helicopper

Your assertion was that the PD is trying to perform an FD function and we were merely pointing out that PD performed these services first in many communities thereby refuting your point as it could be argued that the FD's started to perform. What in the emergency services is based strictly upon need? There are many more duplicative resources especially in Westchester County. Nobody suggested that history and tradition dictate our roles; we merely highlighted a contrarian viewpoint. On what standards should we base these needs? I wish we did more needs assessments to determine what was needed vs. what is popular or more cool. Having been one of the officers to which you're referring, I will argue that the WCPD ESU could perform most extrications very well regardless of the unit staffing. The tool is really a one-person job anyway and additional resources/support could always be requested. One of the toughest extrications I ever worked, I worked with an EMS supervisor from a commercial EMS and not the FD. I'll counter your hostage argument with what happens when FD is on a fire and a pin job comes in or vice versa? I don't think they're competing and the 289 Nep scaffolding job proves that point. PD and FD worked well together. Yup, that's who I meant. SWAT may be one function of ESU but ESU generally performs many other services besides SWAT. The ESU or CIU trucks in Westchester County do much more than just SWAT. LAPD SWAT is just that, SWAT. We've discussed this at length in other threads and I think the consensus was no, they shouldn't all be cross-trained. What differences are you referring to? Your initial post was construed by many, myself included, to be rather critical of cops in NY. I, and others, have responded to dispute your assertions and have done so factually and respectfully. The discussion has also morphed from a comparison of police in Texas and New York to who should provide rescue services in Westchester County and it is slanted against existing PD units. I wanted to give you a negative rep point because I don't think the initial post articulated your position well and when someone has to start it with a disclaimer that you're not being critical it is generally because they are. If you want to discuss regional differences in law enforcement let's do that but let's not do so while simultaneously insinuating that cops in NY are somehow less than their peers in Texas. Finally, your last remark seems to be hlghly inflammatory. What exactly do you mean with that remark?

Half the FD is already gone and now the PD is getting the slash and burn method of municipal economics. The city will not be able to cover it's own work so it will not be able to provide services to other communities on a mutual basis so they're going to push the cost fo their services out to other communities. OR the state police will have to take over policiing in Camden and people statewide will have to support the failure of the city to do it's own job. No matter what your politics, party, ideology, this is a recipe for disaster.

I've been a Law Enforcement Dispatcher in NY, and a Texas certified Law Enforcement Dispatcher here in Texas. my father was a police officer and ran a police supply store, so growing up I was always around "old school" Police Officers who couldn't imagine todays world. And a large number of my friends are Police Officers. And, as a citizen, I'd rather have a police officer here ASAP if I got robbed, instead of having them delayed because they are duplicating the services of the FD. Where I used to live, a lot of the time, the cops were tied up doing EMS and the rest trying to fill in the gaps. Down here, I can't leave my house and go anywhere without seeing a police officer on patrol. Not just here, but other places I have visited, i.e. Los Angeles, where "ESU" has another name...SWAT. Exactly. But why do they have to be cross trained if there is already an agency providing the service? Unless it enhances manpower for that agency. Why is it healthy? All I've seen it do is breed hate and ego. Agree, but shouldn't be that way. Your agency should get funding based on it's core responsibilities, not just duplicate services to get grant money and waste it. All and all, these grants don't come from anywhere. They come out of our taxes. I can see Law Enforcement doing Search and Rescue and other types of rescue related to policing, but don't duplicate FD services. VERY true. But Cops want to do cop stuff, and firefighters want to do fire stuff. Cops can grow into and do all sorts of fun Law Enforcement things like SWAT, Aviation, Marine, Detectives, K-9, Crime Scene, Instructors, Community Policing, etc etc. Firefighters can go onto be officers, work specialized units, arson investigation, fire prevention, intructors, etc. All of which keeps the respective jobs hands full. And cops use grants to buy cop stuff, and firefighters use grants to buy firefighter stuff. As I said, it's a very different mentality. I don't understand anymore why there is such competition to fill each other's roles when there is enough to do already. Another example is internal with PD's. County PD has a large number of resources and experts to offer agencies, but yet some departments still feel the need to duplicate their specialized services. I love cops, I love firefighters, it's just a breath of fresh air down here to see a cop actually loving being a cop and nothing else. There are differences in many things as you move from region to region in the United States; income, accents, history, culture, politics, demographics, etc., etc., etc. The question you raise is not merely applicable to law enforcement. There are vast differences between New York and Texas. I don't think the differences are as great as you believe nor do I think you properly articulated your argument without disparaging cops in NY and the northeast. I think there is something to be said for the anti-police, anti-government sentiment in the northeast being a contributing factor to your supposition. I think as the country tried to become more politically correct and public service changed from being a calling to a secure job with benefits, we lost some of the service focus that contributed to law enforcement being what it used to be. There are still many hard-chargers in civil service but there are now an equal number of deadbeats just studying for promotional exams with no concept of the job and/or using the stability to advance their education for their next job. You're flat out wrong about some things. Cops in ESU aren't trying to be firefighters and who says that rescue is a fire function? ESU predates many of the FD rescue resources in Westchester County. Yonkers E-rigs of the 80's were the first paramedics in the city and had the only extrication equipment for many years. The County PD ran an ESU that provided extrication services all over the county before a lot of FD's got their own hurst tools. ESU is not the same as SWAT either. The LAPD runs SWAT but they don't do most of the things that ESU cops do - it is an apples and oranges comparison. In Jersey City, extrications are performed by EMS not fire or PD. White Plains has a police / fire special operations command that works collaboratively. Duplicating resources? Are you kidding me? You really think that ESU in the couple of cities that have them in Westchester are the duplicative resources and squandering the funding that exists for emergency services. Hmmm, the 59 fire departments, 43 police departments, 60 or so school districts are definitely not duplicative. Who says that EMS is a fire function? PD is an first responder and in many places they are the only BLSFR that responds. We've already covered in other threads that BLSFR is not strictly limited to PD or FD exclusively. OK, who decides what the core responsibilities are? What do you do when an agency can't/won't/doesn't fulfill it's core responsibilites? Competition exists on many levels in public service and it can be healthy. There are plenty of examples of intra-disciplinary rivalries that are unhealthy; you're broad sweeping generalizations about inter-disciplinary relationships and responsibilities are way off base. Pity there isn't a negative rep button anymore. Comparing patrol cops in Texas with ESU cops in NY or asserting that certain functions don't have cross-over between disciplines is way off base. There should be collaboration and less division and that's not strictly a PD/FD thing.

So true. A good decision by the court despite the offensive nature of the protected expression. On the plus side, the protesters were held to 1000 feet from the funeral and the plaintiff testified that he only saw the tops of the signs and not their content.

Awesome work YFD! Glad everyone's OK.

And a Viking funeral.

A few shots from the exposure.... exposure.... which side would you call this? These shots don't do the LDH lays justice. There's a LOT of hose out there to be picked up. Glad everyone is OK!

Big fire! We could see the smoke from Yonkers, Peekskill and Danbury.

Your best bet is to consult the human resources or civil service office for the jurisdiction where you're seeking employment. They can tell you exactly what all the requirements are and what your options will be for color vision issues. All I know for sure is that you can be disqualified for color blindness.

PFD, while an interesting idea it is not practical.. It would also mean that popular members could get away with violating the rules and lesser known or unpopular members would get the boot. The rules are the rules and the staff is here to enforce them when necessary. It is not about popularity. Rest assured that the staff takes such action very seriously and decisions to remove a member are not taken lightly.

All, It is the policy of EMTBravo not to discuss administrative or member issues in the forums but rather privately via e-mail or PM. If you have an issue or a question, please address it to one of the staff in this manner. Threads or posts questioning moderator actions or member issues will be removed as it is inappropriate to discuss them in public. Over the past 24 hours there have been a variety of different issues and actions by members and staff alike. This is all under review by the staff and individuals involved will be communicated with directly not via these forums. Please be patient and allow the staff to review what has transpired and take appropriate action. Thank you for your cooperation. helicopper on behalf of the staff

I don't think this is as simple as choosing to join the FOP for $40 and getting the same level of services provided by most PBA's. There are many variables, first is that the PBA's are the collective bargaining units for most police departments and it would take a lot of effort to change that to the FOP. It isn't like an individual can opt out of your PBA and into the FOP and receive the same benefits/protection/services. As for FOP members getting "anything they want" in a contract, I'd say show me the contract. This is probably the worst I've ever seen collective bargaining or the relationship between unions and municipalities in the 22 years I've been a government employee and NY is one of the stronger places for benefits. There are plenty of police agencies represented by PBA's that have pretty impressive contracts. This is one of the reasons for the anti-union, anti-police problem we face. There are benefits to broader representation and larger associations and there are several groups in NY that are representing or assisting collectives of PBA's to increase their strength. I'm not sure how the FOP would play into that for NY PBA's. Professional courtesy is just that. There are cops in PBA's that exemplify professional and do whatever is within their power for others in the family and there are FOP members who would write or collar a cop from their own county so I don't think it is PBA or FOP that makes the difference here. Again, It is many different things influencing this. Sorry that I couldn't answer one way or the other. I think there are lots of different moving parts to the union, collective bargaining, muncipal relationship and some are stronger than others so some prosper while others languish.

In the most tragic type of lesson, we learn from both these incidents that during two high-risk fugitive warrant executions, SWAT teams were not called until after it was too late. We've all probably seen the same dramatic TV shows where investigating officers pop their trunks, don body armor and tactical holsters, and then bust into a home to arrest drug dealers, fugitives or whomever. It may make for good TV but the reality is that these are not sound police tactics. Police officers and detectives are not trained in SWAT tactics nor do they routinely practice the dynamic entries that make SWAT teams successful. Perhaps some of these "task forces" do receive some training but that is not their primary focus and they shouldn't be executing warrants without SWAT. These same investigators wouldn't allow a patrol officer to interrogate their suspect or apply for a search warrant but they have no problem performing skills outside their area of expertise. I've seen instances of the same phenomenon locally where non-SWAT cops execute warrants and break down doors (if they need to break down the door, they should probably use SWAT but that's just me). They maintain that it's their investigation so they're doing the warrant. I've even heard criticism of the SWAT team because they have a different priority than the investigators. Meanwhile trained tactical operators sit idly by or could be mobilized to do the entry for them but egos or attitudes prevail and complacency rules the day. These two incidents in Florida should stand as a vivid reminder to all of us in law enforcement that high-risk warrants are high-risk and that is exactly what we have SWAT teams for. I'm pretty sure that there are enough SWAT assets to execute these warrants without putting non-tactical cops at risk doing something for which they are not trained and improperly equipped. Don't let the deaths of these heroes be in vain. Learn from their tragic stories and don't repeat their mistakes. Stay safe and God bless those who give us these lessons learned. Read more: http://www.miamihera...##ixzz1EWsFZZWY

I'm sure I will draw the ire of some with these comments but having experienced some of these things first-hand, I have some strong feelings on the subject. The need for a second medic should be a rare call because a paramedic should be competent and able to handle a single patient without a second paramedic. That said, there are always those calls where IV access or intubation is challenging and the condition of the patient warrants the expeditious handling that two medics may be able to provide. In cases where an intubation is difficult or suitable IV access can't be obtained, the benefit of an EMT-Intermediate on scene will be limited. As was pointed out, in this area EMT-I's don't get a lot of opportunity to hone their skills and they would not be my first choice to back me up if I couldn't get a tube or line in someone. This is not to say that an EMT-I is not valuable or their skills useful in some areas (St. Lawrence County probably has more EMT-I's than P's but Westchester is the opposite). I suspect that the EMT-I program never really caught because we have people who are resistant to the length of the EMT-B course so taking another course of nearly the same length with no prospects for employment or skills practice had no appeal. Another big problem is that there are some skills that paramedics don't get to practice often enough to maintain their own proficiency so they're not going to let the EMT-I perform them. As for people being able to assist the medic with EKG's, setting up meds or IV's, or other stuff, there was a time that we called those indispensible assistants EMT's. You don't need to be an EMT-I to put electrodes on a patient and set up the monitor while the medic does other things. EMT's routinely used to do most of the things that are being discussed here and I've never understood why that skill set diminished as much as it did. I guess turnover, apathy, delayed response times, and other things all contributed to what I'll call the demise of these kinds of EMT's and that's a shame. I worked with EMT's who were able to do almost everything I could do as the medic right up to the venipuncture or intubation or other invasive skills. They were crackerjack EMT's and truly a pleasure to work with. Unfortunately we have EMT's out there now (and I'm confident that they're still the minority) who are barely competent in their basic skills so helping a medic is stretch. Good topic!

In keeping with forum policies, can you please cite the law to which you're referring in your post so others may reference it directly. Thank you.

<br /><br /><br />A lot has changed in 10 years but there are probably still parts of the country that will take some time to assemble and deploy a tactical team. The local PD has the responsibility to come up with a plan to deal with such situations. Today the SORT (reincarnation of MRT) has much better response times even to remote areas and more and more counties have their own tactical teams. We're not talking about remote areas in these two cases though. We're talking about two major metropolitan areas with available tactical teams that were inexplicably not utilized.

<br /><br /><br />A lot has changed in 10 years but there are probably still parts of the country that will take some time to assemble and deploy a tactical team. The local PD has the responsibility to come up with a plan to deal with such situations. Today the SORT (reincarnation of MRT) has much better response times even to remote areas and more and more counties have their own tactical teams. We're not talking about remote areas in these two cases though. We're talking about two major metropolitan areas with available tactical teams that were inexplicably not utilized.

I hope and pray that we never have to do this again but since I know that this world makes that dream impossible, I hope we don't have to do it again for a very, very long time.

It is staffed with a supervisor and an appropriate number of trained personnel for the mission required. There's no hard and fast number (except a driver).

In Memoriam – NEW YORK'S HEROES Police Officer Gary Stymiloski Westchester County Parkway Police Department End of Watch: Sunday, February 24, 1985 Tour of Duty: Not available Badge Number: 157 Cause of Death: Traffic Stop Date of Incident: Sunday, February 24, 1985 Weapon Used: Not available Suspect Info: Alex Mengel who was shot and killed trying to escape from police custody while being transported back from Canada where he fled after killing PO Stymiloski and a civilian in an unrelated incident. Police Officer Gary Stymiloski died from injuries sustained when he was shot during a traffic stop alongside the Saw Mill River Parkway in Yonkers NY. A lifetime resident of Yonkers, Officer Stymiloski was a graduate of Gorton High School. After a brief period in the private sector, Gary embarked upon a career in law enforcement. His first position was as a Police Officer with the Sloatsburg, New York Police Department. On September 27, 1982, Gary became one of the first Police Officers with the newly formed Westchester County Department of Public Safety Service. Gary's talents as an officer were recognized early. He was assigned to the narcotics squad of the Detective Unit and worked undercover assignments. His work was exemplified by winning the title of Police Officer of the Year 1984 by the Westchester County Police Pulaski Association. When Gary's assignment to the Detective Division concluded, he was assigned to the Patrol Division. He will be missed by all who knew and loved him.

One of the problems is that too often people don't know what they don't know and they proclaim themselves to be a resource that, in reality based upon measurable standards and credentialiing, they are not. The water tower analogy is a good one and I saw first hand how this problem can develop. A jurisdiction tried to send a "Type 1 IMT" to relieve a Type 2 IMT that had timed out and was being returned home during a hurricane. The "Type 1 IMT" was not an IMT at all and had ZERO credentials to be called anything let alone Type 1. But they put themselves out there and claimed to be something that they were not. There was no malice involved, they wanted to help (as was described in the prior analogies), but the people who called for and expected a Type 1 resource were left holding the bag. There needs to be more accountability and resources need to be properly credentialed. Until that happens: CAVEAT EMPTOR!!!

Thanks for the inside story!

Two different animals!

I haven't properly articulated my position if that's what you think about my comments. I'm not saying FDNY can't afford it, although finances are a big concern. Air operations are a very complicated venture and to propose such a unit for maybe 30 responses a year is a losing proposition. Well established aviation units are being shut down all over the country or are fighting for their existence. The battle for the 5th FF on engines shows just how bad things are in the city right now so I'm surprised that the helicopter idea came up again. I think there are better ways for the FDNY to insure that they have the resource when they need it besides buying a helicopter and hanging the "aviation shingle" outside the door. And, in fairness to all those involved (and I wasn't), don't minimize a complicated mountain rescue by calling it a "hiker pick-up". That's not fair to the victims or their rescuers. Back to your original question, it was a matter of risk vs. benefit and a recon flight wasn't worth the risk given the weather conditions. It could have been a perp search in the 75 Pct, it would have been turned down also. This is not a PD-FD thing.

The winds at Floyd Bennett and JFK were topping out around 55-60 knots that night. The flight to Storm King must have been really interesting even in the SAR equipped Bell 412. I'm reasonably sure that all non life-safety flights were grounded that night, I know for sure that ours were. Is there really an argument that recon is a lower priority than rescuing people off a cliff? Point 1 - I've argued this here before; there is no FD in the northeast US that can sustain an aviation unit by itself especially in this economy (there's a thread all about this on Bravo somewhere already). There are a lot of PD's that can't sustain aviation units either, that's not a dig on the fire service. Point 2 - You guys are fighting to restore the fifth firefighter to your engines, a position that is sorely needed, why would you want to divert money to a helicopter and sfaffing? Point 3 - There's no such thing as one helicopter if you want to maintain 24/7 coverage so you have to have more than one aircraft. This doesn't account for staffing which again is a big deal. Recreational pilots are not police/fire/EMS pilots so having a few pilots on staff doesn't mean you have flight crews. What is done on multi-alarm fires during inclement weather (fog, ice, heavy snow)? You do without the air recon chief, right? Wind is no different, it's also a weather phenomenon that can make flight unsafe. Likewise, the weather conditions along the coast in Brooklyn were actually worse than they were inland so the flight upstate was good while the flight locally was ill-advised (no pun intended). This is sometimes the case even within the city itself; there have been cases where we're flying in lower Westchester and the Bronx is clear but they're grounded in Brooklyn due to fog/reduced visibility.