helicopper

It is actually the same issue. It is a municipal employee providing what is, arguably, a municipal service. If the PD, VAC, and member in question don't have a problem with it, why should we? I'd also contend that fire calls may take a substantial amount of time and you don't know that from the time of dispatch. "Automatic alarm" calls may take only 15 minutes but what happens when that "alarm" is due to a FIRE? Long time, sometimes hours. Ambulance calls usually take less than an hour (depending on transport times obviously). But that's irrelevant to this discussion. It really isn't like being down a PO either. If the PO is dispatched to the aided case and has to wait until a mutual aid ambulance arrives, he'll be out of service almost the same amount of time just waiting for an ambulance. I have to agree with x635 also. This is just another bandaid fix to a major systemic problem in EMS, adequate staffing.

This would be true if an MCI was actually managed and didn't manage the responders. How many times have you walked up to the "Transport Officer" only to find out that they have no idea who went where or in what condition? I've seen it at both incidents and exercises alike. Sometimes all we do is relocate the incident from the street to the hospital. We all know how many patients it takes to overwhelm a facility. Hospitals do have to have some surge capacity but it isn't like EMS mutual aid. You can't just ring a bell and have "extra" people respond from other floors or units. Hospitals have no extra people anymore; they're doing more with less also. Patient to RN ratios are already obscenely high, most facilities have done away with support staff so there aren't the extra people in house that can be drawn from. So "calling in" additional staff can be done but takes time. Surge capacities and call-ins aren't intended to be instant mutual aid and we have to be realistic in our expectations. Too bad it took the threat of fiscal implications to get them to do this. It's just going to mean unattended patients in hallways again though because hospitals may have extra beds lying around but no staff to care for their occupants. Diversion is only a courtesy and it would be nice if the staff remembered that instead of abusing the EMS crews.

Link to Incident Alert Link to In Memorium Thread This thread is for discussion about the incident.

Yes, they suffer a pay cut. No, they don't get retro. Sadly they can do that.

Thanks, Chief. I'm going to have to research whether or not the same applies to PD in NYS because I've been lead to believe that for demotions, it was time in grade but for layoffs it was time in municipal service as you said. Interesting discussion, hopefully none of us have to find this out firsthand!

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/lakewood/story/974290.html

The newly promoted Captain would be demoted. Time in grade is how they determine seniority for such things. In the event of layoffs, the newest would go first. If a department was to "downsize", they wouldn't layoff a Captain but they could demote the Captain to Lt., demote a Lt. to FF, and layoff the newest FF to reduce the numbers.

The Sheriff's Office may be able to pursue state charges of interference (assuming that is a state charge in WA) because they communicated directly with the news station and the station ignored their request to move off, and actually told them they "didn't have to". Had this been a camera crew on the ground who was ordered to move out of a crime scene to protect the integrity of the operations and they refused, they could be arrested. Just because the crew was in the air may not negate the validity of such a charge. The fact that there wasn't a TFR may be a defense for the crew but they were told three times that they were interfering. I think they'll find a lot of people who will agree that they should have just backed off. In my experience, and from what I've learned from many others, most ENG aircraft are extremely cooperative and work closely with their law enforcement counterparts. I don't understand why this went the way it did. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

No police agency (aviation or otherwise) has the authority to close or restrict airspace. The Federal government retains exclusive control over all airspace; this is to prevent a complicated maze of different rules in different places (you know, like things are here on the ground in NY). All the Sheriff's Office had to do was request a Temporary Flight Restriction (TFR) be issued by the FAA for the airspace over the area in question. Apparently, they did not do that initially or it wasn't issued during the timeframe that this all transpired. Abaduck is absolutely correct, a NOTAM could have been issued in just a couple of minutes announcing the TFR. That notwithstanding, a reasonable person would probably have heeded the first request to move out of the area and not have to be told three different times to move off. What I don't understand is, given the sophistication of the ENG equipment on most media helicopters, they could have gotten the footage they needed from a substantial distance away. I don't get the "we don't have to" nonsense; they have to work with the SO on a regular basis and this is not going to endear them to area law enforcement.

Date: 11/29/09 Time: approximately 0815 (PST) Location: Gorza Coffee Shop near McChord AFB (35 miles south of Seattle) Departments: Lakewood PD, Pierce County SO, Fire and EMS, Pierce County Medical Examiner, FBI, and others Description: Four police officers doing paperwork at the start of their shift were shot and killed when an unknown assailant entered the shop and opened fire. Employees in the coffee shop were uninjured and no robbery was committed. Officials doubt that robbery was the motive because four marked police vehicles were outside and all four officers were in uniform. They are treating it as an ambush and execution. Two police officers were shot, one fatally, in Seattle last month. The suspect in that homicide is in custody. Links: http://www.officer.com/web/online/Top-News-Stories/Four-Officers-Shot-Dead-in-Washington-Coffee-Shop-Ambush/1$49535 http://www.examiner.com/x-25653-FBI-Examiner~y2009m11d29-FBI-joins-effort-to-find-killers-of-four-police-officers-in-Parkland-Wash http://www.seattlepi.com/local/412727_shooting29.html?source=mypi http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/US-Police-Officers-Shot-Dead-In-Coffee-Shop-Near-McChord-Air-Force-Base-In-Washington-US/Article/200911415478484 Writer: Chris192 Link to In Memorium Thread Link to Discussion Thread

The fourth amendment is not violated when a warrant is used to obtain a blood sample or accepted exigencies apply to the warrantless drawing of blood. The case you cite specifically states that it is acceptable to physically restrain someone to draw their blood. The issue is that they failed to obtain a warrant first but had the opportunity to do so. You can protest all you want but a warrant is a warrant and whether the search is for your blood or your house or your computer, it is going to be searched. From the decision: Moreover, in this case it was the suppression of the evidence that was reversed and the conviction was upheld. Some people also have an inherent fear of being senslessly slaughtered by a drunk driver crossing to their side of the road or driving the wrong way on a highway. How about the mental stress and fear from that?

Well said, I too worked for non-union shops where the pay was better than at comparable union shops so that is a good point. Most PBA's are even too small (obviously NYPD is an exception) to be recognized by the state; that's why they have joined associations of PBA's to form a larger base and louder voice. I believe that you get what you pay for and most communities try to do EMS on the cheap instead of trying to invest in a quality program. Until that changes, it won't matter whether you're union or not, you're still at the mercy of elected officials who don't give a darn about you or the system.

I've worked for both and have seen good and bad in each. I don't think there's a magic cure (union or otherwise) to the ills that plague EMS and most EMS agencies don't have the numbers of people to be a real lobbying force. Goose, people have died and we've had media coverage about response times and disparate levels of care but little has really changed. The sad fact is that we (generally speaking) are just as apathetic and complacent as the public when it comes to this.

Not exactly old news but it has been discussed before. The following is text from the NIMS alert (attached below) on the subject (emphasis added): This is the link to the referenced guide to plain language: http://www.safecomprogram.gov/SAFECOM/library/interoperabilitybasics/1371_plainlanguage.htm NIMS_ALERT_06-09.pdf

I believe, correct me if I'm wrong please, that Empress dispatches the MV units in the same manner as they do Yonkers units. I guess TransCare will have to have a new set-up for dispatch.

Both the cities of Yonkers and Mount Vernon have the shot-spotter. The initial purchase and installation was funded by the county and annual upkeep will be the responsibility of the local community. I'm all for using technology but I have to say that without enough cops on the ground to expeditiously respond to these calls, the return on the investment is going to be marginal at best. Given the layoffs and hiring freezes that both cities have faced, perhaps the money could have been better spent on personnel rather than technology. Of course we've evolved into a technology dependent society so projects like this one seem like the answer. (sigh)

EMS mergers and acquisitions have a statutory review process so to imply that there may have been impropriety or unethical conduct without any factual information to substantiate the claim is highly suspect. There are always "issues" in business and like it or not EMS is a business. Do you have any information on the disposition of the issues to which you refer or are you just casting stones? Those who lose or do not receive a contract almost always cry foul so is your post really anything more than sour grapes? Jim O'Connor, like anyone else, is free to choose who he works for and perhaps it was in his best interest to leave Empress due to their financial instability and bankruptcy. I don't know and it is not appropriate to speculate on anyone's career choices in this forum. If you have factual issues about companies and/or contract awards that you'd like to bring up, please do so but your post is nothing but speculation and innuendo. Jim O'Connor has spent his entire career lobbying for EMS in our area and has been a steadfast advocate for professional patient care so unless you have facts to back up your allegations, please do not impugn his character. Before anyone makes any accusations, I do not, nor have I ever, work for Jim O'Connor or TransCare but we served on the Hudson Valley Regional EMS Council at the same time so I do know a little bit about him. I'd like to see the definition of "professional contract" that obviates the need for competitive bidding for something like this. For 30 years in Westchester County almost every EMS contract was awarded after a bidding process so to suddenly deviate from that practice does seem irregular. Why would a municipality waste the time and money going through that process if they didn't have to? MODERATOR NOTE: Any future posts bashing an individual or company will be removed. Discuss this issue professionally and cite your sources if you claim any wrongdoing or other improper conduct. Rumors and speculation are not "sources". Thank you!

Nope, change is never easy. When I worked in Mount Vernon we changed patches three times in less than three years. With one of the changes, the vehicles even remained the same. Despite this, EMS still responded to the calls for service and gave and got mutual aid when necessary. Empress and TransCare may be competitors but they both strive to provide quality medical care so we should wish all involved the best of luck and not weigh into the internal politics of the situation. As for the contract/bidding issue, that may prove to be quite interesting! I've never heard of a contract such as this being awarded without a bidding process. We'll have to see what happens. Good luck to all those involved in this transition!

How many dedicated units? What about the Pelhams? Who is covering them now?

Of course they're public servants but they may not be municipal employees and that may be part of the distinction. In some parts of NYS, firefighters are peace officers so that affords them different legal status than other personnel. This isn't a matter of perception, it's a matter of legal definitions and apparently its different for FD and EMS in Delaware. I tried to find the murder statutes online but haven't been successful yet. Hopefully once we read the law this will make more sense.

Insane!

So that would mean the City of Newburgh would run with just one engine and one truck? That's insane!

Would you care to cite your source so we can all read the article and follow-up on the story?

While it would be nice for them to be arrested and prosecuted (and if appropriate deported), it would be even nicer for them to accost an off-duty police officer or a martial artist who could return their attention appropriately. Cowardly little B*&%!@#(%s

Valid questions but I think it's safe to say that there's more going on to stop this rash of robberies than will be printed in the newspaper. Wouldn't be very effective if they told everyone what tactics are being employed to catch these guys. The 7-11 suspects are striking at a time when there is the lowest number of police available; that makes setting up a quick and effective perimeter difficult. Add to that the fact that in less than 60 seconds they can be in another jurisdiction who may not yet be aware of the incident and they're almost home free. Police communications in Westchester County needs an update and there needs to be a faster, more efficient way to get critical information out there to all agencies! Before you say it, the hotline works but it has its drawbacks, too.