those courses arent offered locally at the county or state level, or the classes are full? "I WANT to be interior, I just need the class, but it's full/not offered, but rest assured I'd take it if I could" Is it fair to deny that guy his insurance because he doesnt have the cert, but we all know he can do it? What about "dual hatters"? Guys who can drive AND go interior?) If ya cant into a class, you have no other choice but to wait for one or go someplace where its offered. A sizable percentage of classes in this area gewt cancelled due to not having enough students. Frankly now your escaping the reality of whats going on these days in the fire service. regarding is it fair: what business are we in? Using your logic if i cant get into an EMT class 'cuz its full the ambulance squad shouldnt require me to be an EMT, which is rediculous. Or better yet like what i heard one time from a member: "you cant do daytime drills 'cuz i work during the day and cant attend and its not fair to me." I shot back with; "well you cant have night time drills then 'cuz i work nights and i cant attend and its not fair to me." That ended the conversation. If we arent going to do something 'cuz it might be unfair to a member for a short period of time and have the rest of the organization suffer, we may as well just close the doors.

(Another example is what happens is some one WANTS to be interior, but cant because they are clastrophobic or have some medical issue that they cant get cleared by the district/dept doctor. Is the district discriminating against someone with a medical condition beyond their control? Some Americans with Disabilities Act lawyer would love that case... ) Those and other medical conditions will prevent one from beoming a career FD. Is it discrimination there? You're grasping for straws here sir.

(If you give some thing to one group and not to others, you have a good case for descrimination) Im gonna call ya on this by saying: BS! descrimination based on what?

(So we should only extend these benefits to a interior FF's only? What about those who drive the apparatus to the call? Are they not important? Thats a law suit waiting to happen right there.) If your exteior only, you'd get less or different benefits. exteriors and drivers are important, but are totally useless if theres nobody there to put out fires.

(So we should only extend these benefits to a interior FF's only? What about those who drive the apparatus to the call? Are they not important? Thats a law suit waiting to happen right there. ) I said in my post the group who qualifies also has to maintain their apparatus qualifications, so theres your drivers. Most have issues having enough interiors showing up, lack of "drivers" is less of an issue. My home towns issues are typical of those with LOSAPs. We have plenty of fire police cuz they're sticking around building losap points, and sometime collecting too. We have plenty of folks who are exterior only. But what we, and most other depts need most are INTERIOR FF's. if incentives arent getting and keeping them, there something wrong. Why should a guy who never has to lay his life on the line get the same incentives as the interior guy who does put himself at greater risk??? To get your losap points, you need to simply show up for some calls and attend some drills. thats it. The money that some depts spend on losaps i feel, can be better spent on incentives to get those who put out fires, not watch others do it. Maybe offering some assistance on their healthcare or other living expenses may make better sense. people that do less, get less. thats all, and, more fair to those who do more. As far a law suit waiting to happen, how so????

Oh yes, cost would be a significant issue. Keep in mind many places are already paying significant costs for LOSAPs that dont work. Could those costs be better spent paying for programs that actually work?

If you had performance requirements of your members, you'd have your answer. If a person is interior qualified and maintains it, makes a required percentage of runs, does in station duty time, maintains apparatus qualifications, maintains training requirements, etc-they get the coverage. If they dont, they lose it. I didnt mention exterior only members, fire police,etc cuz what depts really need most are INTERIOR firefighters. LOSAPS only keep older guys around on fire police and other less physically demanding tasks. LOSAPs have doen NOTHING to put interior qualified FIREFIGHTERS on the apparatus.

Eli's humorous statement bears some truth, at least "up here". My intent with thie is not to lead this to a career/volunteer ff bash forum, but, i have to ask: does anyone have any idea of what percentage of ESU members are on volunteer FD's on the island or in upstate counties??

Heres one for ya. the City of Canandaigua NY FD. They laid off FF's and "recruited" new vol ff's to transistion from a "mostly paid" fd to a "mostly volunteer" fd and now routinely calls in mutual aid

I'm not saying the union shouldnt have agreed to givebacks, i understand the reasons they did what they did. However, now every year the city (any city actually) can come out and threaten layoffs again and expect even more givebacks and they'd have little choice but to give in.

crap eh? compared to what? arent the new fdny ladders smeals?

Yep, the guy also does a conservative radio talk show in albany. He speaks about consolidation of services but i dont see it happening with the volunteer dept where he's chief (wealthy suburban town). the station hates public employees, especially career firefighters and is vocal about it.

no nerve touched yet here. Lets not forget LOSAP's, FireAct, SAFER, etc. All gov money thrown at special interests that just happens to be US. But lets conveniently ignore that because "we're special".

Lets not forget LOSAP's, FireAct, SAFER, etc. All gov money thrown at special interests that just happens to be US. But lets conveniently ignore that because "we're special".