helicopper

Can anyone address my earlier questions (above)?

Unlike tax and spend New York, they're NOT going to raise taxes. They CAN'T without taxpayer approval...

Just curious... Given the scope of the I-84 operations (from Middletown to the state line in Southeast) where was the Command Post and who was in it? Why were the stranded motorists left on the highway for 14 hours and not removed via snowmobile or ATV? Was that a conscious decision by someone or just how it worked out? Reminds me of a similar situation in PA during the winter of 2007. PA really took it on the chin for their management of the storm response. The full report is available here.

If this continues the whole notion of promotional "exams" may be thrown out in favor of quotas not based on performance or merit but simply race. Not a good sign especially since the Obama administration is leading the charge...

Thank you efdcapt for summing up the Buffalo situation so eloquently. Now, generally speaking... "EVERY" may be a strong word. Barring a contractual obligation as is apparently the case in Buffalo, there are probably a great many jurisdictions that prohibit such expenditures. See the post above, there's at least one political subdivisiont that won't pay for alcohol. Very well said and I would venture to guess that using this as a defense may come back and bite you if there's ever an instance of funds crossing this magic company/district "line".

Here's one of the greatest misunderstandings in ICS and a lot of other things for that matter. You don't have to be the expert on the specific hazard to be the IC, you have to be able to manage resources. One of the best IC's in the State of New York (IMHO) is a DEC Forest Ranger and another retired from a Sheriff's Office and worked in Emergency Management. It's about knowing the process and being able to manage it regardless of the scenario you're confronted with. All emergency responders out west get the same ICS training and learn how to manage an initial response. Remember the basic tenet that the first arriving responder is the initial IC, regardless of their agency. We certainly don't practice that around here though. This could obviously be handled better but none of us know what preceding the handcuffs arrival on scene. I'd submit that no matter who the IC is they have a responsibility to everyone on the road and restoring traffic should be (is) a concern for them too. Keep in mind that a two minute closure (and I've never seen one last just 2 minutes) translates into a 10 minute delay 5 miles down the road and a 30 minute delay 15 miles down the road. That cascading effect is something we should all strive to avoid. Agreed, unified command is a good solution. In this particular case, though, there is a statutory assignment of command. You can use a clipboard as a command post if you have to. Just cause you can't paint "incident commander" on the side of a motorcycle doesn't mean it can't be the ICP. It probably does just boil down to poor communications and you're right on all points. Sorry, but there is a spokesperson for Unified Command if properly set-up and executed, there is no "lead IC". This is probably the greatest obstacle to our becoming truly successful in implementing ICS and unified command as designed. All the commanders in the unified command post have equal authority and responsibility for their piece of the puzzle and resources. If a brand-spanking new Lt. in the FD shows up at a major incident wouldn't he be just as ill-prepared for all the management responsibilities? That's why we transfer command when necessary and we designate appropriate subordinates who are the specific subject matter experts (supervisors for fire group, EMS group, shelter group, etc.). All this said, there's really no excuse for things to get so bad at a scene that someone winds up in handcuffs. Hopefully all the parties involved make strides to prevent this from happening again.

Are you rubbing it in?

Isn't one of the more fundamental issues that this is a village of .2 square miles with a completely autonomous, independent fire department?

25 years ago there was also that series in the Journal News about the very same issue "Where you live could cost your life" and what's changed besides the calendar? We have many ambulances sitting idly by that cannot be staffed on a day to day basis and we lack the discipline and organization to staff them right if are confronted with a major disaster. We'll have 4 people on the ambulances that do get out, BLS fly-cars, and POV's showing up and empty ambulances sitting in stations that are being passed by mutual aid ambulances coming from long distances away. At the northern end of the county we do have staffing issues because of dwindling numbers of volunteers but on the south end of the county we have mostly "low-bid" providers who have the bare minimum number of resources for the day to day stuff let alone a "big one".

Just on this point - it's because we're a home-rule state and any time the County or State tries to do anything even close to progressive it is shot down by the very same people who so desperately need the assistance and direction. In the late 1980's there was an effort at the Hudson Valley Regional EMS Council to adopt a response time standard in accordance with the AHA guidance on the topic. I think it was something like 8 minutes 90% of the time. It was met with such resistance it never even came up for a vote. Where did the resistance come from? From the EMS agencies (commercial and volunteer alike). We're our own worst enemies.

Realism in exercises is definitely an issue. I've heard some wild things from people about what they'll during an exercise when they've actually never even trained or exercised that capability or skill. That oughta be a really interesting evolution to watch. As much as I'm not a fan of the way the Feds try to shoehorn everything into a tidy little acronym or under the veil of some new definition one thing that is right on the mark is capability based planning. This is also incorporated into the exercise process. Hmmm... the exercise process. That's another problem most of us have, we don't follow the process. The process isn't picking the most convenient Saturday when odds are the weather will be favorable and inviting all your friends and neighbors to play with the toys for a few hours followed by a barbecue or other social event. Yet this is how most agencies approach exercises. Some even choose the same scenario year in and year out focusing only on one hazard or problem. The process should start with a capabilities assessment to determine what needs to be exercised in the first place. What capabilities do we have, what capabilities do we need? This coupled with a legitimate hazard analysis can be used to guide training, equipment procurement, deployment strategies, policies and plans, and the exercise process. How many agencies have had a tabletop exercise at which they've assessed their own in-house capability to respond to a given scenario - realistically using likely numbers of responders, available mutual aid, real response times, and actual equipment and resources? That's the start. You should build up to a full-scale exercise but everyone seems to start with them and they overlook the value of discussion based exercises leading up to the event. And there should be an after action report and improvement plan so the same mistakes aren't repeated over and over. All this is tied to the money too, if you don't do it this way you're not going to get any from the feds.

Or by AIR!!!

The discussion about cop movies spawned this thread. Now let's see what we think are the best of all times. To start the list (in no particular order) Dragnet Adam 12 Car 54 Baretta Kojak CHIPS The Rookies Mod Squad Barney Miller Hill Street Blues Third Watch Columbo The District Banacek Hawaii 5-0 Magnum PI Miami Vice The Rockford Files SWAT TJ Hooker Law and Order

http://www.mta.info/mta/news/releases/?agency=mnr&en=090514-MNR15 These were exercises not training sessions. Unless you are part of the response plan for Yonkers or Mount Vernon you wouldn't get a notice about the exercises in those communities. Metro North has run training sessions on their equipment right at the Croton Harm Yards so I can't imagine why you didn't know about it. I've seen the notices and I'm not even in the fire service. If your department's Chief or Training Officer reaches out to the people already identified, Streany, Spanky or Stinson, I'm sure they'll set you up with the training you seek. As for planning, that has to be done by you because every station is different and virtually every mile of track is different.

Original medic class? Was that instructed by Dr. Joe Early or Dr. Kelly Brackett by chance?

The MTA does drills every year but they rotate the locations so more people can take advantage of the opportunity. Call them and ask where this year's is going to be, I'm sure they'll tell you. As for their training and outreach about services/equipment/hazards, they also offer that on a frequent basis. Being from Croton I'm surprised you guys haven't seen it all already.

http://www.pcnr.com/news/2010-02-17/Front_Page/PV_Moves_Toward_New_Firehouse.html This starts what will most certainly be a contentious SEQR process as there are several outspoken critics of the plan and expense who have already registered their objections and will continue to fight the project. Despite the naysayers, the FD continues to work toward upgrading from their current sixty (?) year old home.

The FD is going to have its hands full justifying the multi-million dollar expense to a fairly conservative constituency. They're also facing some very loud and tireless opponents who are making them out to be irresponsible spendthrifts who are ignoring the economic reality of the town. I've told them that they really need to mount a serious PR campaign to get the message out - the real message not the opposition rhetoric - if they want to have any chance of moving this along. I really hope they agree because they need more widespread support.

Response times, staffing levels, and the benefits of regionalization and/or consolidation are not unique to the volunteer fire community. The study completed at the behest of the Career Chief's Association addressed all those issues in 10 career (or combination) departments - but not any volunteer departments. Frankly, I don't see an all career FD in northern Westchester happening ever and I've never heard anyone say that is the answer. If these same points were raised by a volunteer chief would there be such an uproar (or would you just take away his secret decoder ring )? The issues are the issues. The sensitivity to them seems to be exacerabated when they're brought up by a career chief. For some reason, and diagnosing this is for another thread, most of the volunteer officers seem to be content with what they've got instead of advocating for improvement. Can we at least agree that there are issues (like response times, staffing levels, and other things) that need to be addressed?

In a word, UNPROFESSIONAL.

If you can roster crews and/or staff apparatus in quarters for special events, why can't you do it all the time and insure an adequate and timely response to a fire? I'm glad some departments are waking up and recognizing that while it can be a fraternal organization, the fire department is first and foremost an emergency service. Great posts Medic5274, BFD1054, Remember585. Thanks for seeing past the nonsense and responding intelligently to the issue.

Police Magazine is doing a survey to see what the best cop movies of all time were... http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Patrol/News/2010/02/18/Police-Academy-Awards.aspx Jump straight to the poll... http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=xd%2fujReigiIjXt7Nes8eTbX7uYQPA2bmfaoUB1C7z4Y%3d& What do you think? What're the best cop movies of all time?

I'd have to say that we're terribly prepared for a train wreck in Belgium, geez, just think of the response time! Seriously now, this is a great thread because so many areas have rail lines running through them. efdcapt115 hits on many of the key points so I'll just expand on a couple of them. The management of the incident really needs to be organized, not just by assigning an IC and staging area manager but by fully staffing the planning and logistics sections because this incident is not going away anytime soon. Planning to organize the resource requirements and keep things on track, logistics because someone has to get all the stuff that efdcapt identified as being required. I would argue strongly against the "y'all come" request for everyone to respond. Because they will and that will overwhelm the management and quickly become counterproductive. Every department should have a preplan for the credible worst case scenario in their community; it shouldn't be up to the overwhelmed IC to figure out what is needed on the fly. If you have a commuter rail line running through your response area there should be standing run cards that can quickly and efficinently be activated, just as is done for multiple fire alarms. An assumption seems to be made that this is in an accessible area but if you look at much of the Metro North system, the line runs through some pretty remote (by metro NY area standards) areas. How will you get the lights and trucks and equipment to the scene if it isn't roadside? Triage needs to happen as quickly as possible and ambulatory victims need to be escorted to an area of safety for further examination and treatment. Provisions for the evacuation of non-ambulatory victims also needs to be addressed. Credentialing of responders and a bona fide accountability system need to be established and perimeters maintained to limit access to the scene - even by those in turnouts or with badges, stars, bars, or blue t-shirts. Start working with Metro North or the responsible party to insure that all those stranded are being taken care of. Are there other trains stuck between stations? Are buses being mobilized to ferry them around the crash scene. Food, water, rehab for the responders on scene (another reason to only call what's requested or you'll wind up with nothing but empty pizza boxes and orange soda left when the front line troops finally get a break). Information to the public to allay anxiety and answer questions about loved ones. Hundreds of thousands of people ride the trains, that's a lot of phone calls to 911 trying to figure out who was on the train in question. Alright, who's next?

Now a moderator note: If you don't like the thread, don't read it. There's no need to bash the thread just because you disagree with it. If we all did that there'd be one or two substantive posts and 20-30 negative ones in a great many threads on the forum. There's just no need for that. Answer the question if you choose to. Ignore the issue if you choose to. But please don't disrupt the conversation that other people choose to have.

Are any departments or communities cutting parades or declining to participate because of the fiscal and operational impact they have?