helicopper

Thank you for bringing this thread back on topic. The case to which you refer in Morris County, NJ has been discussed here exhaustively (links below). As for closing the road, I think we all agree that when necessary it is appropriate - as in any of the significant investigatory examples provided above - but to close the road "because we can" or to close lanes just because we're on the highway can in many cases be excessive. I don't think that there is a simple rule that can be followed, we have to take the totality of the circumstances and make an informed decision for each accident, location, weather conditions, highway access, etc and communicate with each other so we know what's going on with all the agencies having jurisdiction on scene. http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=14901&hl= http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=14949&hl= http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=15870&hl= http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=16185&hl=

I have to agree with bnechis and alsff on this. As much as I'm an advocate for advanced training and equipment for the PD, the use of SCBA in a firefighting situation is for the fire service. Not every PO needs to be trained in working at a contaminated crime scene or other unusual incident requiring advanced respiratory protection - that's for specialized units like SWAT, Bomb Squad, Crime Scene Units, etc. It wouldn't be appropriate to provide just an SCBA anyway. As Barry pointed out, each PO would have to be outfitted with a full ensemble from boots to helmets. Once all that stuff is on, he (or she) effectively stops being a police officer because they can't wear their gun belt and carry all their other required equipment over the PPE and wearing it under the PPE is wrong on many levels. Not to mention the fiscal impact of outfitting every cop in Westchester with firefighting gear - a conservative estimate is about 2.5 million dollars. What's more important? Cops keeping their jobs or getting PPE for a new, non-law enforcement job? If you're being shot at, how long are you going to wait for police before charging the suspect yourself, tackling him, wrestling the gun away and holding him while safeguarding the weapon so nobody else can pick it up? Obviously, it's not appropriate for you to take that kind of action so why is appropriate for me to run into a burning building filled with unknown hazards without the right training or equipment? The military example is a poor comparison for a couple of reasons. The military is a different animal; they train exhaustively so they're not providing equipment to someone without training. And perhaps most important, on a ship a fire can kill everyone aboard. While a structure fire is dangerous to everyone in the building (and perhaps in close proximity outside) it's not going to kill the guy across the street or down the block. Before someone starts talking about the major conflagrations of our time, people can run away from a city fire - they can't run away from a ship fire! Finally, the cop shouldn't just be standing around. He or she can do a multitude of other things: secure the perimeter to prevent anyone else from going into the structure, using sirens/PA or just a big mouth to warn of the hazard to get people moving, making sure the FD can access the scene, establishing traffic control points, diverting buses or other traffic, looking for other hazards, etc. etc. etc. (I'm sure we can all add to this list). I appreciate your sentiment, and agree that something should be done, but don't believe the best action is providing cops with SCBA. Perhaps we should look at ways of reducing the response times of fire departments or improving code enforcement to make sure that alarms and detectors are working.

Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -P.J. O'Rourke, Civil Libertarian

As long as the subject has come up, what does everyone think about establishing maximum age limits for the PD and FD to protect us from further attacks like the one Bloomberg is proposing? I mean should the average 62 year old be chasing a 17 perp or hauling hose up four flights of stairs?

A whole lot of troopers in that! But don't forget Chief Wild Eagle!

Many departments already have contractual "give back" days. This is not an entirely new concept though the threat of layoffs is an egregious form of political manipulation in order to get unions to concede these points. I fully understand the need for budget cuts. I just find it hard to believe that nobody in City Hall is getting a pink slip while the two most essential services are being carved up. As for the FF working without pay, he should be fully covered by all benefits during that contractual "give back" day. Can anyone from Yonkers confirm that?

My information may be a little bit off so if anyone has credible sources on the subject, please jump in here! I was under the impression that the reason police and fire had a 20 year retirement was because of the health impact all the shift work and stress had on you. I also thought that DOC and Sanitation had 25/55 retirements but I guess the "parity" in NYC brought them all to 20 years - I won't even touch that one. If they now increase the retirement age and number of years required to be eligible I hope they're prepared for many more cardiac related disabilities and other now line of duty retirements because they're forcing people to stay longer. Now, given the recruitment problems that the NYPD already faces, how much worse is it going to get if you can get hired at 22 but can't collect your pension for 33 years?

As has been said many times in this thread already, it is not always the trooper (or PO) who is the one with the attitude/ego/selective hearing loss/etc. I have heard of and witnessed cases where other emergency services acted just as inappropriately. If we want to make this thread a "once upon a time..." thread with stories about bad experiences with law enforcement brace yourselves for when the stories about your own pop up. Glass houses, my friends, glass houses! Nobody is perfect and no agency is perfect either.

If a chief officer, in this day and age, is willing to take on that responsibility and liability and tell you you're not injured enough to warrant documentation first off he/she is crazy. Second, as bnechis and Jack said, document it yourself, followup with your own medical provider if necessary and in addition to mailing yourself the information (a great idea by the way), mail the same correspondence to your chief registered/return receipt and hold on to ALL of it! You never know when or how you're going to need that information. Case in point, a member of my department contracted Hepatitis C during a prisoner transport many years before becoming symptomatic. Had there not be documentation at the time, he never would have been able to prove that it was job related.

Don't most agencies have their paramedics carry the narcotics on their person or am I just dating myself again? Most medics I know don't hang out where it's 92 or hotter for very long so the meds ought to be more temperate.

I'm not an armorer but I'm pretty sure it isn't the firing pin that gets filed down and to prevent the would be do-it-yourselfer from trying it at home I'll refrain from speculating on the appropriate part.

Yeah, the cross hairs are cool - if only we had the appropriate armament to accompany them!!!

A-1 sold their license to someone... I'm trying to remember to whom. It may have been to the original Hudson Valley Ambulance but I'm not sure.

Wasn't AA or Affiliated based up here in those days - before Affilliated merged with NY Ambulance and moved down to Yonkers?

True but not the helicopter to carry it! There are also big differences between the handheld systems and aircraft or marine based systems. I'll see about an IR screenshot. We go where the work is!

And the fundamental problems of EMS are summed up by one who has not even become an EMS provider yet!

Empress or TransCare = Coke or Pepsi Either has it's pros and cons, each has people that will swear by them and each has disgruntled current and former employees. Interview at both of them and make your own decision based on what will be best for you. Good luck!

For just 3.5 million dollars you too can have one!

Another perspective... All these images are the property of the Westchester County Department of Public Safety and may not be copied, reproduced, or published for any purpose without their written consent.

Well said!

'If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed.' - Mark Twain

You all do realize that we're on the same team, don't you? Instead of looking at this strictly from your perspective try to break the tunnel vision. You're all looking at this from the point of view that the fire chief is the IC. Well, the police have responsibility at the scene, are an agency having jurisdiction, and are just as much the IC as the fire chief. In fact, on the Thruway, aren't you essentially dealing with private property? The Thruway has more rules than other state highways and is "owned and operated" by the New York State Thruway Authority. Your closing the road also makes it difficult if not impossible for other emergency vehicles, tow trucks, plows, etc. to get there and help make the whole problem go away. As for the flares nd haz-mat anecdote, that is a funny one but how many times are we dealing with an overturned tanker leaking flammable liquids? That's the exception rather than the rule. In fact, injury accidents occur far less frequently than property damage ones and the FD doesn't respond to those at all. Yet the PD and tow trucks and everyone else manage to resolve those without road closures and all this bickering. Perhaps unified command would be a better option than these petty pissing matches. Then the two agencies having jurisdiction can determine the best course of action together. Maybe negotiating the closure of the road for 10-15 minutes to prevent a closure of 4-6 hours later when the simple PIAA becomes an AI job. If the trooper was on scene before the FD, isn't HE the IC unless/until a transfer of command occurs? Closing any portion of the Thruway has far reaching ramifications. The Thruway is a major component of interstate commerce and the trucks that use it will be pushed off onto local roads - many not suited to trucks of that size/weight. Remember the bridge closures due to wind and overturned trucks last year? Traffic was a nightmare. If traffic is going too fast through your scene, slow it down. Stop it until it backs up enough to prevent speeding and then reopen it. There's seldom a need to close a major highway from the time you arrive until the time you depart. We can all point to that one case out of a thousand that was a problem but instead of all the negatives, why don't we talk about some of the positives.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,479045,00.html Hard to believe that in this day and age piracy is still alive and well.

And a cruise ship captain ran off a group of pirates by trying to ram their boats when they came after his full-size cruise ship.

Enough is enough! How many more condolence threads are we going to have to sign? How many more threads about horrible apparatus or training accidents are we going to have to read? When will we stop posting "what was he thinking" videos? Only we can solve this problem! In 2005, the helicopter industry got together and said just that, "enough is enough"! They formed an alliance to reduce helicopter accidents by 80% during the next 10 years. Why? Because there were entirely too many preventable accidents. You know what, there are still accidents but they’re finally on the decline and everyone in the industry is more aware of the issue. Today in the emergency services there are entirely too many preventable accidents in apparatus and on the scene. Are there accidents that can not be prevented? Sure, but they are few and far between. If we don't change our culture and hold ourselves and our peers accountable, then this problem will never go away. What does this mean? We have to be proactive and either develop policies and procedures to limit behavior that is conducive to these accidents or we have to start enforcing the existing policies that are being ignored. I’m sure that there are rules requiring personnel to wear appropriate PPE on a scene. I’m sure that there are rules governing the operation of emergency vehicles. I’m sure that there are guidelines or rules dictating what is safe and effective reality based training and what is not. Despite this we all see the videos of someone doing something boneheaded! Instead of videotaping an emergency vehicle blasting through a red traffic light, perhaps the buff should put down the camera and tell the driver to “SLOW DOWN”! Officers or supervisors have to stop worrying about popularity and do the job they’re entrusted with. If someone is doing something that is potentially harmful, stop them! If you get complaints about someone’s driving, fix it! Provide them with remedial training, counsel them, or if all else fails prevent them from driving anymore! We can no longer afford to condone behavior that exposes all of us to the risk of unnecessary injury. The video of a firefighter walking into a burning structure only to come out a few minutes later essentially on fire is mind boggling! Where was the chief? If that was the chief, where was the safety or training officer? If the chief is the one ignoring safety guidelines and recommendations for live fire training, should he be the chief? It is time for the majority who do it safely and properly to start holding the minority who skirt the line or outright do it wrong accountable. If you’re an instructor (in any field) and another instructor is doing it wrong or unsafely, it is time for an instructor conference to fix the problem. We can’t just ignore it say that’s the way so-and-so does it. We can also start holding the training bar higher! If 70% is passing, why do we strive for just 70%? Why don’t we strive for 100% and accept 70% when someone has an off day? Do we really think doing it wrong 30% of the time is acceptable? When was the last time you honestly asked yourself if you’re fit (physically and mentally) to do the job that you’re being called for? When was the last time you qualified on your firearm, went through a mask confidence course, performed a difficult intubation, etc.? Could you train more? Could you work out for an hour to make sure you’re physically able to perform the task? If our new president’s (like him or not) buzzword is "change" and his slogan is "change can happen", we can embrace the concept and take advantage of the opportunity to start changing so the numbers of accidents, injuries, and fatalities is lower in 2009. It has to start somewhere so why not here?