helicopper

Well said. The article doesn't explain anything but is trying to stir something up with a sensational headline. All the victims were at the hospital by the time this occurred so I don't see the newsworthiness. It sounds like the FF has/had issues but he retired so it is all a moot point.

The bottom line is there is absolutely no accountability. There are no oversight boards exclusive of the agencies themselves that mandate a certain level of performance and hold agencies accountable to deliver it. If the standard is patient contact within 8 minutes of the call 95% of the time (illustrative only - not intended to start a debate on response times) and an agency consistently fails to meet that standard, there should be repercussions. Unfortunately, in our world they keep taxing and spending and buying vehicles or building buildings - for what? They're not doing the job. One town board actually gets reports from the VFD and VAC at each monthly town board meeting but the reports tell nothing of how well the service is being provided of if it is cost-effective. So the town board really has no idea whether or not the services are being well provided.

No need, there was already a coffee maker on-scene and D&D up the street opened at 0500.

Just to clarify, the IA is a synopsis of the job not in any way a chronological accounting as you sometimes see. I'm glad the subject of the water main break(s) came up. Can someone from NR advise if that caused any issues on the fireground? It was a long night for the NRFD and I'm glad nobody was hurt battling this.

The Henry family's statement is interesting reading - attached. Also attached is the DA's press release. BH170439214.pdf BH170438214.pdf

Date: 02-14-11 Time: 0124 Location: Union Baptist Church on Main Street Frequency: NRFD, NRPD Units Operating: NRFD all first-line apparatus (Engines 21, 22, 23, 24, & 25, Ladders 11, 12, 13 and Rescue 4) plus spare/reserve apparatus staffed by recalled personnel, Larchmont FD, Pelham FD, Pelham Manor FD, Greenville FD, Fairview FD, Hartsdale FD, Mamaroneck FD, White Plains FD, NRPD, Con Ed Weather Conditions: cloudy, cold Description Of Incident: Fire in a church under renovation. Second alarm upon arrival. Fifth alarm with fire through the roof and evacuations of neighboring buildings. Reporters: helicopper Writer: helicopper

What if you don't know its a haz-mat call until you get there with a bunch of junior and exterior firefighters? Then what?

What is the organization of Dutchess County DER? Coordinator Subordinate Managers for Fire/EMS/Emergency Management/Communications???? Or what?

THANK YOU!!! I was waiting for that. Sheesh.

Because they WANT to as is their right to do...aka freedom of choice. I've lost count as well and yes I may be on the ropes but no KO yet. Ding...round 10 Cogs It is not the IAFF that is saying that you cannot volunteer for your employer - it is the Department of Labor. The DOL via the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) states this and it is not because they are anti-volunteer, it is to protect the rights of all involved. Employees could be "compelled" to volunteer against their will, employees could claim volunteer hours worked should be paid at an overtime rate, etc. etc. etc. They didn't just pull it out of the air, it was developed with good reason. We're truly beating the proverbial dead horse here and this last page is nothing but a circular argument. Cogs, the volunteers who left your department left. It's time to move on and recruit ome new ones. You may have a bona fide ax to grind over the 12 members who you're talking about but this is not solely about Stamford and its patently absurd quagmire of disjointed service(s). The IAFF is not solely responsible for the declining numbers of volunteers, there's much more to it than that. Please, for the sake of everyone here, let's agree to disagree and move on!

Several good points and questions here. You're absolutely right that a "lift assist" is not an emergency and nobody should be using lights and siren to get there. With regard to you second question, I'm not sure if you're calling "lift assists" medical emergencies and I think you're not because of your prior comment so I'll comment on both sides. Anyone could respond to a lift assist as it is not a medical emergency. If they get there and ask, "are you OK?" and the response is "yes, I just can't get up (or I can't lift grandpa by myself)", I don't know what the issue would be. I can't speak for why FD would respond to medical emergencies if they have no medical training but the PD may be responding to insure scene safety, insure that no crime occurred, complete a required report, protect the municipality from liability (sidewalk falls, incidents on municipal property, etc.), or it may simply be the "way that jurisdiction does things". I can think of several jurisdictions that send PD on everything and complete an aided report on everything regardless of where it occurred. As with the point on use of lights and siren, FD and PD going to a "lift assist" aren't going on a medical call, they're going on a service call. I'm not sure what your angle is here. Are you suggesting that lift assists are medical calls and should get a full EMS response? Is there a problem with the PD or FD responding to these service calls?

We will leave it at this: Happy 100th Birthday, Ronald Reagan!

We needn't get into a debate over the resumes of past presidents. The thread was started to commemorate what would have been the 100th birthday of President Ronald Reagan. He was one of only 44 people in history to hold that title and he held it for two terms, only about half the others can make that claim. It is not necessary to argue about who was the best president. Let's just recognize the birth date of a commander-in-chief and distinguished citizen who served his country well. Happy Birthday, President Reagan.

It's not as simple as applying. You still have to be hired off the civil service list so you may have been to the academy, gotten your CPAT, but if you're number 57 on the list you have to wait until 56 other guys get canvassed. Unless/until civil service comes up with a preferred list for prior training - which may be the way to make this viable - you could invest all that time and money in the training and still not get hired.

It isn't selective enforcement. Telling a union firefighter not to volunteer in another union FD is not selective. It's simply an effort to avoid conflict and protect the interests of their members. Much the same way a VFD screens its applicants before accepting a prospective member? Isn't that selective hiring? The IAFF isn't forcing anyone to hire more career FF's. That's a really skewed way of viewing their position. The IAFF has a mandate to protect its membership - all of them. As for volunteering, are there any documented cases of a VFD being forced to hire career FF's because a career FF didn't/wouldn't/couldn't volunteer? The disparities and separation exist simply because of the nature in which the paid and volunteer sectors provide their services? Sorry, cogs, I've been reading threads here and elsewhere and I hardly think we can all anything simple in the comparison of career and volunteer FDs. antiquefirelt does a great job of highlighting what is probably the biggest bone of contention, the different training standards for career and volunteer (at least in NY it's a pretty big difference). Do you mean to tell me that the volunteer lobby will increase its minimum training standards to meet the career standard? If that's the case why haven't they done so already? Is the volunteer lobby so organized that it has actually approached the IAFF with a unified voice and asked to be included in their organization? The IAFF represents members who pay for said representation. In your plan for a career and volunteer IAFF do the volunteers pay for their representation? So, let's see if we can pick out the components here... RECRUITMENT TRAINING STAFFING RESPONSE TIME OPERATIONS BUDGET/FINANCE ACCOUNTABILITY Right off the bat, the differences jump out at you. Until these mammoth differences are reduced or eliminated how can you ever expect a single association to represent all the FF?

The politicians are not to blame on this one (and thats tough for me to say). NYS has minimum standards for career firefighters, because of the lobbying efforts of the NYSPFF. FASNY has lobbied for decades against minimum standards for volunteers. The politicians have only done what the fire service ask/lobbied for. How is it unfunded? NYS provides the training at no cost to the firefighters and very minimal cost to volunteer fire depts. (often just a material fee and transportation costs). It is very disapointing that PESH is so minimal in its ability to push depts forward. I think this case will be the same, but potential litigation may convince communities to do the right thing, mandated or not. The politicians are not to blame on this one (and thats tough for me to say). NYS has minimum standards for career firefighters, because of the lobbying efforts of the NYSPFF. FASNY has lobbied for decades against minimum standards for volunteers. The politicians have only done what the fire service ask/lobbied for. I'm really surprised that this hasn't generated more discussion. I have to ask how is training an unfunded mandate? If you want to be a firefighter don't you have to be trained for it? What FF training courses aren't available via the OFPC or County? As for NFPA, meeting their standards isn't a mandate (unless the judge and jury say so) and OSHA training can almost all be completed in-house (except perhaps for some things like physicals and fit-testing) at a minimal expense. What has FASNY (or other similar organizations) done to improve the conditions for a firefighter in NYS? (these are questions not accusations - I don't know the answers which is why I'm asking)

There are a lot of "prohibitions" in employment. Some seem reasonable while others seem unreasonable; it really is in the eye of the beholder. For example, many law enforcement officers are prohibited from working security jobs or jobs that require the carrying of a firearm. Isn't that the same thing as not being allowed to be an FF in two different places? How about not being allowed to own or have an interest in an establishment licensed by the State Liquor Authority? How about police officers in NYS not being allowed to live outside NYS? There's a crushing prohibition when you consider taxes here in the empire state. If you want the job, you live within the prohibitions. It's your choice so I don't think anyone is infringing on your liberty or pursuit of happiness.

We look at rooftops all day long but without a reference to know which ones are potentially at risk we'd be at a loss to identify the problem ones. Sure, if one looks like it has an ice dam and a mountain of snow/ice on it we can call that out but other than that.... A roof is a roof is a roof.

I respectfully disagree. After the one year (or two year) CON that is automatically issued to a municipality, if the CON is contested by other certificate holders during the CON hearing, they will have to demonstrate that there is a need that is currently unfilled. I believe that MLSS would have a pretty persuasive argument in this regard. This just happened in Utica and the FD was denied their CON by the regional council and they lost their appeal to the State Council. It went on for a couple of years and cost thousands of dollars to appeal. So their handling of the work is not an automatic "pass" in the CON process.

Nobody said that MLSS doesn't make money in Newburgh but their revenue is exclusively from billing patients for services rendered and hoping to collect from insurance companies/Medicaid/Medicare etc. The City does not fund the program with funds from the tax levy. This means that MLSS eats stand-by calls, unfounded responses, etc. where no patient is transported.

A whole lot of new members are now posting IA's and that is excellent news for the forum. However, a lot of these posts are being made without following the guidelines that have long been established concerning IA titles and content. I urge anyone (new members and veterans alike) to review the content in the section linked below to review our policies on IA's, their format, appropriate topic titles, and content. If you have a question, please contact a member of the staff. http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/forum/138-information-for-incident-alert-writers/ Thank you!

I don't know how "informal" it is but the agreement is one of zero cost to the City (thanks to the members who clarified that for me). That makes it nearly impossible for me to believe that the city could save any money by going from a zero cost commercial service to a fire-based municipal system. The City of Newburgh would also have to apply for a Certificate of Need (CON) through the Department of Health and that would be certainly opposed by all the services who can operate in Orange County, most notably the current service provider.

I have no horse in this race so this is not personal. How would the FD takeover of EMS save money for the city? They would have to staff ambulances in addition to the minimal fire coverage they currently provide and probably require more personnel with attendant salaries, benefits and pensions. How many of their members are paramedics? How many of them are EMT's? How much EMS experience do they have? If they've never been doing EMS and suddenly jump into it there is a legitimate concern about the quality of care that would be received. Given that the FD is pathetically under-staffed for fire suppression, they should be lobbying to do that better and not expand into another discipline for which they have no experience, no resources, and no money. I hope you're not surprised that MLSS made a pitch against it. The FD proposal would cost EMS professionals their jobs and arguably, based upon provider experience, reduce the quality of care. Does the City pay MLSS under the current EMS contract? Does anyone know how much $$ and for what number of resources? That information would help make this a more informed discussion too.

http://www.lohud.com...e/2010110201028 http://www.lohud.com/article/20110202/NEWS01/102020327/Schools%20hit%20with%20+'perfect%20storm+'%20of%20aid%20cuts+,%20tax-cap%20plan http://www.lohud.com...on%20opposition Cuomo 2011 Budget Briefing Book.pdf

RIP Loren, thank you for your service!