Doc

Ok, sorry for that cynical rant. I wasn't completely serious about any of what I was saying, I was just painting the darker, sicker end of the rainbow and using a VERY heavy hand. It's like Jonathan Swift promoting the concept of eating the poor as a solution to poverty in early industrial Ireland (A Modest Proposal). Like I said in a post before; There have to be better, more cost effective ways of delivering service and consolidation is probably the way to go with it - and it IS the future of the fire service as we continue the transition from the narrow path of suppression to a broader and busier world of general emergency response. However, going into it blindly with the expectation that those benevolent elected caretakers, who we call our leaders, have only the people and the fire service in mind had best take off the rose colored glasses. We must pay VERY CLOSE attention to who in Albany is promoting what and why. Albany is cash strapped due to the craptacular antics of Wall Street and the credit / mortgage crisis which they implicitly allowed to happen. The state is desperate to balance it's own books to the tune of $40billion dollars in FY 2009. Looking at the amount of money being collected as tax revenue, it is quite obvious to certain persons in the Assembly and Senate Finace Committees and the Comptroller's office how much money is moving into local government. They are more than happy with raiding the local coffers if it delivers on campaign promises of reducing taxes, which I am in favor of, however I'm concerned that they are going to play the game of two steps forward and one step back - to reduce our property taxes only to increase our income taxes to redirect the funds to the state level. So, looking at the financial performance of our state legislators, one has to wonder how it will pan out. The changes that need to be made in our laws and state contitution to inact these recommendations have plenty of room for loopholes. Once we, the fire service - meaning EVERYBODY who does this professionally and with passion - relenquish control of our organizations and culture to the larger political machine, be prepared to be surprised and potentially disappointed. Be prepared to see that same mentality that inflitrates so many government agencies try to seep in. Much of what makes this career rewarding is that you are giving back to your local community. When the decisions stop being made with the local community in mind - much like state school mandates - it stops feeling like good work and more like bureaucracy. Whatever solution is found, it has to come from within the fire service and not from the career politicians and lawyers who would be perfectly happy telling us what kind of "oxygen bottle" to put on our backs and what kind of "fire truck" to pull the hose off of. We should grow to a regionalized service model... not be changed into it by others.

Just a little.

Ok. Since x68eng119 opened the conversation up to some pie-in-the-sky, lets consider the other side of that coin. How it will work when politicians get involved... I'm not picking on any specific departments, but since the T.o.Cordtland and V.o. Croton were mentioned... The Cordtland / Croton Regional Fire Authority is formed. The Fire Advisory Board, appointed at the Town and Village Board's Pleasure consists of a couple former volunteer officers and a bunch of local business owners and lawyers who "know how to run businesses". In order to properly run a large Regional Fire Authority, the candidate search for Chief is conducted nationwide. Preference is given to local applicants, however a Mr. Whatsizface, a deputy chief with 18 years experience from the Middlanowhere, Georgia County Fire Department is hired at a salary commensurate to his experience and comparable to the greatest regional departments in the nation. He begins building his office staff by hiring friends from back home. His first project - to pick two fire houses. After months of protests from the local communities, lawsuits by politicians and former fire district officers, and a News 4 exposee with "baby mommas" (who don't even live in the area) crying about their babies burning to death "cuz' dey closed da fiahhouse", two stations are chosen! After a two million dollar blue ribbon study involving a few strategically appointed (but poorly qualified) committee members the stations chosen are Montrose and Verplanck because they "offer a key blend of strategic resource features of great community value"(?) - according to the report which is completed two years after the fact. Since nobody buys old fire houses, especially ones filled with asbestos and lead, the new department must maintain and heat the old ones until, ultimately, all except Buchanan's old station are given away to not-for-profits. Buchanan's old staton becomes the new department headquarters facility after a multi-million dollar bonded rennovation where the bays have been sealed up and turned into offices for the purchasing and payroll departments for the Cordtland / Croton Region Fire Authority which now employs 35 non-uniform personnel who are paid in accordance with other regional fire authorities throughout the nation and neccessary to operate an "agency of this size". A completely different set of paid firefighters is hired from civil service, many of whom bear an uncanny likeness in face and name to certain town and county officials. The VA at Montrose, seeing that the community how has 24 hour career fire protection, closes the VA fire department, relocating a couple of their firefighters to Castle Point, but offering the others jobs in the maintenance department. The Authority hits financial trouble after the bunchanan firehouse renovation goes over budget. The money that was earmarked to be allocated to build a facility to maintain the Authority's apparatus is diverted to the bunchanan renovation. The apparatus facility is finally built using apparatus maintenace funds and the money saved by foregoing hiring actual mechanics to staff it. instead, all the old apparatus from the now defunct departments is stored in the building. A late night water line break (due to not heating the building) destroys many of the old rigs before they can be auctioned off. They are written off as surplus and given to a scrap dealer. The career staffing consists of 2 engines manned by four, a ladder truck manned by three who also cross-staff an ambulance. The Authority contracts with some Ambulance service out of CT since so-and-so who is whats-his-name's favorite cousin is a part owner of the company and had a hook on the Town Board and help fund somebody's re-election campaign. The contract allows the ambulance provider to bill the patients AND collect a big check from the Authority every year. The Cordtland and Croton Regional Fire Authority, now known by it's jazzy new name "Cord/ton FirRescue.com - Your Hometown Community Service" (generated by a $800,000 proposal from a Madison Ave. PR firm, in conjunction with the Fire Authority's own 8 employee Media and Information Department) employs 65 office staff and 32 firefighters. Apparatus purchases are deferred until further notice. The S.S. Don't Forget to Change Your Batteries, a 20,000 gpm fireboat is commissioned by the Authority after a vague assessment from the State DHS that the Authority needs a boat of some sort to protect "critical infrastructure". The boat quickly balloons to 95 feet long with the argument that a Regional Fire Authority has a mandate to provide world quality service to its community. It will feature two 900 sq.ft. staterooms and a banquet dining deck for use by Authority Board Members for entertaining benefactors of the Fire Prevention Program. Firefighters are offered the opportunity to work as kitchen help and waiters when off shift. When the Authority gets a federal grant, instead of bolstering the firefighting staffing level, they use it to build a new "9/11 Memorial Administration Facility" after it is determined that the renovated buchanan firehouse is not adequate for the authority's needs. The buchanan fire house is given to a meals-on-wheels program for the increasing ranks of poor people in the Authority's coverage area.

I'd like to know how Dutchess County fire service consolidation will reduce my fire taxes. Right now the tax rate for Rombout FD is $0.43/M - looking at my tax bill... I payed $85.00 out of my $3200.00 property tax for fire protection. It's a lot like worrying about the splinter in my finger when I have a telephone pole sticking through my torso. Even if my fire protection was completely free I would see virtualy no difference.

I think there's a lot of change in the status quo going on here. This could either be the start of a more efficient, better delivery of servies to a larger community or an opportunity to create a new class of massive, faceless agency with less accountability to the taxpayers on local issues. In my own personal dealings with local government I've yet to find resolution through ANY county level agency.

I'm predicting $5.00 by this Christmas. But don't worry about the gas prices. Wait until the rest of the commodities futures markets antics hit the grocery stores. I'm estimating $8.00/gallon for milk.

VERY NICE! I think the reorganization of the forums has been done well. I also agree that the photo section SHOULD NOT be separated by county. It's nice having one place to go to see them AND I think it's good to get people looking at what's going on outside of their area.

WOW. That a highly trained, motivated officer -one of the state's best - can be injured while conducting one of the most hazardous operations an officer would ever face is effectively told by the Governor (at his pleasure), "Oh, thanks yadda yadda service to the state blah blah honor and something... now just go away and work the door at Wal-mart or something." One would assume that ANY person that is expected to face death or grevious injury for "the state" or "the people" and IS injured in the discharge of those duties, with no expectation of being able to return to their career or a similar one, would have support and the opportunity to continue to serve if able in some other capacity. But hey, he works for the governor... so just keep speeding him through traffic above the speed limit, keep the trips to meet hookers hush-hush, and don't look to close at the money changing hands... oh, and prepare to DIE for him... Nice. I think I'll stick to a career of handling turd water and toxic waste. At least it won't disresepect me like a governor does.

Is the city burning yet?

So there is a Texas state law that says hydrants that flow less than 250gpm must be painted black - and this utility company can't garantee at least 250 gpm from ANY of their hydrants, so they're painting them ALL black? What's the problem? That the hydrants are utterly worthless? Or that the fire department seems to think that they can still rely on any of these worthless hydrants when the folks at the other side of the water main are telling them they are dangerously inadequate? Either way, the solution seems simple to me... Time for the department to invest in tankers and write these worthless hydrants out of their SOPs.

I seriously think NYS should just start over with the whole colored lights issue. There is enough information out there that shows which lights are best for which applications. That isn't neccessarily reflected in the V&T laws. The law as it is written now and how it may or may not be revised only muddies the water and puts agencies and individuals in positions where the policy that would have the most benefit to their safety and health puts them at odds with the law. It is a typical Albany produced mess. I understand that there are plenty of people who have bugs up their hindquarters over vollies and their bluelights. I also understand that there is an equal number of wackers racing around with bluelights justifying that first bunch's assertions. I can also tell you that when we get a call, there might be two or three emergency vehicles on the road, but a half-dozen or more POV's driving around out there too. In my department, we have seen more accidents involving those few fire apparatus with lights and sirens than we have seen accidents involving member POVs with bluelights. How many departments REQUIRE TRAINING before issuing bluelight cards? If your department is handing them out at the new guy's first company meeting along with his copy of the SOPs, you're already lost. That card should be given out only after the member has been trained on what he/she can and cannot do with it and some measure of competence assessment obtained. Planned light installations or purchases should be reviewed by a chief officer. Blue light policies need to be in writing and those policies need to be trained with. Violation of that policy should be treated as though the problem involved the operation of a department vehicle, especially if your department allows to-the-scene response in POVs. When young members get the bluelight fever, they need to taken to task for it immediately. It has to be merciless and discipline has to be delivered evenly. This is the biggest inadequacy I see with departments that allow to-the-scene response in POVs. I have no problem with to-the-scene response and do so often, BUT if we expect our members to arrive safely yet quickly to the scene in their own vehicles they need to understand the rules of the road and have training. Handing them a little blue card and saying, "Don't go killin' yerself now..." is insane. It's been my finding that the problem isn't the light on the roof, but the moron behind the wheel. Morons can only be cured or identified and taken out of the equation by training and good policies that are enforced. If an idiot like me can use his bluelight responsibly, than anybody can.

Awe.... It's got FLOPPY EARS! Now it just needs some vinyl sad puppydog eyes on the windshield.

VERY nice rig! Looks like it'll actually be able to run the median and shoulders of I-84 and the TSP!

I'm one of the lucky ones. I work for a private employer who allows me and the other voluteer FF's and EMT's to go to calls. Right now 1/5th of our people are volunteer emergency workers of some sort, none in the same agency, which is strange since the business has no connection to emergency services work. The policy is that you have to get your supervisor's permission, be able to furnish written proof of why you were out if so requested and we aren't paid for the time out. We have to use personal time or sick time or simply not get paid for the time we are out. For Salaried Employees, the time can also be deducted from your flextime accrual even if it puts you in an hours deficit. The policy is, no matter what, your work gets out on time and up to Quality Control's standards. If that means working extra hours or weekends to catch up, so be it. You won't get OT or flex time for it until you're over 40 hours for the week and your supervisor has the option of not letting you work the extra hours. If your productivity suffers, this benefit will be terminated for you. Some of our positions simply don't allow for people to leave due to not having a back-up for a critical task and if you have an appointment or meeting with a client you can't cancel it to go to a call. Most of us don't interact with clients directly, so keeping regular hours isn't essential. But the reality is that we all understand that running off to a call is putting other people we work with in a world of hurt in our absence. Since I'm always swamped and have no backup for my position, I only respond if its a confirmed working fire or an Article 2b declared disaster and then I pay for it for few days after.

Yeah, that is a miconception I've heard people bat around like it will save their jobs. USERRA has nothing to do with emergency services workers. HR 1643 and S. 2240 aim to rectify the situation, however I doubt either will get out of committee in one piece. It is surprising to see that our leaders might have finally realized that most of the response personnel in most of the nation are volunteers and that NIMS won't work if nobody can show up to fill crucial postions - like the Food Unit Leader. I don't know how ANY operation can function without a fully staffed Food Unit. Seriously, though, those people who are lucky enough to work in the same town they live in (and volunteer in) really need to set out the ground rules for responding to calls with their employer before the tones drop. The employer has every right to protect their interests and if that means not allowing responses, oh well - find a different job or resign yourself to evenings and weekend calls.

So far as I know there is NOTHING on the legal books yet. H.R. 1643 (S. 2240 is the identical Bill working its way through the senate)was introducted in the U.S. House of Representatives on March 22, 2007 and forwarded to the House Subcommittee on Health, Employment and Labor. It would make it illegal for an employer to fire, demote or in any way penalize volunteer emergency workers for absence up to 14 days to respond to emergencies and disasters. However, the employer is NOT obligated to pay you and you must provide documented proof of your response AND notify your employer in a timely manner. So, for now, it is ENTIRELY at your employers discretion and whim.

I've reviewed the entire 170 page Revised Environmental Assessment Forms for the project and it's going to be monumental. Any agencies that would respond to emergency incidents in the operating theater should have copies and understand what is expected of them. It's some VERY interesting reading. The findings with the sub were a bit more distressing than they first led on. Yes, they had known about a significant leak in Orange County (among others) which seems to have spawned a marsh. Ironically they have to treat that wetland just like a natural one in terms of the DEC's requirements for wetlands conservation. Even considering the leaks that are known or suspected, the sub took two more hours to get through than they had predicted. Turns out it had slammed into something, which broke off the "feelers" that kept it centered in the tunnel. It spent the rest of the trip dragging against the wall. Best they can tell from the time of impact is that there is a "misallignment" of the tunnel where it passes - get a load of this - UNDER ROUTE 9 in Fishkill. They've since started preparing another draft EAF which I haven't seen yet. Here's a NY Times article about the sub project NY TIMES

I just saw the new NFPA regs that are going into effect for 2009! I think I've had it. I was initially going to post this in one of the serious firefighting forums, but I can't bring myself to take this seriously. Sorry. NFPA should REALLY get into the business of regulating childrens playground toys. I know, I know; NFPA had done a tremendous amount of good making this job safer and improving firefighter safety by establishing recognized standards. But just like Nichola Tesla oversteeped his genius by getting into mind reading and weather control machines, I think the NFPA's past success has gone to it's head and is just making new regulations to sell more books. "The following is in the new revision of NFPA 1901, effective for apparatus contracted on and after January 1, 2009. 14.1.8.4* The following statement shall be included in the operators manual: Fire helmets shall not be worn by persons riding in enclosed driving and crew areas. Fire helmets are not designed for crash protection and they will interfere with the protection provided by head rests The use of seat belts is essential to protecting fire fighters during driving. 14.1.8.4.1 A location for helmet storage shall be provided. 14.1.8.4.2 If helmets are to be stored in the driving or crew compartment, the helmets shall be secured in compliance to section 14.1.11.2. (This relates to the gforce restraints.) 14.1.8.4.3 A label stating DO NOT WEAR HELMET WHILE SEATED shall be visible from each seating position. A.14.1.8.4 The minimum seat head height values in this standard assume that the occupants are not wearing helmets. The use of helmets puts the occupant at greater risk of neck or back injury during a rollover or during a severe road event." SO MY QUESTION: Anybody have ideas and recommendations for proactively fullfilling the NFPA requirement that structural helmets not be worn while riding in apparatus? I'm thinking the only safe place to put them in older apparatus would be in a compartment. Or maybe, just to be extra safe, we should assure that they are transported in a separate vehicle, like a cargo van or armored car - NO - a fortified, multi-million dollar Helmet Vehicle!!! Just to be sure... That is the only way we can protect ourselves from tyranny of the deadly firefighting helmet. I'm still waiting for the NFPA regulation that requires spotters and the buddy system for using the toilet.

Good. I'm glad to hear that sanity IS ruling the day and people understand the REAL practical nature of this "exciting new standard" for common sense. However, I still do wonder how those helmets sitting on the doghouse / in the lap are secured for an impact. I know I see it all the time. Is EVERY crew member stashing a helmet in a compartment? Seems most just jump on the rig with helmet in hand and stash them on the doghouse, dashboard, wedge them behind the seat, between the knees, etc... where it ISN'T secure by NFPA's measure. So, what IS the prevailing policy? What is everyone using to secure their helmets? I was being a bit facetious in my initial post because: COME ON!? A. People need to be TOLD not to bring projectiles into the cab of an apparatus after all the hubub about straps on mounted SCBA and tools? B. Do we need warning labels on EVERYTHING for EVERY eventuality? or are people REALLY that thoughtless? I could go either way on this. C. What tool mount manufacturer who's on the NFPA committee will offer the first $99.00 NFPA compliant helmet bracket? D. Has EVERYBODY really thought about this? It does seem like a joke at face value but this is actually a valid issue when you think about it. The other thing people seem to miss are those portable radios in drop chargers - without retention straps. Yeah, the radios are smaller, but that doesn't mean I want one launched in my face if we stop short or roll. It's food for thought.

Oh, the IIa's were great. "Gotta turn on the positive pressure". I'd come out to switch out a bottle and hear somebody's pack blowing... "Oh, yeah!" THEN it would get turned on! And training with the old masks (The days when the only air we had was delivered by Nichols), stuffing the hose down your coat only to have it fall out and spend a few breaths vacuuming the firehouse basement floor. Good times. Luckily we had the aluminum cylinders on MOST of them. There were a few steel ones around. I always got one of those.

It wasn't the Rambling Brook Inn, was it? AKA RBI? Personally, I havn't gone that far out of town since DCWIII or V. The Bull Pen is all the local flavor I can stomach. Well miss Slim at the card table, though. I think there's only six of us going up this year. We have a batch of 10 probies who wanted to go, but they all need FF1 before we let them see the light of day. Like usual, the 5th floor is ours.

This is the only controlling language I can find in New York State law is Article 176-a in Town Laws. "§ 176-a. Duties of chief and assistant chiefs of fire department of fire district. 1. The chief shall, under the direction of the board of fire commissioners, have exclusive control of the members of the fire department of the fire district at all fires, inspections, reviews and other occasions when the fire department is on duty or parade; he shall also have supervision of the engines, fire trucks, pumpers, hose wagons and other apparatus and of the equipment and other property used for the prevention or extinguishment of fire and of all officers and employees of the fire department. He shall see that the rules and regulations of the board of fire commissioners are observed and that the orders of the board of fire commissioners are duly executed. ..." For village fire departments there is also Article 10-1018 which pretty much says the same thing. From Village Laws "§ 10-1018 Duties of chief and assistants. The chief shall be president of the council and of the meetings of the fire department. He shall, under the direction of a separate board of fire commissioners, if any, have exclusive control of the members at all fires, inspections and reviews, the supervision of the engines, hose and other apparatus owned by the village for the prevention or extinguishment of fires, of all property owned by the fire department, and of all officers and employees thereof elected or employed by the council or by a separate board of fire commissioners, if any. "

Watching that was painful. Not so much the destruction of the equipment...

And most stopped doing this why? (I know why. I also know the REAL reason why.) It's an interesting idea. Here's a public safety department in Wisconsin. They've been a combined Fire/Police/EMS agency for 25 years.

I haven't heard about what you're talking about here but I know that in Broome County, NY, a few departments have done something similar. The way it works is this: on a rotational basis each of the participating fire districts offers a rig for staffing by a duty crew made up of members from the participating fire districts. These firefighters respond with that engine to any call in the participating fire districts. Right now there are two such engines (designated Engine 98 and 99). By rotating the location and engine used, it evenly distributes the risks to the fire districts, and pools the manpower of a few departments. Here's a web page that describes the program. http://www.unioncenterfire.com/engine_98.htm I think this is an excellent interim measure to the daytime call issue. I'm not sure how well it works, but it is one interesting idea.