Doc

As usual, ALS brings a lot of good thoughts on the subject. I think every department has to formalize the post-incident critique process. If you make talking about incidents an open, structured activity, you can head off a lot of the negative back-channel stuff that slowly kills organizaions. Making this work requires mutual respect and a solid set of ground rules - and open minds and patience. It's amazing how rumors and heresay can distort things. Also, I definitely think every fire service leader should learn that wrecking another department will not build up yours.

Wow... hardcore. :sighs, shakes head: When I was living down in PG County a few years back EVERYBODY warned me that the station 12 guys were a special breed. My cohorts down in Oxon Hill, Allentown Road and Boulevard Heights would never have allowed this to be taped!!!

As a fire truck riding Santa, I find this whole thread amusing. Yeah, it's dangerous. There are risks to putting my imitiation bowl full of jelly in the hose bed for six hours. I know some moron behind a steering wheel could put my a** in a box in a hose bed. I assume the risk, the district assumes the risk and for no damn reasonable justification other than... it's Christmas. Now go ahead, flame on and tell me how the terrorists win because I ride on top of a fire truck once a year.

A developer is putting an office building on that lot in the spring. I understand that the old derrick will be incorporated in the building design.

LOL! I Got an old Survivair S-30 airpack I'll sell... the ones that look like a Fisher-Price toy! Cylinder is due for a hydrostatic test - otherwise in great condition.

I t was called Fairchild Industries. They were a semiconductor manufacturer. I guess they finished the environmental remediation, but it's still not usable for much.

I think initially people were making NIMS out to be a lot more (and worse) than it is. Yes, tieing grant money to compliance gets people's attention and the implementation people are certainly keeping everybody worried and nervous about the next wave of FY requirements. But I think a well run department was already employing much of the NIMS content - just without the cool names and organizational charts. I'm glad to hear departments formalizing the establishment of command on scene, but as far as daily reality's concerned, it's no differnet than the ten codes and old radio coms... Establishing command still means a chief is on the scene and operations are underway. Terminating command means it's time to go back home. It just forces a more formalized way of doing things we take for granted. It's also a good way of familiarizing people with what will happen at a big incident. One of the consistent critiques of large incidents is that mutual aid personnel from far-off places spend a lot of time being confused and unsure of local ops. This wastes time and endangers lives. It seems that just by having people take the classes before hand, they're more aware of what's going to happen when they're mobilized to assist at a major disaster - as opposed to being completely lost looking down the street for the tanker that's hovering over their heads. For the daily smells and bells, bumpercars and gas pains, though, I think you can just keep doing what you were doing - having a consistent operation... an incident commander overseeing safe operations, a clear chain of command, a clear set of objectives and tasks, awareness of your resources, and accountability for your qualified people. As long as departments realize this and don't spend the first ten minutes of an incident passing out vests, drawing diagrams, and calling the probie "Supply Unit Leader", things are going to be fine. I do, however, feel that NIMS was designed to present a hurdle to the grant application process. Having personally contributed to scientific research grant proposals, I know that the funding agencies like to create complicated criteria to eliminate applicants. The quicker they can narrow down the list of eligible projects, the quicker they can go home for dinner. So they invest time in coming up with the most impossible applications, procedures, and endorsements - then they subject you to riddiculous scrutiny, paying attention to insignificant details - disqualifying applicants for infuriatingly small departures from normalcy. Many worthwhile projects get the can for simple mispellings or bad punctuation. So I see NIMS as the Fed's new money filter. Everybody wants free money - now we have to work for it.

I agree - I think everybody does MVA's far more often than structure fires. We've had too many near misses and incidents with aggressive drivers. One adle-brained driver could cream an entire company in an instant. I especially worry about working in busy intersections. Lane closings and cone laying are no-brainers out on interstates, but I see a lot of cutting corners on the smaller roads - and generally I notice that the cars pass the scene a lot faster on side roads. There's gotta be some rule that you only rubberneck on interstates or something. When you have multiple turning lanes, heavy congestion around the scene and fire police conflicting with big arrays of traffic lights, things can get unpredictible.

Correct me where I'm wrong - A fire district is a governmental municipality, like a school district or water district, that is established to levy taxes to support a service within a defined geographic area. That geographic area could be an entire town or a part of it, or parts of multiple towns and villages, or any combination. A fire district is authorized by law to submit a requested sum of money from the towns or villages it services and the town or village must collect taxes to pay it. Thus a fire district directly uses taxpayer money. A fire district must be governed by a board elected by the residents of the district so that there is representation by those who are taxed. A fire district may obtain manpower for providing services from one or more fire companies, or may hire employees. Fire companies are non-governmental organizations established to provide fire suppression services. They may be contracted to provide protection to any municipality(s) such as towns, villages or cities and recieve a payment for these services. Fire companies may be contracted to protect one or more entire municipality, or sections of municipalities called fire protection districts (FPD's). Whether the name of the district and company match depends on a few things. It seems to me that if a fire district is formed after or concurrently with the formation of a fire company, they usually have the same name. If I'm not mistaken, the process of forming fire districts (not FPD') is relatively new (like this past century). So the fire companies might have been around long before the district was incorporated. In that case, you might have a fire company named one thing, and the distrcit named something else. If there's more than one company operating within a single district, it's more likely that the district name won't be the same as either company. But for the life of me, i have no idea what a fire protection association is. I know of only Mohegan and Garrison. Outside of NY they're more popular.

I had just mentioned to a friend that there is ALWAYS an aircraft overhead. About three or four times a week I get to watch one of those C-5's lumbering over Rt 52 on final approach with gear down. Sure, most of the time, they're arriving with fuel tanks low, but it could potentially be a lot of fuel. When they're doing touch-n-go's they come through once or twice an hour for an afternoon and you know that when they start, they've got a bit of jet fuel on board. It's a nice reminder that in the wrong set of circumstances we could have a major problem. The C-5's are the most noticible thanks to the unique sounds they make (especially when they start messing with the throttles). Then you consider all the commercial traffic in and out of there too. I think every department should have a plan in place. Primarily for the potential Mass Casualties and off-road access. Most pilots will try to ditch away from population centers, so getting equipment into a crash site could be a problem. Every community should address this possibility in their emergency plans.

Active Rombout member here.

I think the tanker / engine / pumper-tanker / engine-tanker naming thing is another one of those confusions caused by evolving technology. In a lot of the old apparatus sales brochures I've collected from the 1960's and 1970's anything with over 750 gallons was called a pumper-tanker or tanker. Maybe they were still concerned that an engine shouldn't have water - just hard sleeve, some fittings, a bin of coal and a bag of horse apples. It lookes like following the acceptance of the diesel / air brakes combo, tank sizes just took off to meet the increased understanding of modern fireloads. Now it seems like 750 to 1000 gal is the norm for an engine. So, yeah. One department's pumper-tanker is another ones engine. Somebody once told me it depends on how deep in the sands of history a department keeps it's head. I think it has more to do with hydrant spacing and whether or not you know how to use a jet siphon.

Yeah, it does seem outrageous. Out here in the private sector, where I work, our payroll department puts the non-wage benefits at 42% of actual salary. And THAT doesn't include the portion of health, dental, optical and life I have to pay in every two weeks (approximately 3% of takehome pay). They say it includes the actual costs of the benefits plus the internal support and program management overhead (ie, paying our payroll and benefits departments to do what it is they do). Oh, no pension either... If I want to retire I have to put as much asside in my 401K as I can stand to not use to pay my bills now. Luckily if I put in 6% my "generous" employer will kick in an additional 3%! So, yeah, I get a little back assuming they don't lay me off when I become unproductive (paid too much) before I can get vested in my employer contributions. And when I can retire depends on if the market tanks or not. Luckily I'm still paid hourly and get OT, but if they choose to reward me with a promotion to management I become "exempt" and go salaried... meaning the 10+ hours of OT I put in each week due to the fact that I now do the jobs that five people would have done three years ago is a "Gift" to the CEO. I get paid in the satisfaction that I'm fulfilling the corporate mission and "delighting the shareholders". It's all part of that incredible American productivity that's keeping our service economy affloat... not getting paid for putting in 12 hour days and weekends. On the bottom line, this is ideal for a business. Health / Worker's Comp insurance prices keep going up, pension maintenance for the swelling and aging baby boomers, you name it... less working age people supporting a bigger population of retirees who live longer and get chronic illnesses... Cancer and heart disease used to kill a lot more people... now they live for decades on a steady diet of chemo, Lipitor, and Viagara - all made affordable by prescription plans. It adds up and is reflected in how much the insurance and medical industries charge our employers. They in turn ask us working stiffs to pony up some more. So, yeah, benefits cost a lot, even the crappy kind you get in the private sector. It seems unbelievable. It also seems unbelievable that I work three weeks a year just to pay my property taxes. But Dems is da breaks. - Doc

I'd make a wisenheimer comment or post a picture... but... ours isn't red... and it never sees fire - at least in our fire district.

I think NIMS is latest set of burning hoops, smoke and mirrors compliments of the federal government. Do we need a standardized incident command and management system... yes. But NIMS is just poorly executed and inadequately planned. I'm heavily involved in the municipal disaster planning and management side of things and it's much worse than the side firefighters, police and EMS people see. I doubt any municipality has a workable disaster plan that actually fits the NIMS requirements. I get the feeling from reading the updates and press releases that they're making it up as they go (except for the parts they steal from the wildfire coordinating group). And I fear that the whole program will get dropped as soon as a new moron moves into the white house, cleans house and appoints his own favorite patsies to FEMA and NFA.

Yes... Read all about it! See it too.... Ladder Raise It's incredible to watch. However, I cannot fathom how taxpayers should be supporting this. - Doc.

I think the proposed LNG facility is a good thing. LI has serious energy needs and this beats putting nukes in Smithtown. I also agree more needs to be done to protect this facility and the surrounding vicinity. My issue is how Shell and Trans-Canada is funding it. Last I heard, industrial fire brigades still exist, though they certainly aren't profit centers. They are, I guess, a throw-back to a time when our corporate neighbors weren't so averse to spending money to protect their neighbors and themselves from their own toys. I think when a business establishes a facility with unique risks and hazards far beyond what the local community can handle, they should take responsibility for the safety of their employees and the public by providing protection AT THEIR COST. If I were to somehow get permission to build a nuclear power generating unit in my backyard, I doubt I'd be able to go before the local fire district board and say, "Ok, I'm building this little thing in my backyard that'll make me rich. It could theoretically kill everybody here and everybody in five miles of my tool shed... and I expect you and everybody else to protect me and it... here's $500.00 to buy sunglasses... don't say I didn't help out... thanks. Don't raise my taxes now." I'm sure Shell / Trans-Canada is doing it's part, but you know it's not going to be much more than a token gesture. My question for everybody to consider is this: When does an individual (and a corporation is in effect a legal individual) have the responsibility to assume the safety costs of his or her business and when does the community have to bear the cost? Where's the breaking point? How far and beyond the norm does a community have to go to accomodate what somebody decides to do on their private property? Also, on a lighter side... Do you think they'll be able to get restored Mack CF cabs on all the boats they'll need? - Doc

The above are good ones. Especially the cool head. I also carry... Fence pliers - can be a hammer, wire cutter, pliers, pick, gas shut-off or window punch. An old flat-head screwdriver- and a piece of rubber tube stuck on the end to prevent stabbing myself with it Leather work gloves - for extrication. Ear plugs (for dealing with the chief).

LOL, what's more probable... another 9/11 attack in NYC or another hurricane hitting NO? I don't know either, but I'm sure Nagin will turn all compliments and smiles if he ends up mayor of Atlantis again.

If you played it backwards it would be more exciting!

I can't help it if certain big departments have bad taste and small budgets! LOL (Joke). Seriously though: E-one pumpers are fine no-frills workhorses. They offer plenty of durability and features for a reasonable price. Unfortunately it seems they are plagued with a lot of old horror stories. The big one was the galvanic corrosion thing. It took E-one a few years of spontaneously disassembling trucks to figure out that attaching uncoated aluminum panels with steel screws and bolts is a BAD IDEA. But they've learned. Generally it seems to take them a little while to learn new things. For example, when we were spec'ing out our tower ladder we looked at E-one's midmount. It was obvious that they had just entered the mid-mount market. A lot of poor welding and sloppy extrusions on the boom. It looked like their shop people figured it out as they went along. Seriously it looked like something the kids in shop class cooked up. That and there were too many exposed wiring harnasses at crucial points where they could get snagged or pulled. It was promising, but, again, they needed to iron out a lot of half-baked fabrication problems before we bought one. I also have a grudge against E-one for killing the BEST RESCUE BODY MANUFACTURER EVER - Saulsbury. Any fire truck I've worked around has had problems. As long as the manufacturer can remedy the situation in reasonable time and without risking lives, I think any truck will serve well.