helicopper

The below post was in another thread and I'm starting this one to ask some questions without taking the other thread off-topic. What is the purpose of these "racing teams"? How many FD's have them? Who funds them? Who insures them? What does this have to do with actual firefighting? I'm asking out of genuine curiosity so don't go crazy on me for bringing it up!

Thanks for all the information... Now maybe someone can answer the even bigger question: WHY?

The thread title has been changed and the original author has been asked to edit his post and follow his own advice by not bashing anyone. Let's keep this thread factual and professional. If you don't have firsthand information, please don't post as though you do. Let those involved post what is appropriate and accurate public information. Thanks, Chris192

I think I saw this question elsewhere, possibly in another thread, so forgive me if it is a duplicate. There are two on-duty medics 24/7 or there are only two medics in the entire service/"system"? If there are only two total, what happens if someone takes a day off or is sick? As for medical control and knowing your doc and having the doc know you, that's pathetic. Twice in 18 years? Where do you do your call audits / CME's? Back to the billing question - Can two different agencies bill for the same call (one ALS non-transport and one BLS transport)?

Volunteers can support this bill because it is not limited to fire departments and there are duplicative and redundant layers of government all over the state. Volunteers are taxpayers too, aren't they? This does include police and fire departments too, even on Long Island. You assert that Long Island is a model for others to follow but I respectfully disagree. There are about 179 fire departments on Long Island operating more apparatus than NYC and LA combined out of about 490 stations and buildings. This is your model of efficiency? What if your neighbors found out they could pay only ten cents per day for the same level of efficiency and service from a regionalized service? How much do they pay in homeowners insurance with your system and how much would they pay if the fire service was regionalized and response times improved? Note, that I'm not suggesting a career service. If you truly have enough volunteers with adequate training there is no reason to go to a career service. Now the question is do you have enough properly trained firefighters to do the job? Who makes that determination? If there is no external oversight and no accountability how can anyone be sure of what the reality is? In 2005, the cost for Long Island fire service was estimated at 311 MILLION dollars (plus 57 MILLION in reserves) and had been increased 14% since 2003. This is not a lie, it is public information. What warranted that double digit increase? It certainly wasn't an increase in fire load or salary increases for paid employees. Despite all this spending, there is no guarantee that there will be a timely fire or EMS response on Long Island. There are about 150 heavy rescue companies on Long Island - how many are actually necessary? Taxpayers could save more than 52 MILLION dollars in vehicle replacement costs alone on this one type of apparatus if the heavy rescue coverage was regionalized and reduced to 50 for the island. That's still ten times as many as are in service in NYC. Your pride and dedication is admirable but your blind faith in the system as it exists today is naive and you may in fact be the one lying to yourself. Absent some accountability and better oversight both fiscally and operationally, I don't see it the same way as you. That's not jealousy, it's simple responsiblility. I'm not suggesting that anything be taken away from your department or that you be replaced by a career firefighter but your rhetoric about the perils of this legislation is way off base.

It is all about what is best for the patient and these types of discussions may be spawned here but carry on at the firehouse kitchen table (that we hear so much about), the EMS shift change, classrooms or drills, and other venues where specific agency guidelines and policies can be discussed. Veteran providers (regardless of service) can provide info to newer members and improve their clinical insight and perhaps even judgement. The specific incident that prompted the start of this thread is being discussed conceptually - not specifically - and nobody is bashing anyone, quite the contrary. I for one do not have any personal knowledge of this incident and stated so. That notwithstanding, my opinion is that it is the rare case where a medevac is appropriate in such close proximity to a trauma center or perhaps even a local hospital. I've been involved in situations where a helicopter is requested within 5 miles of a trauma center. Where is the logic in that? Barring extremely unusual circumstances, it will take longer to go by air in those cases and I question whether or not that is the right call. Some questions were asked and have been answered and nobody engaged in any monday morning quarterbacking. We're discussing things generally and objectively. Please try not to get defensive or take this personally as that is not the goal here.

These posts were extracted from a closed thread but the topic is worthy of continued discussion. The scene in question was 8 miles (via road not direct) from the Westchester Medical Center and since no entrapment was reported, one has to wonder why 42 minutes elapsed on scene when the travel time would be 10-12 minutes with traffic. WAS, if this call is reviewed will it be by the ALS provider or both ALS and BLS? Since the FD requested the helicopter it is unclear if it was at the direction of EMS on scene or a decision made prior to their arrival. Any idea bout that? NOTE - THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE CRITICAL BUT RATHER A LEARNING PROCESS.

Four months, 9-5 every weekday is only one possible schedule. Those who say it can't be done are poisoning the rest of us. As mbendel said, it just takes some creativity and imagination to come up with a plan to meet the training objectives with certified instructors. And it isn't about whether or not you train in your house prior to, during, or after the "academy" or "basic training". That's GREAT and it should be standardized but the sad fact is if you have a laid back crew/chief/department you're not doing as much training as a progressive department so what do you get? Bad habits from people with questionable training in the first place. Is there any mechanism to train the "field training officers" so you learn the right things the right way? Once you complete FF1, FF2, etc. what are the refresher requirements? Do you ever have to attend "updated" training? Correct me if I'm wrong but don't career FF have 100 hours in-service training per year? I for one am tired of all the "we can't do this/that stuff". We most certainly can - we just need to try (and this is true of PD, FD, and EMS - not just this topic!).

Date: 05/29/09 - still ongoing Time: current Location: Melendrez fires east of Green Valley in the Santa Rita Mountains. Just outside Phoenix, AZ Departments: numerous Description: Lightning started a few large wildfires - the largest of which is now over 1400 acres and only 15% contained. 3 hot-shot crews, two helicopters, and numerous ground crews/engines are working to protect residential and grazing areas. Crews are lighting back fires to protect the perimeter and allow old brush within the fire area to be consumed. The Melendrez Pass Fire increased from 3 acres on Friday to 30 to 50 acres Saturday and 1425 on Sunday. One of the other fires is 30 acres and about 80% contained. Links: http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=104...mp;nav=menu86_2 Writer: Chris192

I'm not sure I understand your comment. Does Maryland have two different standards for firefighter training? One for volunteers and another for career? My concern is that there will be vast differences in training without a single common standard for "firefighter". No distinctions for interior, exterior, etc.; if you're a firefighter you have all the training to do the job. As for the school districts, I like Raz's point. Let's see if we can organize the political subdivisions that make up 15-20% of the tax base FIRST and then attack the school district problems. The issue may not be the dissolution or consolidation of school districts but rather the enforcement of some common sense limits on their taxing ability. School taxes where I live have had double digit increases every year. The student population hasn't exploded, teacher contracts haven't given them double digit raises so why the huge increases every year?

Date: 05/31/09 Time: 1:00 PM Location: Occoquan River Dam Departments: Prince William County Fire Department, Fairfax County Police, Fairfax County Police Aviation, and United States Park Police Aviation Description: A boat with two fishermen on board became disabled and was pulled by the curent to a dam in the Occoquan River. The fishermen jumped from the vessel just before it was swept over the dam to the rocks/river 50 feet below. The two fishermen held on just upstream from the dam. FD and PD personnel responded and due to the nature of the rescue, requested the US Park Police Aviation Unit and Fairfax County Police Aviation Unit to rescue the two victims. Fairfax County (operating a Bell 407) lowered a line with helmets and life vests for the two men but one of them grabbed the rope. Fairfax County then performed an impromptu short-haul rescue delivering the man to a waiting FD boat upstream. The US Park Police (operating a Bell 412) responded and hoisted the second victim to safety. Rescuers are certain that the conditions would have caused fatal injuries had the men gone over the dam and waterfall. The boat was destroyed. Links: Satellite View of Scene http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx...5&catid=187 Writer: Chris192

Interesting question. I would speculate that if the training standards are the same for both career and volunteer, it shouldn't be that big of an issue. Looking at the big combo departments down south and in other places, it works so there is really no reason - except egos and attitudes - to prevent it from working here. It would be incumbent upon the managment of the department to work out schedules and riding assignments. As Barry said, you could have first response career apparatus and secondary response volunteer apparatus or if the volunteers wanted to be scheduled for a shift in the same manner as a career person (that is there for an entire shift), they could be added to a first due piece. There are so many more reasons to do this than not it is really disappointing to see the resistance. Stay safe!

Don't forget heat exhaustion, dehydration, and smoke inhalation although you may not be calling them "injuries". Sometimes I think the newspaper makes this sound worse than it is - firefighters becoming dehydrated or suffering from heat exhaustion (not a big surprise in the environment) and being treated either on the scene or at the hospital makes the news as "injured" when in fact they're back to work in a matter of hours. This is a general comment and not specific to the fire of May 21 as I have no personal knowledge of that incident or injuries [/disclaimer].

Police Chief is a civil service position and in most places a tested one. Commissioner is a political appointment so there is no requirement for current police officer status. Letter from Sheriff on the subject News story on the subject (possibly source of original quote)

That editorial is a must read! Especially when everyone is looking to cut emergency services because of the economy...

Hey all... I hate to dispel rumors especially when its getting so many people all fired up but the legislation is not limited to fire departments/districts. It applies to any local government entity - water districts, sewer districts, lighting districts, TOWNS, VILLAGES, and fire districts. Opposing this legislation doesn't insure the safety of the volunteer fire service, it insures that NYS retains more than 1500 special districts including countless duplicate ones. It is absurd not to include the school districts especially since they account for the majority of our taxes but for whatever reasons they saw fit not to in this round. Perhaps if this is even remotely successful (like two jurisdictions actually merge), it will be expanded. The complete text of the proposed legislation is attached in a pdf file. It doesn't compel anyone to do it and it doesn't "endanger" the fire service. That's scare tactics plain and simple. It simply enables the tax payers to fix what's been broken for decades - true "home rule" in action. Municipal_Consolidation_Legislation_2009.pdf

There's a straight forward procedure for it. I worked with at least one person seeking certification who had to go through this process and they were successful. It is time consuming and requires a little bit of leg work but if you want to be an EMT or medic, you can work through it... http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/ems/policy/02-02.htm

We're in total agreement that the underlying situation and the timing of the "interaction" is highly suspect - something prompted the trooper to stop the ambulance at the time (maybe, and this pure speculation on my part they didn't have lights/siren going because it was not necessary for their transport and the trooper didn't know they had a patient onboard). Advocating resisting arrest under any circumstances is a risky proposition. From the medic's sworn "statement" it sounds as though he physically resisted arrest twice - that the trooper(s) allowed that to happen twice is another breakdown but that's for another thread. My only point is that if a uniformed police officer informs you that you are under arrest, you're under arrest, to physically resist is another charge that may stand regardless of the disposition of the underlying charge(s). People also tend to get hurt in situations like that. For anyone to suggest that it is appropriate to physically resist arrest is just plain wrong, end of story. Tell you partner to call another ambulance, comply with the trooper, and then let the chips fall where they may. I'll tell you if the medic complied with the trooper and was taken into custody without struggle it would make the whole thing look even worse for the trooper. Believe me, I'm being sensible. If you resist arrest you're apt to get hurt, a cop is apt to get hurt, and the situation will only escalate. Where is the sense in that?

I don't know what led up to the situation we see on the video. I only know what I saw on the video and that was a uniformed police officer informing someone that they were under arrest. When he took the subjects wrist, he pulled away from the trooper and physically resisted. According to NYS law that's resisting arrest. All these wild generalizations about police in this thread are out of control. I'm basing my opinion solely on the little we saw in the video and am not implying that the police were right or the that the paramedic was wrong except as I stated above. I will certainly say that it could have been handled better but I'm not going to judge based on incomplete information. Rest assured that all this will be investigated and, if appropriate, the police officers involved will be dealt with in accordance with the law and their department's rules and regulations (rules and regulations that are generally more stringent than any the law or fire/EMS rules). It is never appropriate to resist arrest under any circumstances. Yes, the trooper may be wrong but there are mechanisms to deal with that none of them involve resisting arrest. "Someone" was a uniformed state trooper. Believe me, I find it hard to believe that the entire situation transpired but it did and now we're speculating about it and we're drawing conclusions without the facts. It is very likely that the trooper(s) were out of line but I'm not going to condemn them without the full story - a story which we will probably never be privy to. Goose, we don't have all the information but if you read this thread you see some wild generalizations about cops, how these cops should be locked up and/or disciplined and so on. That's my point. I'm not saying the paramedic is or isn't a saint but come on, who knows what really happened. I'll be the first to say that the situation was not handled well but beyond that I just don't know what happened or who is really to blame for it. It could be that both parties escalated it, who knows?

Was probably already in the area or assigned to a local task force or local office or something. The odds of the FBI being called before countless other agencies are slim to none.

The video shows a trooper informing someone that he is under arrest and he physically resists. Like it or not, for any reason, that is wrong. According to the audio, there was an "assault" that was not caught on video. If the "paramedic" was being arrested for assault, it may not have been inappropriate to delay the arrest - assault, after, all is a crime. If the whole thing stemmed from a traffic incident, it could have been resolved later at the hospital but it doesn't condone anyone physically resisting arrest. If there was an assault of some kind, you're all rushing to judgment condemning the cops. I really wish all of you leaping to judgment would take a moment to consider that you're seeing 30 seconds of video about an incident that apparently occurred off-video. Before you rush to your conclusion, consider that you don't have all the facts or information. Wow, the incident is as pathetic as the responses here...

Spirited debate is one thing, disputes are another. Sarcasm and parody are one thing, jabs or snipes at each other are another. We don't always have to agree - in fact it would be pretty boring if we did. But we do have to at least respect each other's opinions and viewpoints. With that said, enough is enough. If you can't keep this thread on topic without the snipes it will have to be locked and I don't want to do that. Let this serve as a warning to those who may not be aware of it... You can speak your mind, lobby for your cause, and defend your position all you want but do not call other members out or personally attack another member. If you can not articulate your point without demeaning or belittling someone else, please take your comments elsewhere. Everyone wants to be called a professional regardless of their position/pay status/affiliation so let's actually be professional and mature. Thanks all!

This wasn't access for a legit photographer. This was a crime scene and the media/buff photogs would never have had the access to take photos of the victim. This idiot violated the trust of the people he's supposed to be caring for and deserves to be stripped of his certification. This is right up there with stealing from a patient. I've taken photos of scenes before, and used them in training programs to highlight our job, but posting them on facebook (or whatever site like it) is absurd. Disgusting!

Coincidental this time. Airports are required by the FAA to conduct full-scale exercises every three years so it just happened to coincide with the investigation/arrests. Besides, if the exercise was related it would have been a crash somewhere proximal to the airport but not on the airport given their planned attack. Awesome work - especially for feds!

Interesting topic. I would have to say that yes, EMT's are generally too medic dependent or rely too heavily on them in their decision making processes. Before the proliferation of ALS services, EMT's functioned - and functioned well - performing the skills necessary and transporting patients in extremis while providing the best BLS care possible. Today, some EMT's won't even perform an assessment on a patient and wait until the medic gets there to let them do it. Still others won't cancel the medic even on obviously BLS calls. Some medics don't help the situation by not trusting EMT's to do things and fostering this reliance on them too. In systems where the medic is dispatched on every call there is also a problem. Systems like that don't enable the EMT to develop their skills and judgment. Relegating the EMT to fly-car driver doesn't help either. There has to be a better way to operate without doing that. EMT training is also a factor in this. Alot of EMT courses cover the bare minimum just to meet the standard for certification and don't give EMT's a strong foundation to develop their skills and judgment.