helicopper

You hit the nail on the head! Absolutely right!

I think these are two different questions. What, if anything, could have been done to prevent the recent shootings of police officers? and What is the benefit of an on-duty ESU type tactical entity versus the on-call type team? First, I'm not sure anything could have been done to prevent these shootings (Oakland and Pittsburgh). In both cases they were essentially assassinated in an ambush by a well-armed and focused perpetrator. It is very hard to defend against these types of incidents in our litigious society - imagine if everyone stopped for a traffic offense was ordered out of their vehicle at gunpoint by police officers concealed behind their vehicle? Perhaps more realistic and more frequent training to help combat complacency and maintain proficiency would be a positive outcome of these tragedies but it may not prevent the next one. As for 24/7 ESU/SWAT - there is obviously a benefit to the reduced response time of tactical assets (as with any other specialty resource - didn't we just have quite a lively debate about the response times of firematic specialty teams? - but the two tactical operators can not function as a complete SWAT team by themselves. So, unless we're going to staff the same way NYC does (25 or so fully equipped REP's and Trucks plus specialty units), we're going to have delays. On the subject of dispatchers and call-takers, they could definitely benefit from more realistic and more frequent training. I know alot of PD's provide no in-service training to their communications people. Once they're trained they're supposed to know everything forever! But as we've discussed before, the information going out is only as good as the information coming in so if they suspect is calling police to stage his own ambush and suicide by police, nothing will protect the responding officers. And the Oakland cops were gunned down on a car stop so there was no dispatch involvement prior to the murders. Sadly law enforcement remains an incredibly dangerous profession that is used as a pawn in political and budgetary games.

Clearly you have no strong opinion on this subject, huh? I'd offer this as a counter-argument... In many parts of the state, troopers also serve as "resident troopers" and get called from their homes to respond in their area and/or back-up other units. They turn out from their homes, in or near their prescribed patrol area, reducing "commuiting" mileage on both their personal vehicle and the State vehicle (there's an environmental benefit there too but that's for someone else to say). Rather than spending an hour of their duty day driving from the barracks to their post and back at the end, they have negotiated the right to drive a State owned vehicle on off-duty time. There are rules governing this and they have to abide by them or face disciplinary action. Another philosophy about take-home cars is that the officers operating them are always on duty and when properly equpiped in an official vehicle they are more apt to take action when technically not on the clock. Yet another point in favor of them is that cars last significantly longer when they're assigned to a single person and that person is resposible/accountable for its condition and upkeep. Replace 200 cars a year for six years and you've replaced the whole fleet. Having "pool cars" runs up the miles on them and burns them out much faster resulting in having to buy 400-600 cars per year instead. That's a fleet management nightmare and big bucks! As for highway safety overtime, that too was negotiated over the years and is a state mandate at all highway work zones. It isn't to bloat pensions, it's to make us safer and I for one prefer seeing a trooper in a work zone than not. NY is only just starting to follow CT's lead and it's long overdue. Work zones are inherently dangerous and the presence of a police officer may cause one idiot driver to actually slow down a little! Many departments around the Country use take-home vehicles for their members and have justified to their administrators and elected officials why/how they will benefit from it. You're not a believer - I get it.

Interesting twist on the nightmare... Probably just terrorist rhetoric but it's disturbing that he's hearing about it so quickly in a cave in Pakistan and even more alarming that he's being given the media platform to say it! http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=102499

That's no lie. You can also add California, Texas, New York, and the Border Patrol to that list... Don't worry about it though - we're laying cops off to save money but the streets will be just as safe!

Please use this as the discussion thread about this tragedy. This is the link to the In Memorium thread... Pittsburgh, PA - 3 Police Officers Shot and Killed More news coverage of the story: http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/04/04/pittsb....officers.shot/ http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/articl...I6_7cAD97BMVP80 http://www.wtrf.com/story.cfm?func=viewsto...p;storyid=55973 http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/04/04/Pit...15941238857750/

They ought to put "!!YMMUD, REVO EVOM" on all emergency vehicles and make it the national standard!

According to common sense we all have responsibilities at a scene and have to collaborate or at the very least cooperate to get the job done. Clearly this was not the case in this situation. Not having any first-hand information and relying exclusively on the report of a "witness" in a "news"paper, I'm not going to wade into the whole argument of who's right or who's wrong. Suffice it to say that egos, attitudes, and/or a lack of communication played a role here and rather than get better, the situation got worse. BVFDCJ, unfortunately the situation is not as crystal clear as you'd like it to be. Yes, in a purely medical environment the highest trained EMS provider should be in charge - based on the article, that would be the paramedics who arrive and not the fire lieutenant so his role was not necessarily IC. Let's stir up the mud in the water now - if the person is under arrest, the police can not legally allow the person to leave their custody even for medical treatment. Usually, this is simply resolved by having PD transport to the hospital or by having PD accompany the prisoner in the ambulance. Again, this was not reported clearly so we don't even know if she was under arrest. Hey, Izzy, jumped to a conclusion here didn't you? We don't know what the exchange between the FD officer and PD officer was when out of earshot of the "witness" so who knows what really happened?

Agreed, great for Rockland. But the question remains - how is a million dollars going to be used to "promote volunteerism"? Advertising? Incentives? What? That's a lot of money and I'd really like to learn more about their plans. Perhaps it could be used as a model for other areas in the State.

Isn't this where building codes or other regulations could be used to protect us all? Can a municipality enact a local code prohibiting these types of construction if the glue melts and the thing collapses like a house of cards?

It's funny, the Yankees own website reported that he was retiring yesterday. Perhaps it was their own little April Fool because today it says he'll just miss the start of the season. I guess we'll have to wait and listen!

Looks like DHS is catching on that nobody's paying attention to NIMS and they're putting some real requirements out there now. "Federally administered" means we have to sit through their courses and we can't do our own. This ought to be fun.

excerpt from Police magazine, a Bobit Publication. http://www.policemag.com/Channels/SWAT/200...d-Massacre.aspx Rest in Peace, brothers!

That really is sad. He was a big part of that stadium!

I certainly hope everyone makes a full and speedy recovery but it highlights the fact that we ALL (whether paid or volunteer, fire, police or EMS) need to SLOW DOWN!!! SLOW DOWN! The lights and siren are not a force field! Who knows? The life you save may be your own!

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2009/03/24...ffs_of_890.html Looks like the worst is still yet to come!

If they make good on their "promise" to reduce the prison population by more than 10,000 inmates this year after the repeal of the Rockefeller drug laws and close various institutions or units within them, they may be able to reduce the numbers of CO's needed. Even if they have to pay some OT, it may be cheaper than the cost of full-time employees. At least that's the rhetoric I've always heard about using OT to keep costs down. It works until your numbers are so far down that you can't cover anything without OT. It's interesting that there are so many state employees - about 200,000. That means for every 85 people in the state there is a state employee. So how come it takes two hours to get one to pick up the phone and you have to stand in line for two hours at the DMV? It should be far more efficient than that! [/sarcasm] Does anyone know what other agencies (besides Corrections) will be facing the ax?

A few snapshots of the Garrison Fire today - about 24 hours into it. From my perspective it looked like they made a great stop and there were only a few hot spots remaining. The staging area is at the right edge of the photo. Equipment was staged a good distance away from the fireline. Gotta love ATV's and gators! There was a good sized area of scorched earth! More to follow!

stixx, Yonkers receives additional funds in part because of its population and because it is an MMRS city (one of only a handful in the State). New Rochelle has, over the years, received DHS funds for a variety of projects and will continue to (I imagine). There are 43 municipalities in Westchester County and this thread is not intended for 42 posts asserting that Town, Village, City X should have received a grant or deserves it more than any other jurisdiction. Westchester County received $2 million dollars and I'm sure some of that money will be headed for New Rochelle. No need to be angry!

If we hover over the firehouse and lower a line can we get our orders to go?

I won't take it personally - though I may drop a bucket or two on you anyway! They're not needed at a CO alarm. I wouldn't be the least bit upset if I didn't get sent to 'em!

Doesn't matter! Even with the flashing lights and ringing bells they drive right past them and hit the bridges anyway!

Where's everyone's sense of humor? Lighten up! It was a JOKE! The photo captured a time honored stereotype of public works emplyees and that was the whole point. This is another good example of why some agencies don't permit breaks to be taken on an incident site or in an operations area.

Why is the FD needed at a neck and back pain MVA?

High pressure or low pressure or both? Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread. It's informative and interesting and is a great example of how this forum can actually be a useful tool and not just another online chat.