helicopper

We seem to be in agreement on most points but I would argue that even if there was a Chief serving as IC it is very likely that there would be no written documentation on the progression either. We are all notoriously BAD at documenting initial operations especially at a job like this one. I would submit that we could query the Chief's (IC's) for the last months worth of working jobs and have virtually no real-time documentation. Sure, reports may have been prepared retrospectively but the way I read your post you're suggesting that because the IC was the Lt. there's no real-time documentation. It sounds as though there may be other labor issues at work but I won't specualate on them. I would guess though that there is something in the Village charter relating to the fire department. With regard to the training curriculum for ICS, there were a couple of really good programs out there before the standardization brought about by NIMS. I will argue that the failure isn't in the curriculum but the implementation of it in two specific areas - 1. The proliferation of self-proclaimed experts teaching ICS and the revolving door training program at FEMA (EMI and NFA) for ICS instructors. You can't learn everything about ICS this week and start teaching it next week but that's what they've done. It's been so watered down that many of the critical concepts are being lost. 2. The failure of most municipalities/agencies to actually use ICS in the manner it is designed/intended. We pay it lip-service but there are still fundamental misunderstandings and poor applications of the system on a daily basis all over the place. Some other thoughts... You can have a delegation of authority without putting it in writing. It's a slippery slope but on a job like this one they aren't going to go back to Village Hall to draw one up. As for unified command, why would it be unauthorized? Again, I'll submit that our understanding and application of unified command is flawed but this may be fodder for another thread in the scenario section. Regarding the IC and his/her qualifications, I think we're trying to make the same point. Mine is that the IC should be the most qualified person on scene. You stated that that is incorrect. If not the most qualified, who then? I'm in no way criticizing the Pelham job either; from what I read it was an outstanding stop. This has just evolved into an interesting discussion on scene management.

There was an IC, it was just the FD Lieutenant and not a Chief. Can't that happen in a lot of departments (especially volunteer) during working hours? The IC isn't "the Chief", it's the most qualified person on the scene. That may be the Chief it may not. Unless the Village Manager is also a fire behavior expert it certainly wouldn't be him/her. I don't know why people get so wrapped around the axle about this or why we cultivate the misconception that only the Chief is/can be the IC.

Date: 07-21-10 Time: 0330hrs Location: IFO 19 Lawrence St c/s Bruce Ave Description: Multiple calls for shots fired. (2) Males shot by (2) perps and transported to St. Joe's in private vehicle. Writer: Chris192

NYPD Aviation did rappel ESU to the roof to clear obstructions during the 1993 bombing but they've never done it since.

I was very careful to base my comments on the information I received from people in the know and personal knowledge and I did not make assumptions. You clearly have an inside track as well so let me ask you, which of my observations is incorrect? Wasn't the PAPD Aviation Unit grossly under-utilized? If the reason for that was administrative red tape that's a shame but it doesn't change the fact that the PA wasn't using it's assets and cut its losses. The lost of a handful of jobs is tragic but they are all civilian jobs not police officers and they received a handsome severance package from the PA (six months pay to be exact). Odds are that they'll all be able to get jobs elsewhere in the region too. The Police Officers assigned to the helicopters when it did fly were performing the function of a tactical flight officer (TFO) and the helicopter shouldn't have been flying around without them; a civilian shouldn't be doing police work so the PA got that part right. Without a TFO, all the state of the art equipment to which you refer is useless. Now, did the PA provide those officers with any training or did they just take whomever was available? Again, wasting the resources. Another failure of the Port Authority to make the unit legitimate and worthwhile. I chatted personally with a PAPD cop at Newark just Saturday night and he laughed about the unit being abolished saying "it was about time" and that they didn't do anything to support them. Having the jurisdiction and authority to perform police work 25 miles around the Statue of Liberty that includes all of NYC and some of the most crime ridden areas of north Jersey but never encountering ANYTHING in eight months is a colossal waste. Not having the support of their own cops highlights this point. Possessing all the state of the art technology would be relevant if it was used. The day flight 1549 landed in the Hudson, the hoist on the rescue capable S-76 was in a crate in the hangar - very helpful indeed. The day the small plane crashed into the Hudson River in Yonkers (well within the 25 miles from the Statue of Liberty) it was an NYPD helicopter and a Coast Guard helicopter that rescued the vicitms. Claiming to have these incredible resources but not making them available is just smoke and mirrors and a failure of the PA administration. And while the MX-20 camera mounted aboard the helicopter is a great one, what do they have to show for it? According to reports, absolutely nothing. Give the Port Authority a couple of well equipped Bell 407's or A-stars, put well trained police aviators in them and let them do their jobs and we'd have an entirely different situation. It would not be a 3.7 million dollar per year corporate flying club; it would be a cutting edge law enforcement aviation unit at a fraction of the cost.

A few follow-up comments... You're absolutely right about Bergen County. I completely forgot about them and their light sport airplane. Sorry about that. It is limited in its capabilities but as you said it may open the door to other platforms in the future. As for the Port Authority on 9/11, they were a corporate flight department back then and did not "respond". Their aircraft are exactly the same (Sikorsky S-76) as the corporate and charter helicopters you see around our area. New York City (not the Port Authority) has been preparing for high rise emergencies since the mid 1980's and they executed that plan during the response to the 1993 WTC bombing. On 9/11 however there was only a short window when rooftop ops would have been feasible at tower 1 but there were no victims there to extract. Tower 2 was out of play due to the smoke from tower 1.

No issue. The arresting or processing officer observes the blood draw and receives the sample and the chain is fine.

No, the blood is drawn and collected as evidence by the PD and transported to, in Westchester County, the Department of Labs and Research for testing. In upstate areas, the bloods go to regional crime labs or facilities with agreements with a local PD so it may be tested in another part of the county or state. The location where it is drawn would only be affected by state lines as our VTL doesn't apply in CT, NJ, etc. New language (Jack Shea's Law): Original statute:

Hence the problem. According to well placed sources in the aviation community, PAPD's Aviation Unit brought on their own obsolescence. They didn't routinely support ground units and were operating one of the most expensive platforms in the industry (twin engine Sikorsky S-76 models at a cost of about 12-15 million EACH and over $1000 per hour to operate) to NOT do a job that is done well by aircraft at a fraction of the cost (anywhere from 1-3 million per aircraft and 2-3 hundred dollars per hour to operate). Regrettably the Newark PD grounded it's aviation unit on May 28th due to the city's fiscal woes and now the only aviation asset in northern New Jersey is the State Police who also have medevac and other responsibilities. Hopefully the State will redeploy some of it's assets to increase availability here in the metro area but they have the whole state to cover. Another problem is that because of the associated costs, aviation often winds up with a big fat bulls-eye on it. The fact is that aviation is an extremely cost-effective law enforcement resource when used properly! From what I've been told, the PAPD wasn't cost-effective or used properly. From a report on the cost effectiveness of police aviation - D. B. Schwarzbach (excerpt reprinted with permission of the author) Thank you, we'll pass. If the PA really wants a police aviation unit, it can start a police aviation unit and operate as one without the issues they had previously and at a fraction of the cost. By contrast, the Baton Rouge Lousiana PD just started an aviation unit seven months ago at about 1/4 the cost of the PAPD operation and they fly more and do more police work. On another note, do you know how many police officers 4 million dollars a year can get you? Don't make this peronal either. Khas knows a bit about police work and law enforcement aviation so he's as entitled to his opinion as you are.

In other news from the left coast... http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/06/sheriffs-dept-to-patrol-maywood-while-city-employees-now-face-lay-offs.html http://www.aviationtoday.com/rw/issue/cover/Police-Trim-Hours-Tap-Grants-to-Fly_68858.html Closer to home here on the right coast... http://www.trentonian.com/articles/2010/07/13/news/doc4c3be63f6edfc253930190.txt http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/communities/atlantic-city_pleasantville_brigantine/article_b7f5cc4c-8b9a-11df-a500-001cc4c03286.html Ugly, ugly news!

This isn't rocket science; you're absolutely right. This really just "cleans up" the existing law by allowing appropriately trained people to draw blood without direct physician supervision (as was required by the old statute). 90% of the time this becomes an issue in the hospital not on the street. If the person is not injured they do go to the PD for a breath test but when they are injured and are in the hospital, there are only certain people who were authorized - by law not by training - to perform the venipuncture to draw the bloods. Now the list is expanded to include personnel who may be appropriately asked to do the draw. I don't think an EMS agency can be called out for a function such as this without a prior agreement between the EMS agency and the PD so if you're an EMS agency administrator and not comfortable with this, don't do it.

I believe that police officers may have to live in NY state. It may be an archane law but I think it is still out there.

Because discussions like this are good for people to work through scenarios in their heads and ask, "What would I do if?" And I we only discuss calls with a negative outcome we're severely limiting our case studies. More often than not we get it right. Discussing calls like this gives department A the ability to learn or strategize from the experiences of department B.

I believe that one of the studies to which you refer was completed right here in NY by and for the State Police. At that time they found that an amber rear facing light reduced the instances of rear end collisions with SP patrol cars. It had nothing to do with front facing lights so the issue of yielding to amber isn't an issue at all. If you're running with any kind of warning lights / devices on a privately owned vehicle I hope all you i's are dotted and T's crossed. If you get into an accident (as was just the case in a nearby department) you'll be finding out the hard way what the law is and insurance covers. Be smart, be safe, drive carefully!

Date: 07-09-10 Time: 0100hrs Location: North Broadway X Lamartine Ave/Cottage Place Gardens Units: 4th PCT Description: Male dropped off at St. Joseph's Hospital with numerous stab wounds Writer: Chris192

That would require action on the part of the legislature to designate them authorized emergency vehicles. Given the level of dysfunction in Albany and lack of a budget 4 months after it was due, I wouldn't hold my breath.

The Yonkers fire was above ground outdoors and they were able to use foam. I don't know where the White Plains fire was but I "heard" that it was either below ground or in a vault. Perhaps someone can expand on this with some real info...

Truly disgraceful that they're decimating city services, the quality of life, and property values like this. Stay strong YFD, YPD and other departments!

It's not novel and it's not unique to New Orleans. http://www.firegrantsupport.com/content/html/safer/Awards09.aspx Isn't there a limit to the duration of the grants after which the municipality must continue paying for the FFs?

There was also the funeral for FDNY/Rye FF Scott Seaver who died over the weekend. That would explain the vans carrying FF and other FDNY personnel/vehicles along Mamaroneck Avenue. Mutual aid from FDNY is not standard practice within Westchester, even in jurisdictions that border da Bronx. As others have already stated, it has nothing to do with the layoffs but rather the need for Purple-K and the lack of that resource within Westchester County. As was noted, it takes a great many approvals for resources to leave NYC. As for the purple-K: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple-K It allows you to fight the fire in energized electrical equipment.

Illegal for just fire districts or other entities as well?

Thanks for the clarification. I'm glad it's working out for you guys.

Does the member receive a 1099 from the agency for this "income"? Doesn't that screw up their taxes since nothing is being withheld from this? Double pulled? What's that mean. I hope it doesn't mean riding like a clown car with a crew of four or five. Trip sheets (PCR's in NY) should be filled out completely and correctly regardless of compensation. That's always been a pet peeve of mine (right ALSFF?) and if someone needs to be compensated to do it right they should get a job at WalMart.

Date: 07-06-10 Time: 0100 (about) Location: 77 Locust Hill Avenue Frequency: YPD Units Operating: YPD Weather Conditions: hot Description Of Incident: Six people shot, two fatally. Investigation ongoing. Reporters: Writer: Chris192 http://www.lohud.com/article/20100706/NEWS02/7060353/2-dead-four-wounded-in-overnight-Yonkers-shooting

Forgive the cynicism but $5 per call/drill? What incentive is that? They get one beer (half at Yankee Stadium), half a pack of cigarettes, or almost 2 gallons of gas for going on a fire call. How is this going to improve personnel recruitment and retention?